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How stupid can someone be?
On Wed, 16 May 2012 15:17:28 +1000, Trevor wrote:
"Stefan Patric" wrote in message ... And Clinton, who created the financial mess the world now finds itself in. Boy! Do you have a distorted view of history? Not distorted at all. The Clinton administration while not actually "creating" the world recession is faulted with setting up the circumstances for it through one of his "economic" programs. That program was to enable people who couldn't really afford to buy a home, that is "lower income" workers, to buy one through government credits, incentives and mortgage security guarantees to lenders. Anyone with any common sense saw this as a bad idea, but idealistic career politicians are not known for having common sense. This started the "housing boom" in the US, and the rapid appreciation of property values to the point where even those who had no mortgages couldn't afford the property taxes on their free and clear property. Property taxes are calculated on the market value of a home and not its purchase price. And has *nothing* to do with the amount charged since the "cents in the dollar figure" is simply calculated on how much the government thinks they need and can get away with. As house prices go up, the "cents in the dollar" rate charged for taxes can, and should come down. Whether it does or not is up to the greed of government OF THE DAY. You need to brush up on how Property Taxes are calculated. Property taxes are not the same as Personal Property taxes. Basically, in the US, the formula is: ((Home's value * Assessment Rate) - Exemption Credit) * Property Tax Rate = Property Tax When the Market Value of a home increases, the tax increases. It can't do otherwise unless the Assessment and Tax rates are LOWERED or the Exemption INCREASED. All three of which require a time consuming legislative process to change. And in some states in the US, a vote by the people in a general election, too. Plus, the amount of change and the maximum that can be charged are usually limited by law. (Another bad government concept.) As the housing market "busted" major investors who had gotten on the gravy wagon for the big profits were jumping off, en masse, and in the process brought down the US economy. And as the world economy is joined at the hip with the US' . . . So, yes, it was Clinton who "enabled" the fall. . What a load of crap, it was the total lack of regulation of the banks "sub prime" scams that mainly caused the global meltdown. In Australia we had the same housing boom, which still exists, without our economy collapsing, not yet anyway. And if it does it will only be because of the global problems, mainly caused by US banking greed and it's total lack of regulation, finally impacting our economy. I'm not familiar with Australia's economy or its banking laws, so I can't speak on that, but in the US, in hindsight analysis, it was determined that a piece of legislation championed by then President Clinton was the single pebble dropped into the sea that became the tidal wave which devastated the US and, ultimately, the world's economies. This was reported in newspapers, magazines, TV, etc., over and over (with extended commentary) for weeks a few years ago at the height of the recession here. As an aside: At what rate are housing prices currently appreciating in Australia? In the US, during the boom, in the areas greatest affected, home prices were increasing on average 25% to 33% per year. Middle class homes were selling the same day they were listed (or the next), many for cash, that is, no loan. I had a friend who bought a place (with a loan) just as the boom was beginning and sold it about 4 years later, about a year prior to the bust, for almost triple what he paid for it. Stef |
#2
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How stupid can someone be?
"Stefan Patric" wrote in message ... You need to brush up on how Property Taxes are calculated. Property taxes are not the same as Personal Property taxes. Basically, in the US, the formula is: ((Home's value * Assessment Rate) - Exemption Credit) * Property Tax Rate = Property Tax When the Market Value of a home increases, the tax increases. It can't do otherwise unless the Assessment and Tax rates are LOWERED or the Exemption INCREASED. All three of which require a time consuming legislative process to change. And in some states in the US, a vote by the people in a general election, too. Plus, the amount of change and the maximum that can be charged are usually limited by law. OK, over here they just make them up to suit the budget each year. Seems your system sucks big time, so blame whoever made it law. Although ours is no better when greedy governments can easily decide to increase rates by multiples of the inflation rate every year, whether house prices go up OR down :-( I'm not familiar with Australia's economy or its banking laws, so I can't speak on that, but in the US, in hindsight analysis, it was determined that a piece of legislation championed by then President Clinton was the single pebble dropped into the sea that became the tidal wave which devastated the US and, ultimately, the world's economies. This was reported in newspapers, magazines, TV, etc., over and over (with extended commentary) for weeks a few years ago at the height of the recession here. "Determined" by who? And what proof did they use to arrive at that conclusion? Don't believe everything you read in the right wing press! :-) As an aside: At what rate are housing prices currently appreciating in Australia? They are actually fairly static, or falling slightly at the moment (depending on location). The bubble has stopped growing, especially for land prices, but hasn't burst like many other countries since there is still demand, unemployment is low, and construction costs continue to increase, meaning established dwellings haven't dropped too much except for those that were *drastically* overpriced. In the US, during the boom, in the areas greatest affected, home prices were increasing on average 25% to 33% per year. Middle class homes were selling the same day they were listed (or the next), many for cash, that is, no loan. I had a friend who bought a place (with a loan) just as the boom was beginning and sold it about 4 years later, about a year prior to the bust, for almost triple what he paid for it. Ours never went that high, but many doubled in that time, perhaps tripled over about 10 or 12 years. Trevor. |
#3
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How stupid can someone be?
On 5/19/2012 1:19 AM, Trevor wrote:
"Stefan wrote in message ... You need to brush up on how Property Taxes are calculated. Property taxes are not the same as Personal Property taxes. Basically, in the US, the formula is: ((Home's value * Assessment Rate) - Exemption Credit) * Property Tax Rate = Property Tax When the Market Value of a home increases, the tax increases. It can't do otherwise unless the Assessment and Tax rates are LOWERED or the Exemption INCREASED. All three of which require a time consuming legislative process to change. And in some states in the US, a vote by the people in a general election, too. Plus, the amount of change and the maximum that can be charged are usually limited by law. OK, over here they just make them up to suit the budget each year. Seems your system sucks big time, so blame whoever made it law. Although ours is no better when greedy governments can easily decide to increase rates by multiples of the inflation rate every year, whether house prices go up OR down :-( I'm not familiar with Australia's economy or its banking laws, so I can't speak on that, but in the US, in hindsight analysis, it was determined that a piece of legislation championed by then President Clinton was the single pebble dropped into the sea that became the tidal wave which devastated the US and, ultimately, the world's economies. This was reported in newspapers, magazines, TV, etc., over and over (with extended commentary) for weeks a few years ago at the height of the recession here. "Determined" by who? And what proof did they use to arrive at that conclusion? Don't believe everything you read in the right wing press! :-) As an aside: At what rate are housing prices currently appreciating in Australia? They are actually fairly static, or falling slightly at the moment (depending on location). The bubble has stopped growing, especially for land prices, but hasn't burst like many other countries since there is still demand, unemployment is low, and construction costs continue to increase, meaning established dwellings haven't dropped too much except for those that were *drastically* overpriced. In the US, during the boom, in the areas greatest affected, home prices were increasing on average 25% to 33% per year. Middle class homes were selling the same day they were listed (or the next), many for cash, that is, no loan. I had a friend who bought a place (with a loan) just as the boom was beginning and sold it about 4 years later, about a year prior to the bust, for almost triple what he paid for it. Ours never went that high, but many doubled in that time, perhaps tripled over about 10 or 12 years. Trevor. We have an easy to use system of appeals. No lawyer is needed. You may appeal only the basic valuation of your property, or the mathmatics. In the nY area the basic apeals are failry liberal. -- Peter |
#4
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How stupid can someone be?
On Sat, 19 May 2012 15:19:16 +1000, Trevor wrote:
"Stefan Patric" wrote in message ... You need to brush up on how Property Taxes are calculated. Property taxes are not the same as Personal Property taxes. Basically, in the US, the formula is: ((Home's value * Assessment Rate) - Exemption Credit) * Property Tax Rate = Property Tax When the Market Value of a home increases, the tax increases. It can't do otherwise unless the Assessment and Tax rates are LOWERED or the Exemption INCREASED. All three of which require a time consuming legislative process to change. And in some states in the US, a vote by the people in a general election, too. Plus, the amount of change and the maximum that can be charged are usually limited by law. OK, over here they just make them up to suit the budget each year. Seems your system sucks big time, so blame whoever made it law. Although ours is no better when greedy governments can easily decide to increase rates by multiples of the inflation rate every year, whether house prices go up OR down :-( Seems like your system is a lot worse than mine with bureaucrats setting variables at will each year with little or no control. At least with mine, variables and rates can't be changed easily or quickly, or without legislative, and in some places the people's approval. However, the flaw in the calculation is how the Home's Value is determined. One would expect that replacement cost, that is, the cost of actually building that home "today", is the best, but that method is costly. It requires actual periodic appraisals. The most common method, however, and cheapest is comparables or "comps." That is, your home's "value" is what other homes similar to yours in your area have sold for that year. This method, as it's not regulated, in a runaway market results in vastly inflated Home Values, and thus vastly inflated tax bills even when the other variables do not change. That's one of the things that busted the housing market in the US. I'm not familiar with Australia's economy or its banking laws, so I can't speak on that, but in the US, in hindsight analysis, it was determined that a piece of legislation championed by then President Clinton was the single pebble dropped into the sea that became the tidal wave which devastated the US and, ultimately, the world's economies. This was reported in newspapers, magazines, TV, etc., over and over (with extended commentary) for weeks a few years ago at the height of the recession here. "Determined" by who? And what proof did they use to arrive at that conclusion? Economists, financiers, financial analysts, think tanks, even government investigators, etc. Certainly, not your average man on the street opinions. As far as "proof," as in any financial/business investigation, they started with the numbers, and followed the money. Don't believe everything you read in the right wing press! :-) The "press" here--TV, radio and print--is, by and large, very much left leaning. Although, they deny it.;-) And even they reported it pretty much as I stated. Had to or they would have lost credibility. Stef |
#5
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How stupid can someone be?
On 2012-05-21 13:29 , Stefan Patric wrote:
On Sat, 19 May 2012 15:19:16 +1000, Trevor wrote: "Stefan Patric" wrote in message ... You need to brush up on how Property Taxes are calculated. Property taxes are not the same as Personal Property taxes. Basically, in the US, the formula is: ((Home's value * Assessment Rate) - Exemption Credit) * Property Tax Rate = Property Tax When the Market Value of a home increases, the tax increases. It can't do otherwise unless the Assessment and Tax rates are LOWERED or the Exemption INCREASED. All three of which require a time consuming legislative process to change. And in some states in the US, a vote by the people in a general election, too. Plus, the amount of change and the maximum that can be charged are usually limited by law. OK, over here they just make them up to suit the budget each year. Seems your system sucks big time, so blame whoever made it law. Although ours is no better when greedy governments can easily decide to increase rates by multiples of the inflation rate every year, whether house prices go up OR down :-( Seems like your system is a lot worse than mine with bureaucrats setting variables at will each year with little or no control. At least with mine, variables and rates can't be changed easily or quickly, or without legislative, and in some places the people's approval. However, the flaw in the calculation is how the Home's Value is determined. One would expect that replacement cost, that is, the cost of actually building that home "today", is the best, but that method is costly. It requires actual periodic appraisals. The most common method, however, and cheapest is comparables or "comps." That is, your home's "value" is what other homes similar to yours in your area have sold for that year. This method, as it's not regulated, in a runaway market results in vastly inflated Home Values, and thus vastly inflated tax bills even when the other variables do not change. That's one of the things that busted the housing market in the US. I'm not familiar with Australia's economy or its banking laws, so I can't speak on that, but in the US, in hindsight analysis, it was determined that a piece of legislation championed by then President Clinton was the single pebble dropped into the sea that became the tidal wave which devastated the US and, ultimately, the world's economies. This was reported in newspapers, magazines, TV, etc., over and over (with extended commentary) for weeks a few years ago at the height of the recession here. "Determined" by who? And what proof did they use to arrive at that conclusion? Economists, financiers, financial analysts, think tanks, even government investigators, etc. Certainly, not your average man on the street opinions. As far as "proof," as in any financial/business investigation, they started with the numbers, and followed the money. Don't believe everything you read in the right wing press! :-) The "press" here--TV, radio and print--is, by and large, very much left leaning. Although, they deny it.;-) And even they reported it pretty much as I stated. Had to or they would have lost credibility. BS. That was one element (highly supported by Republicans). Time has a good list of "culprits" he http://www.time.com/time/specials/pa...877351,00.html -- "Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities." -Samuel Clemens. |
#6
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How stupid can someone be?
"Stefan Patric" wrote in message ... Seems like your system is a lot worse than mine with bureaucrats setting variables at will each year with little or no control. At least with mine, variables and rates can't be changed easily or quickly, or without legislative, and in some places the people's approval. However, the flaw in the calculation is how the Home's Value is determined. One would expect that replacement cost, that is, the cost of actually building that home "today", is the best, but that method is costly. It requires actual periodic appraisals. The most common method, however, and cheapest is comparables or "comps." That is, your home's "value" is what other homes similar to yours in your area have sold for that year. That is how our homes are valued too, but the "cents in the dollar rate" then applied is simply derived by calculating how much money they want. "Determined" by who? And what proof did they use to arrive at that conclusion? Economists, financiers, financial analysts, think tanks, even government investigators, etc. Certainly, not your average man on the street opinions. As far as "proof," as in any financial/business investigation, they started with the numbers, and followed the money. And they also start with an agenda, and select the data to suit. Don't believe everything you read in the right wing press! :-) The "press" here--TV, radio and print--is, by and large, very much left leaning. You haven't heard of FOX and our expat Rupert Murdoch then :-) Although, they deny it.;-) Dead right, Rupert would be caught dead being associated with the left, unless he gets another $Billion or three! :-) Trevor. |
#7
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How stupid can someone be?
On Tue, 22 May 2012 14:03:22 +1000, Trevor wrote:
[snip] "Determined" by who? And what proof did they use to arrive at that conclusion? Economists, financiers, financial analysts, think tanks, even government investigators, etc. Certainly, not your average man on the street opinions. As far as "proof," as in any financial/business investigation, they started with the numbers, and followed the money. And they also start with an agenda, and select the data to suit. If we're talking politicians and their respective parties, I agree. That's why I take what they purport with a grain of salt. What I do is take what is reported--facts, conclusions, opinions, etc.-- from many sources to arrive at a fairly unbiased, middle of the road overview, then draw my own conclusions. Don't believe everything you read in the right wing press! :-) The "press" here--TV, radio and print--is, by and large, very much left leaning. You haven't heard of FOX and our expat Rupert Murdoch then :-) Of course I have. I didn't say ALL the press are left leaning--some more than others, just the majority. There are still plenty of sources for news that hold balanced, neutral reporting in high esteem. Stef |
#8
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How stupid can someone be?
On Mon, 21 May 2012 14:07:35 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2012-05-21 13:29 , Stefan Patric wrote: On Sat, 19 May 2012 15:19:16 +1000, Trevor wrote: "Stefan Patric" wrote in message ... You need to brush up on how Property Taxes are calculated. Property taxes are not the same as Personal Property taxes. Basically, in the US, the formula is: ((Home's value * Assessment Rate) - Exemption Credit) * Property Tax Rate = Property Tax When the Market Value of a home increases, the tax increases. It can't do otherwise unless the Assessment and Tax rates are LOWERED or the Exemption INCREASED. All three of which require a time consuming legislative process to change. And in some states in the US, a vote by the people in a general election, too. Plus, the amount of change and the maximum that can be charged are usually limited by law. OK, over here they just make them up to suit the budget each year. Seems your system sucks big time, so blame whoever made it law. Although ours is no better when greedy governments can easily decide to increase rates by multiples of the inflation rate every year, whether house prices go up OR down :-( Seems like your system is a lot worse than mine with bureaucrats setting variables at will each year with little or no control. At least with mine, variables and rates can't be changed easily or quickly, or without legislative, and in some places the people's approval. However, the flaw in the calculation is how the Home's Value is determined. One would expect that replacement cost, that is, the cost of actually building that home "today", is the best, but that method is costly. It requires actual periodic appraisals. The most common method, however, and cheapest is comparables or "comps." That is, your home's "value" is what other homes similar to yours in your area have sold for that year. This method, as it's not regulated, in a runaway market results in vastly inflated Home Values, and thus vastly inflated tax bills even when the other variables do not change. That's one of the things that busted the housing market in the US. I'm not familiar with Australia's economy or its banking laws, so I can't speak on that, but in the US, in hindsight analysis, it was determined that a piece of legislation championed by then President Clinton was the single pebble dropped into the sea that became the tidal wave which devastated the US and, ultimately, the world's economies. This was reported in newspapers, magazines, TV, etc., over and over (with extended commentary) for weeks a few years ago at the height of the recession here. "Determined" by who? And what proof did they use to arrive at that conclusion? Economists, financiers, financial analysts, think tanks, even government investigators, etc. Certainly, not your average man on the street opinions. As far as "proof," as in any financial/business investigation, they started with the numbers, and followed the money. Don't believe everything you read in the right wing press! :-) The "press" here--TV, radio and print--is, by and large, very much left leaning. Although, they deny it.;-) And even they reported it pretty much as I stated. Had to or they would have lost credibility. BS. That was one element (highly supported by Republicans). Doesn't mean it wasn't true. Time has a good list of "culprits" he http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/ completelist/0,29569,1877351,00.html In anything as large and as complex as a nation's (or the world's) economy can there be ONE simple cause or person to blame for its failure. However, there can be a catalyst that everything reacts to setting up that failure. Read the "Bill Clinton" entry in link. In the last recession (in the US) of the late '70s and early '80s, that catalyst was the Arab Oil Embargo by the UAE. One little thing, and the dominoes tumbled. Stef |
#9
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How stupid can someone be?
On 2012-05-23 11:05:17 -0700, Stefan Patric said:
On Tue, 22 May 2012 14:03:22 +1000, Trevor wrote: Le Snip You haven't heard of FOX and our expat Rupert Murdoch then :-) Of course I have. I didn't say ALL the press are left leaning--some more than others, just the majority. There are still plenty of sources for news that hold balanced, neutral reporting in high esteem. Stef That almost made me spew my beverage over most of my immediate work area. You include Murdoch, his pit bull Roger Ailes, and FoxNews as a news source that holds balanced and neutral reporting in high esteem? Biased to the right yes. Balanced and neutral? They are as balanced and neutral as any left leaning news source. You would be hard pressed to demonstrate a balanced opinion anywhere in FoxNews reporting. Just because they use the term in their slogan, does not make it so. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#10
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How stupid can someone be?
On 2012-05-23 14:22 , Stefan Patric wrote:
On Mon, 21 May 2012 14:07:35 -0400, Alan Browne wrote: On 2012-05-21 13:29 , Stefan Patric wrote: On Sat, 19 May 2012 15:19:16 +1000, Trevor wrote: "Stefan Patric" wrote in message ... You need to brush up on how Property Taxes are calculated. Property taxes are not the same as Personal Property taxes. Basically, in the US, the formula is: ((Home's value * Assessment Rate) - Exemption Credit) * Property Tax Rate = Property Tax When the Market Value of a home increases, the tax increases. It can't do otherwise unless the Assessment and Tax rates are LOWERED or the Exemption INCREASED. All three of which require a time consuming legislative process to change. And in some states in the US, a vote by the people in a general election, too. Plus, the amount of change and the maximum that can be charged are usually limited by law. OK, over here they just make them up to suit the budget each year. Seems your system sucks big time, so blame whoever made it law. Although ours is no better when greedy governments can easily decide to increase rates by multiples of the inflation rate every year, whether house prices go up OR down :-( Seems like your system is a lot worse than mine with bureaucrats setting variables at will each year with little or no control. At least with mine, variables and rates can't be changed easily or quickly, or without legislative, and in some places the people's approval. However, the flaw in the calculation is how the Home's Value is determined. One would expect that replacement cost, that is, the cost of actually building that home "today", is the best, but that method is costly. It requires actual periodic appraisals. The most common method, however, and cheapest is comparables or "comps." That is, your home's "value" is what other homes similar to yours in your area have sold for that year. This method, as it's not regulated, in a runaway market results in vastly inflated Home Values, and thus vastly inflated tax bills even when the other variables do not change. That's one of the things that busted the housing market in the US. I'm not familiar with Australia's economy or its banking laws, so I can't speak on that, but in the US, in hindsight analysis, it was determined that a piece of legislation championed by then President Clinton was the single pebble dropped into the sea that became the tidal wave which devastated the US and, ultimately, the world's economies. This was reported in newspapers, magazines, TV, etc., over and over (with extended commentary) for weeks a few years ago at the height of the recession here. "Determined" by who? And what proof did they use to arrive at that conclusion? Economists, financiers, financial analysts, think tanks, even government investigators, etc. Certainly, not your average man on the street opinions. As far as "proof," as in any financial/business investigation, they started with the numbers, and followed the money. Don't believe everything you read in the right wing press! :-) The "press" here--TV, radio and print--is, by and large, very much left leaning. Although, they deny it.;-) And even they reported it pretty much as I stated. Had to or they would have lost credibility. BS. That was one element (highly supported by Republicans). Doesn't mean it wasn't true. Doesn't mean a lot of things didn't contribute. What is inane about this thread (where it's ended up) is the polarized (and uninformed) finger pointing - why I posted the Time list below. (In another post, originally - but the truth is inconvenient). Time has a good list of "culprits" he http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/ completelist/0,29569,1877351,00.html In anything as large and as complex as a nation's (or the world's) economy can there be ONE simple cause or person to blame for its failure. However, there can be a catalyst that everything reacts to setting up that failure. Read the "Bill Clinton" entry in link. In the last recession (in the US) of the late '70s and early '80s, that catalyst was the Arab Oil Embargo by the UAE. One little thing, and the dominoes tumbled. By your logic the fall of Adam and Eve is the catalyst. It is collective. But what is worse is the negligence of Bush (Jr.) & Reps in not stopping the runaway mortgage morass which was obvious as early as 2003 (Greenspan did not help - his statements were 'enabling' when he should have used the "irrational exuberance" line again), and in starting a massive $2 - $3T war _without_ raising taxes (as that was politically un-viable - Bush Jr's greatest fear was losing a 2nd term and remembered his father losing his 2nd term as a result of raising taxes). And referring to the Oil Embargo that you mention - what did US politicians do with respect to energy policy once things settled down? Nothing. Instead the CAFE rules were allowed to stagnate with the result that technology advances resulted in increasing horsepower (and vehicle size and weight) rather than reducing consumption for a given horsepower. In the US Wall Street, big-oil, coal, agriculture and the auto industry have huge sway over policy to the detriment the greater good. -- "Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities." -Samuel Clemens. |
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