B & W - Tonal Range

It sounds like your lab is over developing the film.


Matt McGrattan wrote:
: Hi,

: I've been struggling to get a wide enough tonal range out of the black
: and white film I've been using.

: If I scan the negatives and look at the histogram there's often a very
: compressed tonal range and, in particular, a lack of mid-tones.

: The curve is quite often U-shaped with a lot of very dark and a lot of
: very light grays but not much in the middle.

: I've tried various chromogenic options - XP2, Neopan CN (B & W) and
: Kodak TCN400 and also Ilford FP4 (in traditional B & W).

: Of these the XP2 and the Neopan have consistently looked the best and
: suffered least from this problem and the TCN400 and the FP4 have
: suffered more in comparison.

: The FP4 had very nice detail but was extremely contrasty - lots of
: pictures came out virtually black and white with little intervening
: subtlety.

: Question is:

: Am I doing something wrong? [I quite like the stark contrast sometimes
: but othertimes I want a more subtle tonal range)

: Are the processors doing something wrong? [I don't have a darkroom]

: Is there another film I might try that gives me a different and more
: 'subtle' tonal range?

: Matt


--




Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------

"Chris Loffredo" wrote in message
...
I concur fully with what PGG wrote about home developing.

If you still want a film with a great tonal range which is also very
forgiving of exposure errors, go for Efke films (same as the legendary
old Adox films from the 1950's).
Modern films (T-Max & co.) will have finer grain, etc., but usually
doesn't give as beautiful results as these films.

Chris
Not only is Efke an exceptional (read old) film, but they cleverly put the
recommended developing times inside the box. Imagine that.
Bob Hickey

Matt McGrattan wrote in message . ..
On 8 Sep 2004 13:17:34 -0700, (Paul W. Ross) wrote:

You don't tell us the lighting conditions? Out-of-doors, full
sunshine??

As to darkroom, you can process the film with nothing more than a
changing bag and a "daylight" tank. Check e-bay for used stuff, or
B&H. Then you know where the problem is.

This is across mixed lighting conditions.

It's obviously worse in bright sunshine when I'd expect to get more
harshly contrasting images. The shots are definitely more tonally
subtle when taken in less bright light (however some of the best shots
I've taken have been with a flash).

However, I've noticed the same narrow tonal range in a variety of
conditions.

[I'm starting to suspect the scanner may partly be at fault.]

I'll look into picking up a changing bag and a daylight tank. I'll
price it up. It might be worth my while over time to start processing
my own film then scanning the negs.

Thanks for the advice.

Matt

How do the negatives look under a loupe? Are highlights particularly
dense, shadows thin? A working knowledge of the print making process
would make these questions easier to answer, but if your highlights
routinely look about equal to the density of the exposed film leader
then it is exposure. If your negatives look good then it is probably
your scanner. Look at the exposed film leader and the unexposed film
trailer (if your processor doesn't include this with your negs ask
them to), if your negatives have areas with the same opacity and/or
transparency then you are dealing with an exposure issue. If your
most dense highlight is thinner than the exposed film leader and your
thinnest shadow is more dense than the film trailer (the unexposed end
of the film where there are no more images), then your exposure is
probably okay and your scanner the issue. There are ways to correct
exposure problems, so let us know what you find.

Michael

Matt McGrattan wrote in message . ..
On 8 Sep 2004 13:17:34 -0700, (Paul W. Ross) wrote:

You don't tell us the lighting conditions? Out-of-doors, full
sunshine??

As to darkroom, you can process the film with nothing more than a
changing bag and a "daylight" tank. Check e-bay for used stuff, or
B&H. Then you know where the problem is.

This is across mixed lighting conditions.

It's obviously worse in bright sunshine when I'd expect to get more
harshly contrasting images. The shots are definitely more tonally
subtle when taken in less bright light (however some of the best shots
I've taken have been with a flash).

However, I've noticed the same narrow tonal range in a variety of
conditions.

[I'm starting to suspect the scanner may partly be at fault.]

I'll look into picking up a changing bag and a daylight tank. I'll
price it up. It might be worth my while over time to start processing
my own film then scanning the negs.

Thanks for the advice.

Matt

How do the negatives look under a loupe? Are highlights particularly
dense, shadows thin? A working knowledge of the print making process
would make these questions easier to answer, but if your highlights
routinely look about equal to the density of the exposed film leader
then it is exposure. If your negatives look good then it is probably
your scanner. Look at the exposed film leader and the unexposed film
trailer (if your processor doesn't include this with your negs ask
them to), if your negatives have areas with the same opacity and/or
transparency then you are dealing with an exposure issue. If your
most dense highlight is thinner than the exposed film leader and your
thinnest shadow is more dense than the film trailer (the unexposed end
of the film where there are no more images), then your exposure is
probably okay and your scanner the issue. There are ways to correct
exposure problems, so let us know what you find.

Michael

Matt McGrattan wrote in message . ..
On 8 Sep 2004 13:17:34 -0700, (Paul W. Ross) wrote:

You don't tell us the lighting conditions? Out-of-doors, full
sunshine??

As to darkroom, you can process the film with nothing more than a
changing bag and a "daylight" tank. Check e-bay for used stuff, or
B&H. Then you know where the problem is.

This is across mixed lighting conditions.

It's obviously worse in bright sunshine when I'd expect to get more
harshly contrasting images. The shots are definitely more tonally
subtle when taken in less bright light (however some of the best shots
I've taken have been with a flash).

However, I've noticed the same narrow tonal range in a variety of
conditions.

[I'm starting to suspect the scanner may partly be at fault.]

I'll look into picking up a changing bag and a daylight tank. I'll
price it up. It might be worth my while over time to start processing
my own film then scanning the negs.

Thanks for the advice.

Matt

How do the negatives look under a loupe? Are highlights particularly
dense, shadows thin? A working knowledge of the print making process
would make these questions easier to answer, but if your highlights
routinely look about equal to the density of the exposed film leader
then it is exposure. If your negatives look good then it is probably
your scanner. Look at the exposed film leader and the unexposed film
trailer (if your processor doesn't include this with your negs ask
them to), if your negatives have areas with the same opacity and/or
transparency then you are dealing with an exposure issue. If your
most dense highlight is thinner than the exposed film leader and your
thinnest shadow is more dense than the film trailer (the unexposed end
of the film where there are no more images), then your exposure is
probably okay and your scanner the issue. There are ways to correct
exposure problems, so let us know what you find.

Michael

"PGG" wrote:
You do _not_ need a darkroom for develop-only.
A bathroom is plenty sufficient. You just may need to do it at night
because unloading the film into a "tank" requires 30 seconds of complete
darkness if your bathroom or closet isn't dark enough.

You don't even need to do that. Just use a changing bag
(http://www.adorama.com/BLCBL.html?se...0bag&item_no=1) to
load the tank
(http://www.adorama.com/DKT235.html?s...k&item_no=1 6)
, then develop at the kitchen sink. The lids allow you to poor the
developer and fix into the tank in daylight.

--
Dominic Richens |
"If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"

"PGG" wrote:
You do _not_ need a darkroom for develop-only.
A bathroom is plenty sufficient. You just may need to do it at night
because unloading the film into a "tank" requires 30 seconds of complete
darkness if your bathroom or closet isn't dark enough.

You don't even need to do that. Just use a changing bag
(http://www.adorama.com/BLCBL.html?se...0bag&item_no=1) to
load the tank
(http://www.adorama.com/DKT235.html?s...k&item_no=1 6)
, then develop at the kitchen sink. The lids allow you to poor the
developer and fix into the tank in daylight.

--
Dominic Richens |
"If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"