Sanyo eneloop at Costco

SMS wrote:

I believe the principal effect of the new Eneloop and Hybrid batteries
will be higher sales of digicams that accept standard AA batteries.

I doubt it, because the manufacturer always wants to make things smaller.

Small cellphones are more popular than large, especially with women.

But cameras are already small enough, and if anything the impetus is to
make them bigger to fit a larger LCD screen. This differentiates them
from cellphone cameras. Look at the popularity of DSLR cameras, which are
far bigger than they need to be, especially when fitted with lenses
that can cover a 35mm film frame.

We'll see what happens -- but Consumer Reports and dcresources.com
are already plus-weighting AA batteries in their ratings and reviews.

Your prediction could be correct, but more so because camera companies
make good profit on proprietary lithium-ion batteries (I think, judging
by cost!) and consumers are impelled to just throw a digicam away
when the battery stops working, especially if the battery costs more
than the camera is worth on Ebay. Thus higher camera sales. OTOH
consumers may get sick of digicams and just use their cellphone camera.

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:23:12 -0700, SMS wrote:

Additionally, while self-discharge and size were the principle
disadvantages of NiMH batteries, there are many more disadvantages that
apply to enough purchasers that a switch back to AA batteries is highly
unlikely. Many purchasers may not realize the advantages, but
manufacturers are fully aware of them. Manufacturers like to make
products that are usable by the greatest number of people in the
greatest number of countries under the greatest number of circumstances.

Then the Advantages score is AA batteries : 1 Li-Ion 0

They also worry about warranty costs. All this is to the advantage of
Li-Ion or Li-Po packs.

Wrong! All of the cameras that I've owned or used originally
came with disposable alkaline AA batteries. With no NiMH batteries
supplied, there's no need to provide a charger, and therefore no
warranty for batteries or chargers is needed. If a dozen people
worldwide complain of defective batteries, the manufacturers could
ship a free pack of alkalines at minimal cost. That would cost less
than covering the cost of shipping defective batteries and chargers
back to the manufacturer. The Li-Ion batteries and chargers cost
much more than a pack of alkalines, and their associated warranty
costs will be far higher than a few free packs of alkaline AA cells.

The Advantages score is now AA batteries : 2 Li-Ion 0


On the other hand, it would be a big cost savings to the manufacturer if
they could just tell the user 'go buy some low self-discharge batteries
and a charger.' This is what they currently do on the low end P&S
non-ultra-compact cameras, and a handful of higher end P&Ss like the
Canon S5.

Yes, and some other larger high end P&Ss like Fuji's S9100 and
even some DSLRs. Funny that you didn't think of this sooner.

Bill Tuthill wrote:
SMS wrote:
I believe the principal effect of the new Eneloop and Hybrid batteries
will be higher sales of digicams that accept standard AA batteries.

I doubt it, because the manufacturer always wants to make things smaller.

Small cellphones are more popular than large, especially with women.

But cameras are already small enough, and if anything the impetus is to
make them bigger to fit a larger LCD screen.

No, they fit a larger LCD screen by getting rid of everything else on
the back, like the viewfinder. Even with a bigger screen they want to
make them thin.

The market is being segemented into ultra-compact point and shoots and
D-SLRs, with the middle getting sparser because high megapixel compact
cameras can't deliver good enough quality with their tiny sensors.
Something like the S5 can (and does) use AA batteries.

Few people would put up with six AA batteries on a D-SLR unless they
include something like the battery tray that's used in the vertical
grips. D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA batteries won't
work, and even four AA batteries is a hassle.

We'll see what happens, but I very much doubt that the advent of
low-discharge NiMH batteries is going to cause camera makers to move
away from Li-Ion and Li-Po. The advantages over AA batteries are still
overwhelming, even with low-discharge AA batteries. Remember,
manufacturers are good at looking at the big picture, including issues
like warranty repair costs, where AA batteries have a big disadvantage.

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:14:48 -0700, SMS wrote:

Few people would put up with six AA batteries on a D-SLR unless they
include something like the battery tray that's used in the vertical
grips. D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA batteries won't
work, and even four AA batteries is a hassle.

A hassle for you. There may have been a need for six AA batteries
in old, inefficient DSLRs, but modern ones can do quite nicely with
only four. That would be enough to last many photographers for many
weeks of shooting, if not months. There are DSLRs that use very
little power, and can squeeze several thousand shots out of a single
Li-Ion battery, so do you think people are naive enough to think
that they'd only get several hundreds of shots from AA batteries
with DSLRs that use optical viewfinders?

Your statement that "four AA batteries won't work" is flat out
wrong, as owners of Pentax's K100D can tell you. It's one of those
cameras that you may also be surprised to know doesn't include
rechargeable batteries or a charger in the box, only 4 AA alkalines.
It can also use a pair of CR-V3 batteries in a pinch. Think of
Pentax's savings due to warrantees that aren't needed.

Do you think that this is the only DSLR that uses four AA
batteries? Short answer. No. There are several others, and they
all have good battery life. I do hope that this bogus anti-AA
battery claim hasn't been posted on your website, since immodestly
say that it is :

Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Digital Camera Battery Information

and this bogus statement about DSLRs and AA batteries alone would
disqualify your boast from being true.


[From another message in this thread]
Of course it often helps when you have someone on Usenet that
provides you with tons of incorrect material to correct! Never let
it be said that ASAAR doesn't serve a purpose!

Oh, I do. I do. But you have it backwards. It's your bloviating
that frequently needs to be corrected. The fact that you have to
resort to hiding behind a kill filter in order to be able to avoid
having to respond to messages such as this one that corrects your
biased nonsense further strengthens the contention that it's you,
not I, that posts "tons of incorrect material". You've rarely ever
tried to correct anything I've said, and when you have, you've
usually (if not always) been wrong.

SMS wrote:
Dave Cohen wrote:

So the first NiMH I bought, Quest low capacity (I think around
1400mah) should have a very low self discharge, but they don't.

Why do you think that?

Batteries are made as cheaply as possible. The point is that the reasons
for high self-discharge of Ni-Cad batteries and NiMH batteries have
always been known, and the way to lower the self-discharge was been
known for a long time prior to the eneloop and other low-discharge
batteries appearing on the market.

It's a trade-off to build a low self-discharge cell in terms of both
manufacturing cost and capacity. Sanyo believed that users would pay a
higher price and accept lower capacity, in exchange for lower
self-discharge. If they can educate the general public on the benefits,
then they may be right.

To answer Thomas, yes anything can be got on-line, problem is postage.
I can avoid that by exceeding the $25 for free postage from my
favorite Amazon. I thought I got the licensing info from the internet
but can't locate the post.

Yes, Amazon tends to be the lowest price for most items, especially with
their free shipping. Usually only Costco and Sam's Club beats Amazon.
The Costco deal on eneloops is very good. I'm slowly replacing most of
the batteries in devices at my house with eneloop. Wireless mice, remote
controls, game controllers (those Wii controllers really eat batteries),
etc.

I think they have a good idea. For most people, a battery with 2100mAh
that retains its charge for a month is much better than a 2700mAh
battery that loses 50% of its charge after a month of disuse. For those
who routinely use a set of batteries in a day's shooting, the higher
price, and lower capacity wouldn't be an advantage.
For my uses, the Eneloop batteries are a great value.

SMS wrote:
Bill Tuthill wrote:
SMS wrote:
I believe the principal effect of the new Eneloop and Hybrid batteries
will be higher sales of digicams that accept standard AA batteries.

I doubt it, because the manufacturer always wants to make things
smaller.

Small cellphones are more popular than large, especially with women.

But cameras are already small enough, and if anything the impetus is to
make them bigger to fit a larger LCD screen.

No, they fit a larger LCD screen by getting rid of everything else on
the back, like the viewfinder. Even with a bigger screen they want to
make them thin.

The market is being segemented into ultra-compact point and shoots and
D-SLRs, with the middle getting sparser because high megapixel compact
cameras can't deliver good enough quality with their tiny sensors.
Something like the S5 can (and does) use AA batteries.

Few people would put up with six AA batteries on a D-SLR unless they
include something like the battery tray that's used in the vertical
grips. D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA batteries won't
work, and even four AA batteries is a hassle.

We'll see what happens, but I very much doubt that the advent of
low-discharge NiMH batteries is going to cause camera makers to move
away from Li-Ion and Li-Po. The advantages over AA batteries are still
overwhelming, even with low-discharge AA batteries. Remember,
manufacturers are good at looking at the big picture, including issues
like warranty repair costs, where AA batteries have a big disadvantage.

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"

The smaller the camera, the more advantage the Li-ion battery has, but
in most cases, there is still room for a couple of AA batteries. In
cases where space/weight are the primary considerations, Li-ion
batteries are the logical choice. When the device is a bit larger, and
the weight isn't critical, the current NiMH battery is likely as good,
and almost always cheaper.

Ron Hunter wrote:

I think they have a good idea. For most people, a battery with 2100mAh
that retains its charge for a month is much better than a 2700mAh
battery that loses 50% of its charge after a month of disuse. For those
who routinely use a set of batteries in a day's shooting, the higher
price, and lower capacity wouldn't be an advantage.
For my uses, the Eneloop batteries are a great value.

I think the same applies to most battery users. We were going through a
lot of batteries in our house, and while I had many NiMH batteries they
were too inconvenient because most of the devices they were in were
either infrequently used, or were low current draw where the
self-discharge energy exceeded the actual used energy. Hopefully the
eneloop will pretty much eliminate the wasteful Alkaline habit.

The other advantage of eneloop, from a marketing perspective anyway, is
that they can be sold already charged.

Ron Hunter wrote:

The smaller the camera, the more advantage the Li-ion battery has, but
in most cases, there is still room for a couple of AA batteries.

I see a lot of ultra-oompacts, and a lot of digital SLRs, and fewer and
fewer cameras in the middle (like the Canon A series). This trend is
also reflected in camera sales, D-SLR sales are increasing at a greater
rate than non-D-SLR cameras.

While it's possible to make a D-SLR that runs on AA batteries, it's
uncommon because in a D-SLR the Li-Ion pack provides additional
advantages for D-SLRs.

Many digital SLRs can use six AA batteries in the optional vertical
battery grip (or two Li-Ion packs). The six AA batteries go into a tray
which is inserted into the grip. This solves the problem of fumbling
with twelve AA batteries, since they sell spare trays (as well as
solving the problem of flaky battery doors).

There's only a couple of AA powered, current D-SLR models on the market
now, with less than stellar reviews. In fact, several of the cons that
are listed in the reviews, are directly related to the power source. If
they had gone to six AA batteries rather than four, the camera size
would be larger but they'd have been able to solve some of the issue
caused by the lower voltage (4.8-5V for four AA, 7.2-7.5V for six AA,
7.4V for a Li-Ion pack with two cells inside).

Steve
"http://batterydata.com"

On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:13:10 -0700, SMS wrote:

D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA batteries won't
work, and even four AA batteries is a hassle.

Your statement that "four AA batteries won't work" is flat out
wrong, as owners of Pentax's K100D can tell you. It's one of those
cameras that you may also be surprised to know doesn't include
rechargeable batteries or a charger in the box, only 4 AA alkalines.
It can also use a pair of CR-V3 batteries in a pinch. Think of
Pentax's savings due to warrantees that aren't needed.

Do you think that this is the only DSLR that uses four AA
batteries? Short answer. No. There are several others, and they
all have good battery life.

While it's possible to make a D-SLR that runs on AA batteries, it's
uncommon because in a D-SLR the Li-Ion pack provides additional
advantages for D-SLRs.

Huh? From "D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA
batteries won't work" to "it's possible to make a D-SLR that runs on
AA batteries, it's uncommon" in your next message salvo. That's a
quick flip-flop! And you claim that your kill filter prevents you
from reading my replies. Will wonders never cease?


In fact, several of the cons that are listed in the reviews, are directly
related to the power source.

Why not mention the cons (or even name some of those DSLRs, as
I've done) unless you're trying to con us? In all of the reviews of
those DSLRs that I've seen, battery life was said to be good.
You're back to your old deceptive spin tricks, I see. If you don't
reply I'll understand, since the need to continue keeping up
appearances can sometimes seem important.

ASAAR wrote:
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:13:10 -0700, SMS wrote:


D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA batteries won't
work, and even four AA batteries is a hassle.


Your statement that "four AA batteries won't work" is flat out
wrong, as owners of Pentax's K100D can tell you. It's one of those
cameras that you may also be surprised to know doesn't include
rechargeable batteries or a charger in the box, only 4 AA alkalines.
It can also use a pair of CR-V3 batteries in a pinch. Think of
Pentax's savings due to warrantees that aren't needed.

Do you think that this is the only DSLR that uses four AA
batteries? Short answer. No. There are several others, and they
all have good battery life.


While it's possible to make a D-SLR that runs on AA batteries, it's
uncommon because in a D-SLR the Li-Ion pack provides additional
advantages for D-SLRs.


Huh? From "D-SLRs use a lot of power so going to four AA
batteries won't work" to "it's possible to make a D-SLR that runs on
AA batteries, it's uncommon" in your next message salvo. That's a
quick flip-flop! And you claim that your kill filter prevents you
from reading my replies. Will wonders never cease?



In fact, several of the cons that are listed in the reviews, are directly
related to the power source.


Why not mention the cons (or even name some of those DSLRs, as
I've done) unless you're trying to con us? In all of the reviews of
those DSLRs that I've seen, battery life was said to be good.
You're back to your old deceptive spin tricks, I see. If you don't
reply I'll understand, since the need to continue keeping up
appearances can sometimes seem important.


Indeed. My Pentax K100D, using AA Eneloops, has great battery life.
And it takes great pictures.

Jim