Backup Advice wanted

For various reasons including a bad sector issue with one of my current
backup drives, I am installing a new primary backup drive.
It is a Seagate 4T, not a mirror. I have decided on Acronis for my BU
software, as it makes incremental images of my C drive, and will also
make incremental BUs of the Data Drive. My current set up is all
programs plus all data, except photo images are on my C drive. All photo
images are on an external USB 3 drive, which is about 75% full. (2T)
I will soon replace the external 2T with a high capacity internal.


Any suggestions are appreciated. Please do not turn this into a flame
war. I will consider any and all suggestions, including different
software, and additional BU drives.






--
PeterN

In article , says...

For various reasons including a bad sector issue with one of my current
backup drives, I am installing a new primary backup drive.
It is a Seagate 4T, not a mirror. I have decided on Acronis for my BU
software, as it makes incremental images of my C drive, and will also
make incremental BUs of the Data Drive. My current set up is all
programs plus all data, except photo images are on my C drive. All photo
images are on an external USB 3 drive, which is about 75% full. (2T)
I will soon replace the external 2T with a high capacity internal.


Any suggestions are appreciated. Please do not turn this into a flame
war. I will consider any and all suggestions, including different
software, and additional BU drives.

Just a suggestion, but you might want to look into Symantec System
Recovery. Note--I hate Symantec as a company and it pains me to make
that suggestion.

The reason I suggest this is that late last year I upgraded a system and
tried the usual "backup, replace disk, restore" process with the result
that nothing I tried, including Acronis, would restore--they all
complained about sector size on the new drive. So I got to thinking--I
had never had a problem with backup on Windows until they abandoned
Backup Exec, so I hunted down the current incarnation of Backup Exec
(which is Symantec System Recovery), ran the trial, and it worked a
treat.

It will also do your incrementals--that particular system is set to do a
full backup once a month and incrementals every day, and also, if a USB
drive is attached when it does its backup, to copy the backup to the USB
drive.

I would go with a disk image including installed software.
Then put *all* data on other drives. The data and the OS
+ software is like the tralier and the tractor. If the tractor
(C drive) dies you can attach a new one and be on your way.
There's no reason to risk the cargo.

That way you can also skip the bloat and work of incremental
backups. You shouldn't need to be backing up C drive again.
Disk imaging is not an incremental thing. That misses the
whole point. Just copy over your relevant App Data folders,
Documents, whatever to backup on a regular basis and leave
your disk image alone until you need to write it back to disk.

I like to disk image (using BootIt), then back up data,
email, etc periodically. That's all on 2 different disks that
are mostly redundant. I also write the backup to CD, then I
occasionally also store those CDs elsewhere. I wouldn't
trust anything to just being on local hard disks.

The vast photo collection should be on some kind
of external backup. If you really want to keep 2-3 TB
then you might want to use an extra hard disk as
remote backup. (Everything I have can fit on a few DVDs,
so I use that method.)
There should also be some order to things. You shouldn't
need to back up 2 TB periodically. You should have some
kind of permanent backup of the vast bulk of it and only
need to back up the new data periodically. So, for instance,
you might store your library on a hard disk and then write
periodic DVDs for new data.

To look at it another way: People have different preferences.
However you do it is up to you, but if it's good backup then
it should be reasonably convenient and you should be able to
lose your computer to theft or electrical surge tomorrow without
it being a disaster.


"PeterN" wrote in message
...
| For various reasons including a bad sector issue with one of my current
| backup drives, I am installing a new primary backup drive.
| It is a Seagate 4T, not a mirror. I have decided on Acronis for my BU
| software, as it makes incremental images of my C drive, and will also
| make incremental BUs of the Data Drive. My current set up is all
| programs plus all data, except photo images are on my C drive. All photo
| images are on an external USB 3 drive, which is about 75% full. (2T)
| I will soon replace the external 2T with a high capacity internal.
|
|
| Any suggestions are appreciated. Please do not turn this into a flame
| war. I will consider any and all suggestions, including different
| software, and additional BU drives.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| --
| PeterN

In article , PeterN
wrote:

For various reasons including a bad sector issue with one of my current
backup drives, I am installing a new primary backup drive.
It is a Seagate 4T, not a mirror. I have decided on Acronis for my BU
software, as it makes incremental images of my C drive, and will also
make incremental BUs of the Data Drive. My current set up is all
programs plus all data, except photo images are on my C drive. All photo
images are on an external USB 3 drive, which is about 75% full. (2T)
I will soon replace the external 2T with a high capacity internal.


Any suggestions are appreciated. Please do not turn this into a flame
war. I will consider any and all suggestions, including different
software, and additional BU drives.

have more than one copy (the more the merrier), with at least one
offsite somewhere.

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

I would go with a disk image including installed software.
Then put *all* data on other drives. The data and the OS
+ software is like the tralier and the tractor. If the tractor
(C drive) dies you can attach a new one and be on your way.
There's no reason to risk the cargo.

there is not a clean separation and restoring everything is much easier
than piecemealing it.

That way you can also skip the bloat and work of incremental
backups. You shouldn't need to be backing up C drive again.
Disk imaging is not an incremental thing. That misses the
whole point. Just copy over your relevant App Data folders,
Documents, whatever to backup on a regular basis and leave
your disk image alone until you need to write it back to disk.

what bloat? and hard drives are cheap anyway.

what doesn't change doesn't get backed up again.

I like to disk image (using BootIt), then back up data,
email, etc periodically. That's all on 2 different disks that
are mostly redundant. I also write the backup to CD, then I
occasionally also store those CDs elsewhere. I wouldn't
trust anything to just being on local hard disks.

true but cds are a poor choice because of the hassles, potential bit
rot and very small size.

i have single files that need a dozen cds just for one file.

at least use dvd.

The vast photo collection should be on some kind
of external backup. If you really want to keep 2-3 TB
then you might want to use an extra hard disk as
remote backup.

offsite is required for a good strategy.

(Everything I have can fit on a few DVDs,
so I use that method.)

apparently.

There should also be some order to things.

what for? let the backup software worry about it.

You shouldn't
need to back up 2 TB periodically. You should have some
kind of permanent backup of the vast bulk of it and only
need to back up the new data periodically.

that's what backup software does, all automatically.

So, for instance,
you might store your library on a hard disk and then write
periodic DVDs for new data.

yuk. then you have to piece it all back together.

To look at it another way: People have different preferences.
However you do it is up to you, but if it's good backup then
it should be reasonably convenient and you should be able to
lose your computer to theft or electrical surge tomorrow without
it being a disaster.

that part is true.

In addition to choosing backup methods and software, you should also think
about and plan for disaster; theft, fire, storms, earthquake, etc. My scheme
is to use Acronis for all my backups. My OS is on an SSD, programs on my D:
drive, data on my E: drive and Photos/music on my F: drive. I do a complete
full backup of my C:, D:, and E: drives on a 1TB external drive each week to
10 days. I do an incremental backup of my F: drive on another 1TB (could be
larger) drive and keep them in a safe that is water and fire resistant. I
obtained the safe from Costco. It has an electronic lock. I just hope it is
never needed. I like the safe over a safety deposit box because it is easy
and quick to access, thereby encouraging backups.
Since I do some teaching and consulting, I also back up my E: drive (data)
on a portable 1 TB drive that I can carry with me.

Gordo

"PeterN" wrote in message ...

For various reasons including a bad sector issue with one of my current
backup drives, I am installing a new primary backup drive.
It is a Seagate 4T, not a mirror. I have decided on Acronis for my BU
software, as it makes incremental images of my C drive, and will also
make incremental BUs of the Data Drive. My current set up is all
programs plus all data, except photo images are on my C drive. All photo
images are on an external USB 3 drive, which is about 75% full. (2T)
I will soon replace the external 2T with a high capacity internal.


Any suggestions are appreciated. Please do not turn this into a flame
war. I will consider any and all suggestions, including different
software, and additional BU drives.






--
PeterN

| I would go with a disk image including installed software.
| Then put *all* data on other drives. The data and the OS
| + software is like the tralier and the tractor. If the tractor
| (C drive) dies you can attach a new one and be on your way.
| There's no reason to risk the cargo.
|
| there is not a clean separation and restoring everything is much easier
| than piecemealing it.

There are probably important distinctions here for
Mac vs Windows.

I've been doing disk imaging for years and have no trouble
making a "clean separation" between OS and data. But one
does need to know where important data is and how to
back it up. That can require some research on Windows.
Generally any folders/files that one didn't directly create
oneself are either in the Documents folder or in the personal
App Data folder. I don't know how it works on Macs. Maybe
what you say is true for you if there's no realistic way to
find your data on a Mac.

On Windows, at least, once one knows what needs to
be backed up, and how to do it, the disk image system
works well.

I think it's important to distinguish between disk
imaging and backup imaging. What many people are
doing, what might be called backup imaging, is incremental
and/or periodic backups of their C drive. That's like
Windows System Restore. It developed as a popular,
non-techy substitute to disk imaging. That's
OK if you don't want to get into learning the technical
aspects of making disk images and backing up data
separately, but essentially backup imaging is a clunky
method for people who don't want to deal with technical
issues. (I don't even have Windows System Restore
enabled. With disk imaging it would just be a waste of
space.)

Either way, it still comes down to the same thing:
You can do whatever you like for backup so long as
it works for you and it passes the basic backup test:

If your computer is cooked today by an electrical
surge, are you OK? If your house burns down today,
are you OK?

OK means having a copy of your OS,
all of your software, and all of your data, that you
can easily restore to functionality. With disk
imaging, using Windows, I only need an image and
my backup data. I can then install the image to a new
machine if necessary and all of my software is there.
If you don't have that then you'll need backup copies
of your software install disks, product keys, etc. And
all of those need to be also backed up offsite by
copying the install disks and writing any necessary
activation codes on those disks.

With Macs, since you can't just buy or build a cheap
box to reinstall on, I guess you'll have to just buy a new
Mac if yours is cooked or stolen. And I have no idea
whether you can actually make disk images of your
Mac system with programs like Photoshop and all other
software already installed, to be restored back to disk
in the future. (Photoshop may no longer be relevant if
you're using Adobe's cloud system, but I assume most
everyone still has software that gets installed on dosk
from an install CD or DVD.) That may be another factor
in favor of your approach, for people on Macs: There's
no point having disk images if you can't use them. For
people on Windows that's not a problem. The only obstacle
for Windows disk imaging is possible technical challenges
in making images, restoring them, restoring them to new
hardware with a different motherboard, etc.

| I like to disk image (using BootIt), then back up data,
| email, etc periodically. That's all on 2 different disks that
| are mostly redundant. I also write the backup to CD, then I
| occasionally also store those CDs elsewhere. I wouldn't
| trust anything to just being on local hard disks.
|
| true but cds are a poor choice because of the hassles, potential bit
| rot and very small size.
|
| i have single files that need a dozen cds just for one file.
| at least use dvd.

You're making all sorts of assumptions that are
not valid. First, I've never failed to retrieve data
on a disk. Second, I make redundant copies and
replace them occasionally, just in case. Third,
*I don't need DVDs for my basic backup*. My
OS/software disk image fits on a CD. My periodic,
recent-files backup also fits on a CD. I then use
DVDs for graphics, photos, large data files, etc --
large amounts of data that I want to keep but
which don't change.

I'm distinguishing between permanent, large
scale backup (Windows service packs, old photos,
large software installers, videos I want to keep)
and recent backup (email, work docs, program
data, and any other personal/business/system files
that might be handy to have on recent backup).

Again, it might not be your chosen method, and
it may or may not be the best choice for PeterN,
but it's worked well for me. It's also the method
I use for several friends whose PCs I manage.

nospam wrote:

have more than one copy (the more the merrier),

IMO, three (3) is an effective minimum rule-of-thumb.

with at least one offsite somewhere.

A couple of locations that are potentially "easy":

- desk drawer at work
- family's house
- safety deposit box @ local bank

FWIW, for "on site" copies, do at least move it offline
and then box it and put it in another room in the house.

Reason for the first part is so that a power surge
(eg, lightning strike) doesn't fry all copies simply
because they were left attached. The second part is
because not all home events are 100% catastrphic, so
some physical separation distance is better than no
separation distance.

BTW, after one boxes the drive, put the boxed drive into
something like a ziplock bag ... include an anti-dessicant
if you want too ... as these are a cheap/easy way to add
some resistance to water, smoke ...and bugs... damage risks.


-hh

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

| I would go with a disk image including installed software.
| Then put *all* data on other drives. The data and the OS
| + software is like the tralier and the tractor. If the tractor
| (C drive) dies you can attach a new one and be on your way.
| There's no reason to risk the cargo.
|
| there is not a clean separation and restoring everything is much easier
| than piecemealing it.

There are probably important distinctions here for
Mac vs Windows.

not really other than it's much easier to do on macs.

I've been doing disk imaging for years and have no trouble
making a "clean separation" between OS and data. But one
does need to know where important data is and how to
back it up. That can require some research on Windows.

why bother? clone the whole drive and be done with it.

if disaster strikes, swap in the clone. done.

why make things harder than they need to be?

incremental snapshots of only the files that change is also useful,
which protects against a different failure mode than a clone.

both are good.

Generally any folders/files that one didn't directly create
oneself are either in the Documents folder or in the personal
App Data folder. I don't know how it works on Macs. Maybe
what you say is true for you if there's no realistic way to
find your data on a Mac.

there you go again with moronic anti-mac babble.

of course people can find their data on macs. what kind of idiotic
statement is that?

but even if the user couldn't, the backup app can. all that matters is
if the backup drive can replace the dead drive.

On Windows, at least, once one knows what needs to
be backed up, and how to do it, the disk image system
works well.

everything needs to be backed up.

splitting system and data is a waste of time.

I think it's important to distinguish between disk
imaging and backup imaging. What many people are
doing, what might be called backup imaging, is incremental
and/or periodic backups of their C drive. That's like
Windows System Restore. It developed as a popular,
non-techy substitute to disk imaging. That's
OK if you don't want to get into learning the technical
aspects of making disk images and backing up data
separately, but essentially backup imaging is a clunky
method for people who don't want to deal with technical
issues. (I don't even have Windows System Restore
enabled. With disk imaging it would just be a waste of
space.)

why should someone be burdened with technical issues?

and your silly distinctions are just that, silly.

clones and incremental snapshots are both useful and protect against
different failures.

anyway, use good backup app and let it take care of the details. why
make things harder than they need to be?

Either way, it still comes down to the same thing:
You can do whatever you like for backup so long as
it works for you and it passes the basic backup test:

yes.

If your computer is cooked today by an electrical
surge, are you OK? If your house burns down today,
are you OK?

i probably won't be ok if my house burns down since i won't have a
house anymore.

however, the data on my computers will survive.

OK means having a copy of your OS,
all of your software, and all of your data, that you
can easily restore to functionality.

which means having a clone of the drive which can be attached to a
replacement computer.

there's no need to separate it into parts and then piece it all back
together.

on a mac, if the internal drive fails, you can simply boot off a backup
clone and continue working (or swap it). downtime is nothing more than
plugging in the backup drive and booting from it.

how well does windows boot off an external drive? good luck on that.

however, you'd best have additional backups if you're going to turn a
backup drive into a main drive.

With disk
imaging, using Windows, I only need an image and
my backup data. I can then install the image to a new
machine if necessary and all of my software is there.

you only need one image of all your data, not split into pieces, and
multiple copies in multiple places.

If you don't have that then you'll need backup copies
of your software install disks, product keys, etc. And
all of those need to be also backed up offsite by
copying the install disks and writing any necessary
activation codes on those disks.

that's why it's easiest to clone the whole drive. when disaster
strikes, reboot off the clone or swap it. done.

With Macs, since you can't just buy or build a cheap
box to reinstall on, I guess you'll have to just buy a new
Mac if yours is cooked or stolen.

if your computer is destroyed, you're going to have to buy a new
computer one way or the other, whether it's in kit form or already
assembled.

most people don't want to build computers or anything else from parts,
so they buy the assembled versions. when's the last time you saw
someone build a tv from parts? or a car? why only computers?

and if the computer you had was not cheap, why would you want to
replace it with a cheap box?

And I have no idea
whether you can actually make disk images of your
Mac system with programs like Photoshop and all other
software already installed, to be restored back to disk
in the future.

of course you can. you're demonstrating your ignorance again.

not only can macs use disk images but they can do much more with them
than windows can. macs have been using disk images since the floppy
days. mac software is often distributed on a disk image, which is a
'virtual cd'.

disk images on a mac can also be bundles (multiple bands rather than
one monolithic file), sparse and/or encrypted. they can also be any of
a number of file systems.

it's quite common to have an encrypted disk image of private data on a
hard drive, such as financial information. any time the user wants to
access it, they double-click the image, provide the password and it
mounts as another drive, at which point the user can interact with
their data. unmount it when done and it's inaccessible without a
password.

(Photoshop may no longer be relevant if
you're using Adobe's cloud system, but I assume most
everyone still has software that gets installed on dosk
from an install CD or DVD.)

adobe's cloud system does not run from the cloud.

you continue to demonstrate your ignorance.

adobe's cloud system is a normal install like any other app, but the
app pings adobe every month or so.

That may be another factor
in favor of your approach, for people on Macs: There's
no point having disk images if you can't use them.

and you continue to demonstrate your ignorance even further.

For
people on Windows that's not a problem. The only obstacle
for Windows disk imaging is possible technical challenges
in making images, restoring them, restoring them to new
hardware with a different motherboard, etc.

on a mac, there are no technical challenges. it's a couple of clicks.

that makes your rant rather silly.

| I like to disk image (using BootIt), then back up data,
| email, etc periodically. That's all on 2 different disks that
| are mostly redundant. I also write the backup to CD, then I
| occasionally also store those CDs elsewhere. I wouldn't
| trust anything to just being on local hard disks.
|
| true but cds are a poor choice because of the hassles, potential bit
| rot and very small size.
|
| i have single files that need a dozen cds just for one file.
| at least use dvd.

You're making all sorts of assumptions that are
not valid.

they're valid assumptions.

First, I've never failed to retrieve data
on a disk.

yet.

everything is susceptible to failure.

Second, I make redundant copies and
replace them occasionally, just in case. Third,
*I don't need DVDs for my basic backup*. My
OS/software disk image fits on a CD. My periodic,
recent-files backup also fits on a CD. I then use
DVDs for graphics, photos, large data files, etc --
large amounts of data that I want to keep but
which don't change.

you obviously don't have many files or very big files.

as i said i have *single* files that would take up a dozen cds.

that would fit on *one* dual-layer dvd.

but even that's a pain in the ass. who wants to have stacks of dvds?

terabyte drives are $50 or so.

I'm distinguishing between permanent, large
scale backup (Windows service packs, old photos,
large software installers, videos I want to keep)
and recent backup (email, work docs, program
data, and any other personal/business/system files
that might be handy to have on recent backup).

Again, it might not be your chosen method, and
it may or may not be the best choice for PeterN,
but it's worked well for me. It's also the method
I use for several friends whose PCs I manage.

what works for you is the most complicated way possible.

Hi Peter,

For various reasons including a bad sector issue with one of my current
backup drives, I am installing a new primary backup drive.
It is a Seagate 4T, not a mirror. I have decided on Acronis for my BU
software, as it makes incremental images of my C drive, and will also
make incremental BUs of the Data Drive. My current set up is all
programs plus all data, except photo images are on my C drive. All
photo images are on an external USB 3 drive, which is about 75% full.
(2T) I will soon replace the external 2T with a high capacity internal.

I use "Macrium Reflect" to backup my Windows computer.

I have it scheduled to make a complete image backup of the hard drive
every night. Image backups work best because you don't always know where
programs save data, and an image backup lets you quickly restore to a new
drive if you have a total system failure (without having to reinstall all
your programs and reconfigure your settings).

I prefer to make full backups instead of incremental. It takes a bit
longer, but occurs while I am sleeping so that is not an issue.

I backup to an external USB hard drive I keep attached to my computer. I
keep two nights worth of backups on that hard drive.

About once a month, I swap that hard drive with a second hard drive I
keep in the safe deposit box at the bank. Swapping drives ensures the
mechanical parts don't stick from not being used, and keeps the secondary
backup fairly up to date.

The local hard drive lets me quickly recover from common errors like
accidentally deleting a file or something. The duplicate drive at the
bank gives me protection from major disasters like power surges, fires,
floods, theft, etc.

Periodically, I also burn BluRay data discs of important personal data
like photos, videos, and music.

Of course, if a file is corrupted on your main drive, it could
potentially migrate through all of your backups too. Eventually you would
no longer have a good file to recover. So, I use "MD5 File Hasher" to
verify the validity of my important data files (old photos, home movies,
documents, etc.). This alerts me if a file has been modified (virus, bad
sector, etc.) so I can recover a good copy from one of the backups.

Good luck,

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com