Calumet files Chapter 7

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

| there is something inherently dishonest about charging high prices
| without offering anything in return, ripping off the customers. why
| would anyone want to shop in a store where they get ripped off?
|
| Disagree. Stupid, but not dishonest. Problem is perception of value. I,
| personally, perceive a lot of value in simply being able to hold the
| product in my hands before purchase, and have my questions answered by
| a (presumed) expert. Unfortunately, customers have overwhelmingly voted
| they place little-to-no value on that, by purchasing elsewhere.
| Dishonesty comes in on the customers side, where they TAKE that value
| (showroom demonstration) without paying for it (making the purchase at
| the dealer offering it).
|

It seems that you're both focusing on one
part of a complex issue. Nospam wants cheap
and chooses to ignore the cost of actually
having a store.

no, i want to not pay more than i need to and the cost of having a
store does not matter, except to the storekeeper. that's standard
stuff, but apparently well beyond your limited ability to think.

He thinks it's dishonest
for stores to charge high prices.

wrong. stores can charge whatever they want and consumers can choose to
pay or not pay it. most are choosing to not pay it, and spend their
hard earned money elsewhere.

(Especially ironic,
given that nospam shills for Adobe at every
opportunity -- a company famous for gouging a
captive customer base.)

more of your idiocy. i don't shill for anyone and adobe doesn't gouge
anyone anyway. they make top quality products, and some are the best
products in the industry (other than flash which is crap that they
acquired and are stuck with).

You would prefer to view stores as places where
kindly and knowledgeable clerks are there to help
you, and deserve to charge a bit more for that.

if only that were true. knowledgeable sales staff is rare. i have no
problem supporting stores where staff knows stuff, but that isn't often
the case, even in dedicated stores.

You
don't think it's dishonest for stores to overcharge
customers, but you do think it's dishonest for
customers to take advantage of store sales staff
without buying. Both are dishonest. Both are misleading
the other party. Both care only about themselves,
lacking what used to be known as common decency.

that part is true.

But it's also more involved than that.

not really.

Yesterday I was looking to buy a cane for my
extremely elderly father. Walmart and Home Depot
both claim to carry it. At Walmart it's only $17.
But those stores don't really carry the product.
It's not in their stores. They just claim to carry
anything at all and then act as a middleman delivery
service through their websites.

so what? order it online and be done with it.

I wouldn't be surprised
if I could buy a circular saw or TV set at CVS or
Safeway online for less than Home Depot and Walmart,
respectively, charge for those items. But woe to me
if I need to return them.

it's easier to drive to the post office than back to the store, and the
line is probably going to be shorter at the post office than the return
counter.

I don't like to buy online, and I especially avoid
anyplace where I can't call and talk to a human.

why? the humans are not guaranteed to know anything.

I ended up getting the cane at Walgreen's for about
$40. Walgreen's and CVS overcharge, simply because
they can get away with it.

not always. learn how to shop. some stuff is competitive and other
stuff is not. no single store will have the best prices on all
products.

They're giant, "godless"
corporations, operating only for proift.

in your world, all stores do that.

Recently I read
about how CVS sells customer medical records to
insurance companies; just making a little extra money
on the side.

where did you read that? and the insurance companies have to get the
medical records so that the pharmacy can get paid for the drugs.

I'd prefer to give my business to a local
drug store. And I wouldn't mind paying a little extra
for that. But they're all gone. The undercutting strategy
that Walgreen's and CVS started out with drove those
stores out of business. The clerks in Walgreen's know
nothing about the products. Nor should they. They don't
get paid enough for that. They're paid to be robots who
ask politely, "Do you have one of our valuable loyalty
cards?"

they're more competitive than the local stores which is why the local
stores are gone. that's just the way the system works. had the local
stores offered what the customers wanted, they'd still be around. a few
are but overall, not very many.

I wouldn't entirely disagree with your point. CVS
and Walgreen's exist in large part because of the
tendency you're talking about: People fall for the
low prices, ignoring the slightly less obvious fact that
by supporting chain stores they're driving out competition.

that's what competition *is*.

cvs and walgreens are providing what people want and the other stores
are not.

The customer tendency to go only for price is what allows
companies like Walmart to thrive. And now it's become
what allows online mega-retailers like Amazon to thrive.
But it's not as simple as a battle between nice, expert
retail clerks and amoral online mega-retailers.

who needs handholding at cvs? are you that stupid that you can't figure
out which shampoo to buy?

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

competitive doesn't mean below cost.

however, it does mean not charging as much as twice the price as
available elsewhere, for the same item.

offer products and services to make customers want to buy from you,
otherwise they aren't going to. it's really that simple.

either adapt to the changing landscape of online shopping or be gone.
that's harsh but that's just how it is.

You really don't want to be swayed from your agenda, do you?

nospam goes into every discussion thinking that his position is the
only right position.

everyone does that. that's what drives discussions. who goes into a
discussion thinking that they're wrong??

You could respond to what I said, not what I didn't say.

ironic. you respond to what i didn't say all the time.

I don't
phrase my comments without thought. There's a vast difference
between thinking you are right and thinking that your position is the
*only* right position. When there are options of ways to do things,
there is often more than one right way to do them.

nobody said otherwise.

What he ignores is that in *all* purchases online, there is no sales
help available. Any help the customer gets at a retail store is more
than what any online seller offers. If nothing else, the buyer at a
retail store gets to handle the camera before purchase.

false. some online sellers have a *lot* of sales help on their site,
including extensive faqs, video demos, wizards that ask questions to
narrow down the choices, phone support and even online chat for
questions, user reviews and links to other information.

some sellers have very generous return policies so you can buy and
handle the product with no risk, other than having to ship it back if
you don't like it, which is nothing more than a quick trip to the post
office.

It's always the buyer's responsibility to do their own homework.
There's no reason the in-store buyer can't check the reviews and
customer ratings of something before they make the purchase.

nobody said they can't do that, but most people don't.

If that's true, then all that "online help" above isn't going to be
taken advantage of either.

all a company can do is put the information out there and make it easy
to find and understand. some customers will read and use it while
others won't.

I don't know how you come to the conclusion about "most people",
though. It's that kind of hand-waving hyperbole that's a turn-off.

it's reality.

I may be a bit prejudiced in favor of the retail store because the two
camera stores in Orlando are both staffed by knowledgeable and helpful
staff. But, if I go to a big box store and deal with a sales person
that doesn't know the difference between a interchangeable lens body
and a fixed lens body, that's my fault.

what if the only choices are big box stores? what if the customer
doesn't know enough about the product to know that the salesperson
hasn't any clue?

The list of "what if?s is endless.

so what

Now, here's a challenge for you: SHOW US a camera (not a lens cap or a
battery) that sells for twice at much in a retail store as through a
mail order house. Exact same, current model and brand, that is, say,
$200 at Cardinal Camera in Lansdale Pa. and $100 at B&H in New York. Or
any other comparable vendors.

He won't be able to. That's typical hyperbole from nospam.

i am *always* able to back up what i say. as i said in another post, i
was looking for a lens case and a local store had one for around $30
and b&h had it for $17 or so (i don't remember exact prices). that's
about double.

So a $10 difference, after shipping charges, of one item establishes
that camera stores charge double?

half of $30 is $15, which is close enough to $17 to be considered half.
yes it's a little roundoff. if you prefer, 0.57.

and you snipped the $200 difference on a nikon slr. that's a chunk of
change that can pay for a flash or other accessory, or even a lens.

And, you had to wait for delivery.
What if you needed it today? What if what is offered online is a
knock-off product from China that isn't as good a quality?

i didn't need it 'today' and the product was not a knockoff. it was
*identical*, a genuine lowepro case.

in some cases, a knockoff product is perfectly adequate.

It all comes around to my position that there is often more than one
"right" way to do things. Buying online can be the right thing and
buying from a store can be the right thing. You can't discount other
people's preferences just because they aren't yours.

i never said buying in a store was wrong.

what i said was buying online is less expensive and more convenient in
nearly every case. on occasion, a store can be cheaper but that's rare.

sometimes having it immediately is required, so you don't have a
choice, but the number of times that a store is the only option is not
common enough for many stores to stay in business.

Slightly off-topic...the father of one of the boys on my grandson's
Babe Ruth baseball team recently purchased a Canon 70D with a 18-135
lens from Best Buy. He showed me the receipt, and it was almost
$2,000 with bag, two 32 gig cards, bag, and some sort of extended
warranty. He doesn't know what "RAW" is, he shoots on whatever
Canon's Auto setting is, he doesn't know what ISO is, and he has no
idea how to capture sports scenes.

Did he do the right thing? Not from my perspective, but he's happy.
It was right for him.

do you really think that rig was right for him? he spent way more than
he needed to spend and won't ever take advantage of what he has. he has
more money than brains and the store loves people like that.

In article , Sandman
wrote:

nospam:
everyone does that. that's what drives discussions. who goes into
a discussion thinking that they're wrong??

Must resist temptation. Must resist temptation. Must resist
temptation.

Yeh! I resisted temptation.

Good point, I think Peter here usually enters a discussion knowing he's
wrong.

he may not always realize he's wrong.

nospam:
i am *always* able to back up what i say. as i said in another
post, i was looking for a lens case and a local store had one for
around $30 and b&h had it for $17 or so (i don't remember exact
prices). that's about double.

i didn't say cameras were twice the price, but way back when i
bought my nikon d50, the difference was $200 from online versus
store, which was about 1/3rd the price of the camera ($400 v.
$600).

I see you are as good with your arithmatic, as you are with
business.

Huh? Does peter not think that $200 is a third of the price of $600? Or was
he just unable to read to save his life again?

he's just stupid.

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

nospam must be right, then. I do things the hard way. I do, if the
product represents a significant expense, check reviews and ratings
before entering the store. Seems like the best way to do it.

Many people do - that doesn't make it a smooth buyer experience, just like
I said. It's an added step you have to add before you go to the store.

Yes, learning all you can about a product you intend to buy is an
added step. Omitting that step can make the purchase process
smoother, but can also result in buying the wrong product or buying
from the wrong source. Why you think this "bump" in the purchasing
process should be avoided in order to keep the process "smooth" is
rather strange.

that step applies to any purchase, whether it's online or in a store.

Tony Cooper:
So a $10 difference, after shipping charges, of one item
establishes that camera stores charge double? And, you had to
wait for delivery. What if you needed it today? What if what is
offered online is a knock-off product from China that isn't as
good a quality?

Sandman:
Tony working hard to make it seem the prices quoted aren't "about
double" by adding unrelated parameters.

Shipping costs are an unrelated parameter in deciding whether or not
an online supplier's price is competitive?

Unknown shipping costs, added by you without knowing if there were any.

Uhhh...get your story straight. If he is talking about B&H as you say
below, B&H charges shipping. I've purchased many items from B&H, and
their shipping charge policy is not unknown to me.

stores charge sales tax plus there's fuel costs to get to the store and
sometimes parking charges, depending on the location of the store.

technically one should pay use tax in lieu of sales tax but almost
nobody does that.

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

Slightly off-topic...the father of one of the boys on my grandson's
Babe Ruth baseball team recently purchased a Canon 70D with a 18-135
lens from Best Buy. He showed me the receipt, and it was almost
$2,000 with bag, two 32 gig cards, bag, and some sort of extended
warranty. He doesn't know what "RAW" is, he shoots on whatever
Canon's Auto setting is, he doesn't know what ISO is, and he has no
idea how to capture sports scenes.

Did he do the right thing? Not from my perspective, but he's happy.
It was right for him.

do you really think that rig was right for him?

Yes. What is "right" for a person is the product that suits the
person's perceived needs and desires. What their *real* needs are is
immaterial. If he thinks he has what he needs, that's "right" enough.

nope. he may want all of that and if he has cash burning a hole in his
pocket then he can buy it just for fun, but his needs are nowhere near
justifying any of it. an honest store would tell him he could put his
money to better use.

he spent way more than
he needed to spend and won't ever take advantage of what he has.

True, but so what? The same is true of some people who buy high-end
expensive Macs and Adobe Photoshop (full version), but you don't seem
to object to that.

i do when it's overkill.

someone taking photos to post on facebook doesn't need a 12 core mac
pro with photoshop cs/cc.

What online retailer stops orders to ask the buyer
if he's sure that he needs this product or if he could use a less
expensive one? Would B&H?

they don't stop orders but as i said in another post, there are wizards
to help you choose the right product for your needs and some have
online chat where you can ask questions and many have online reviews.
you can always call and talk to someone for further guidance.

there is *plenty* of information available, much more than what you can
use than while standing in a store with a salesperson trying to close a
sale so that he gets his commission.

he has
more money than brains and the store loves people like that.

True, but if he would have gone to an online retailer like B&H, he
would have got the same package. B&H would love him.

and you see no problem with stores taking full advantage of his
ignorance.

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

Tony Cooper:
nospam must be right, then. I do things the hard way. I do, if
the product represents a significant expense, check reviews and
ratings before entering the store. Seems like the best way to
do it.

Sandman:
Many people do - that doesn't make it a smooth buyer experience,
just like I said. It's an added step you have to add before you go
to the store.

Yes, learning all you can about a product you intend to buy is an
added step. Omitting that step can make the purchase process
smoother, but can also result in buying the wrong product or buying
from the wrong source.

Which is irrelevant to the subject of whether or not the buying experience
is smooth.

Why you think this "bump" in the purchasing process should be avoided in
order to keep the process "smooth" is rather strange.

I can not answer for things that exists only in your mind. I don't think
the things you claim I think.

Tony Cooper:
Shipping costs are an unrelated parameter in deciding whether or
not an online supplier's price is competitive?

Sandman:
Unknown shipping costs, added by you without knowing if there were
any.

Uhhh...get your story straight. If he is talking about B&H as you
say below, B&H charges shipping. I've purchased many items from
B&H, and their shipping charge policy is not unknown to me.

Don't you ever stop to think whether or not you should check up on things
before making claims?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Lens_Case.html

"Free Shipping (USA)"

See why you have no credibility and why every claim you make is met with
doubt?

Sandman:
And now B&H sells low-quality knock-offs from China?

Tony Cooper:
I guess I must have missed where nospam said online choices are
limited to B&H.

Sandman:
I guess you missed that nospam was specifically talking about a
B&H example, yes.

The B&H that does charge for shipping?

No, the one that doesn't.

Tony Cooper:
Just out of curiosity, does nospam send you "Thank you" notes
with little x's and o's for coming to his defense so often?

Sandman:
I am not defending him,

Sure.

Good.



--
Sandman[.net]

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

Tony Cooper:
Yes. What is "right" for a person is the product that suits the
person's perceived needs and desires. What their *real* needs
are is immaterial. If he thinks he has what he needs, that's
"right" enough.

nospam:
nope. he may want all of that and if he has cash burning a hole in
his pocket then he can buy it just for fun, but his needs are
nowhere near justifying any of it. an honest store would tell him
he could put his money to better use.

You don't understand the word "perceived"? Why do people drive a
Lexus, wear a Rolex, or buy $100 neckties? As a consumer, we have
the right and the ability to purchase what we perceive we need.

Someone buying a Rolex doesn't do it because he needs it or "percieves" he
needs it, it's because he wants it, and it's a status symbol. It's easy to
discern the difference - because purchases you make that you *need* may
also be things you do not *want*.

When I bought my iPad, no one at the Apple store tried to tell me
that an $89 tablet would be a better buy for my needs. I would not
expect them to, and I would not want them to.

That's only because the Apple Store is not a reseller of tablets, they're a
store that sells only Apple tablets. Last time I was in an Apple Store I
had some specific needs for a iPad dock, and instead of trying to push
their own brand, the sales person presented many different brands in many
different price ranges.

nospam:
i do when it's overkill.

someone taking photos to post on facebook doesn't need a 12 core
mac pro with photoshop cs/cc.

That's for them to decide.

No it's not. They do not *need* it to accomplish those tasks, that's a
plain fact.

Perceived need is completely different from real need.

Only because it is based on ignorance. Hence, they don't need it. I have no
idea why you're adding the "Percieved" qualifier to nospam's comments, why
not reply to what he says instead of what doesn't say?

nospam:
they don't stop orders but as i said in another post, there are
wizards to help you choose the right product for your needs and
some have online chat where you can ask questions and many have
online reviews. you can always call and talk to someone for
further guidance.

That's only available to the customer who avails themselves of it.

Just as in a store.

You have to seek it out.

Most times you don't. Reviews are displayed alongside the product, some
sites will popup a question if you linger on a page for a while, asking if
you need help deciding.

The customer who just places an order gets what he orders whether or not
he needs that level of product.

Very insightful.

nospam:
there is *plenty* of information available, much more than what
you can use than while standing in a store with a salesperson
trying to close a sale so that he gets his commission.

But, according to your best buddy, that doesn't make for a "smooth"
transaction.

I'll give you one million dollar if you can quote me saying that.

nospam:
he has more money than brains and the store loves people like
that.

Well, he has to have *some* brains to make the kind of income that
allows him to pay $2,000 for a camera without blinking an eye. And,
as I said, any online retailer - including B&H - would accept his
order without asking him if he needed that much camera.

Of course. They won't question a customers purchase. But if said customer
walks in to the store and starts handling a $2,000 camera and a sales
person asks him if he wants help and he says yes, the sales person might
very well ask him what his needs are and enlighten the customer on what
product may fit him the best. The reason isn't to make him buy something
cheaper, but in order to make the customer happy and pleased with both the
product and the buying experience and support.




--
Sandman[.net]

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

Tony Cooper:
Shipping costs are an unrelated parameter in
deciding whether or not an online supplier's price is
competitive?

Sandman:
Unknown shipping costs, added by you without knowing
if there were any.

Tony Cooper:
Uhhh...get your story straight. If he is talking about B&H as
you say below, B&H charges shipping. I've purchased many items
from B&H, and their shipping charge policy is not unknown to me.

Sandman:
Don't you ever stop to think whether or not you should check up on
things before making claims?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Lens_Case.html

"Free Shipping (USA)"

It's free if you are willing to wait for two weeks of calendar days.
UPS is not free.

I.e. you were wrong and made a claim without checking the facts beforehand.
When are you ever going to learn?


--
Sandman[.net]

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

"Free Shipping (USA)"

It's free if you are willing to wait for two weeks of calendar days.
UPS is not free.

bzzt.

b&h states that free shipping is up to 7 days, which for those who
failed math, is *one* week, not two.

depending on where you live and what you ordered, it will likely be
quicker than that (thus the words 'up to'). those close to new york
will likely get it in a couple of days. for free.

In article , Tony Cooper wrote:

Sandman:
Someone buying a Rolex doesn't do it because he needs it or
"percieves" he needs it, it's because he wants it, and it's a
status symbol. It's easy to discern the difference - because
purchases you make that you *need* may also be things you do not
*want*.

What, then, do you think "perceives" means? A perceived need is
simply a need we think we have, and that equates to a want; we want
it because we think we need it.

Man, you've totally lost it. We do not *want* things because we *think* we
need them. We don't *want* things because we *need* them either. If we're
lucky, we may very well want the smae things that are also needed, but the
words are not synonymous.

You may think you need a black tie for the wedding, so you buy one. You
never wanted a black tie, however.

You may think you need a 85mm lens to shoot portraits, so you buy one.
Luckily, you *also* wanted one for other reasons.

You need an external harddrive in order to properly make backups, but you
don't want one on your desk taking up place.

You need a fast car to participate in saturday racing events, luckily, you
also want a fast car since you enjoy driving quickly.

See how need - percieved or not - has NOTHING to do with what you want and
it can correlate or not depending on the situation. They are two different
words that mean two different things, regardless if you put "percieved" in
front of one of them.

Tony Cooper:
When I bought my iPad, no one at the Apple store tried to tell
me that an $89 tablet would be a better buy for my needs. I
would not expect them to, and I would not want them to.

Sandman:
That's only because the Apple Store is not a reseller of tablets,

Oh, then, your defense of nospam's contention is that a store will
only tell you need something less expensive because they don't think
you need the expensive item *if* they also carry less expensive
items?

Non sequitur.

nospam:
i do when it's overkill.

someone taking photos to post on facebook doesn't need a 12
core mac pro with photoshop cs/cc.

Tony Cooper:
That's for them to decide.

Sandman:
No it's not. They do not *need* it to accomplish those tasks,
that's a plain fact.

Who decides, in your mind, what the customer needs or should buy?
The sales clerk?

I think a more pressing question is - who will teach you what the word
"need" means? Apparently you're saying that someone taking photos to post
to facebook needs a 12 core Mac Pro and Photoshop CC. I'm assumign you
either have a 12 core Mac Pro and PS/CC or you've never posted an image to
Facebook.

If a customer walks in to the store saying that he needs to buy a $10,000
12 core Mac Pro to post images to Facebook, then he is flat out wrong.

Tony Cooper:
Perceived need is completely different from real need.

What was that thing you bought? The kickstart thing? The funny
lens? Did you have a real need for it? Or, was it a perceived need?

The Petzval. There was no need, "percieved" or not. Only a desire for the
effect of the lens. There was no requirement (=need) for that lens for me.

Sandman:
Only because it is based on ignorance.

So you bought a lens out of ignorance?

Only if I had ever said I needed it. Which of course I didn't. I bought it
because I wanted it, not because I needed it.

Sandman:
Hence, they don't need it. I have no idea why you're adding the
"Percieved" qualifier to nospam's comments, why not reply to what
he says instead of what doesn't say?

If he ignores a salient point, then it's quite reasonable to bring
it up.

But why not respond to what he writes instead of what he doesn't write?
You're ignoring what he writes, and then you're adding something that he
didn't write talk about that instead - why are you ignoring the salient
point nospam already made?

Tony Cooper:
But, according to your best buddy, that doesn't make for a
"smooth" transaction.

Sandman:
I'll give you one million dollar if you can quote me saying that.

I guess you meant something entirely different when you said: "Many
people do - that doesn't make it a smooth buyer experience, just
like I said. It's an added step you have to add before you go to the
store."

I meant what I wrote, which as you can see didn't correlate to what you
claimed I wrote. See why you have no credibility yet?



--
Sandman[.net]