rapid, non-hardening alkaline fixer, questions on formulae

I've researched on two other fixer formula because F-24 is a slow fixer. I
want a rapid fixer.

Here are the formulae:

Neutral rapid fixer
ammonium thiosulfate (60% solution) 200ml
sodium sulfite 15g
sodium metabisulfite 5g
water to make 1 liter

+ However, I've read that ammonium in fixer is not for open trays because of
the ammonium fumes.

~

So, here is another formula, the TF-2 Alkaline Sodium Thiosulfate Fixer

Distilled water 1000 ml
Sodium Thiosulfate 250 g
Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 15 g
Sodium Metaborate 10 g

TF-2 will wash out of negative and print materials more rapidly than will an
acid fixer. In jackspcs.com, it was not indicated how long PRINTS should be
fixed in this specific fixer (but it was indicated it should be washed for 30
minutes).

My questions a

1. The resource for the neutral rapid fixer formula didn't indicate the
length of time for fixing FB prints. How long should FB prints be fixed in
neutral rapid fixer?

2. Which fixer (neutral rapid fixer, or TF-2 alkaline) would you recommend?

3. If TF-2, how many minutes does it take for FB prints to be fixed in this
fixer? Someone told me it takes 10 minutes to fix prints with TF-2, but an
online source stated it fixes films (3-5 minutes) and prints (no. of minutes
not stated) faster than usual fixers; so I thought, if it fixes faster, then
it should not be 10 minutes like a regular fixer. How long, really, does TF-
2 take to fix FB prints?

4. I assume that since ther is no alum in either formula, then these fixers
are non-hardening fixers. Is my assumption right?

5. Would you know other rapid fixer formula/e that would work with FB prints?
If you do, and if you recommend that fixer, please post the formula here.

Bear with me as I am only beginning to learn mixing my own chemicals. I
really hope you could help me. Thanks.

--
+Shakti V.

Message posted via PhotoKB.com
http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forums.as...kroom/200610/1

"Shakti V. via PhotoKB.com" u15922@uwe wrote in message
news:67764ee139b1e@uwe...
I've researched on two other fixer formula because F-24 is
a slow fixer. I
want a rapid fixer.

Here are the formulae:

Neutral rapid fixer
ammonium thiosulfate (60% solution) 200ml
sodium sulfite 15g
sodium metabisulfite 5g
water to make 1 liter

+ However, I've read that ammonium in fixer is not for
open trays because of
the ammonium fumes.

~

So, here is another formula, the TF-2 Alkaline Sodium
Thiosulfate Fixer

Distilled water 1000 ml
Sodium Thiosulfate 250 g
Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 15 g
Sodium Metaborate 10 g

TF-2 will wash out of negative and print materials more
rapidly than will an
acid fixer. In jackspcs.com, it was not indicated how long
PRINTS should be
fixed in this specific fixer (but it was indicated it
should be washed for 30
minutes).

My questions a

1. The resource for the neutral rapid fixer formula didn't
indicate the
length of time for fixing FB prints. How long should FB
prints be fixed in
neutral rapid fixer?

2. Which fixer (neutral rapid fixer, or TF-2 alkaline)
would you recommend?

3. If TF-2, how many minutes does it take for FB prints to
be fixed in this
fixer? Someone told me it takes 10 minutes to fix prints
with TF-2, but an
online source stated it fixes films (3-5 minutes) and
prints (no. of minutes
not stated) faster than usual fixers; so I thought, if it
fixes faster, then
it should not be 10 minutes like a regular fixer. How
long, really, does TF-
2 take to fix FB prints?

4. I assume that since ther is no alum in either formula,
then these fixers
are non-hardening fixers. Is my assumption right?

5. Would you know other rapid fixer formula/e that would
work with FB prints?
If you do, and if you recommend that fixer, please post
the formula here.

Bear with me as I am only beginning to learn mixing my own
chemicals. I
really hope you could help me. Thanks.

--
+Shakti V.

Message posted via PhotoKB.com
http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forums.as...kroom/200610/1

Most conventional fixer formulas can be converted to
"rapid" fixer by replacing the Sodium Thiosulfate with
Ammonium Thiosulfate in the correct amount.
The simplest fixer formula is just the thiosulfate and
Sodium Sulfide. 5 grams per liter of Sulfide is enough to
protect the Thiosulfate but some additional will prevent
staining by carried over developer, around 15 grams per
liter.
There two reasons for making a fixing bath acid: one is
for the hardener, alum hardener works only when acid; the
other reason is to prevent carried over developer from being
active. If a plain water stop bath is used with a neutral or
alkaline fixer it must be thorough enough to wash out the
developer. However, if there is enough sulfite in the fixing
bath it will prevent carried over developer from causing
staining although it will continue to develop just a little.
Fixing time for either film or paper depends partly on
the nature of the emulsion and varies with any kind of
fixer. Rapid fixer _at film strength_ fixes paper fairly
quickly but the time varies from around 30 seconds for some
types to over a minute for others. The only way to test for
this is to fix samples for varying times and test them for
residual silver halide. The standard tests are either a 1%
solution of Sodium Sulfide or a 1:9 dilution of Kodak Rapid
Selenium Toner. The toner test works only if the emulsion
has been well washed. Instructions for making up the Sulfite
test can be found in several Kodak publications but I am not
sure its on Kodak's web site anywhere. The test solutions
"tone" any residual halide just as they would image silver.
If the prints or films are completely fixed the test
solution will not produce a stain. Any yellow or brown stain
indicates incomplete fixing.
There is a lot of misunderstanding about wash times.
Neither Sodium or Ammonium fixer has any advantage this way.
In a normal acid fixer with white alum hardener washing
times are extended because two conditions tend to bind the
thiosulfate and the reaction products of fixing to the
emulsion. One factor is the alum hardener. Alum tends to act
like a mordant when in an acid environment binding the
thiosulfate rather tightly to the emulsion. The other factor
is pH. Photographic gelatin has a "natural" pH, or
Isoelectric point, just on the acid side of neutral. When
acid it tends to bind thiosulfate because of the electric
charges of the atoms. When made neutral this binding force
is eliminated and the gelatin tends to repel the Thiosulfate
ions and also the Thiosulfate complexes that result from
fixing. At neutral pH alum hardener still functions as a
hardener. The electric charge binding can be eliminated by
making the emulsion alkaline but the hardening action of the
alum is destroyed.
A plain Thiosulfate and Sulfite fixer is about neutral,
additional alkali really is not necessary.
Wash times for fixer which is neutral and has no alum
hardener in it are about half those for hardening acid
fixer. Note that thiosulfate is bound up in the support of
fiber base paper by other forces, notably frictional forces.
The nature of the fixing bath does not affect this a lot so
fiber paper still needs long wash times compared to RC or
film.
The use of a neutral Sulfite wash aid, like Kodak Hypo
Clearing Agent, will change the pH of film or paper to
neutral and also has the property of displacing Thiosulfate
ions and fixer reaction products by an ion-exchange
function. When a sulfite wash aid is used wash times are
considerably shortened even when an alkaline fixer is used.
Film washes out in 5 minutes, double weight fiber paper in
about 20 minutes. The wash aid will also dislodge some
reaction products of incomplete fixing which otherwise do
not wash out even in very extended washes.
Ammonium fixing baths do have some Ammonia odor. The
neutral fixers have less than acid fixers but it is still
there. These fumes are NOT dangerous but may be irritating
for some people. I don't know of a solution for this. Acid
fixing baths of all types tend to evolve some Sulfur Dioxide
gas, this is the "sharp" odor associated with fixing baths.
It can be very irritating to some people and can set off
Asthma, etc. Neutral or alkaline baths produce much less of
this gas than acid baths.
There are a number of ready mixed neutral or alkaline
fixing baths on the market. They are used in color
processing and are also sold separately. Some fixers are
sold with the hardener in a separate container which can be
added or left out at will. Kodak Rapid Liquid Fixer and
Hardener comes this way. The hardener bottle also has
additional acid in it. Without the hardener this fixer is
still acid but less so and has less odor.
To insure complete fixing a two bath system is
recommended, especially for Sodium Thiosulfate fixer. One
begins with two fresh fixing baths and fixes for half the
time in each. The second bath remains relatively fresh and
can complete the chain of reactions necessary to make all
the unused Silver Halide in the emulsion soluble so it
washes out. The capacity of a single fixing bath to do this
is very limited, a two bath system has on the order of ten
times the capacity of a single bath.
BTW, because RC paper has a very thin emulsion it washes
out completely in about 4 minutes even when using an acid
hardening fixer. The use of a wash aid is not necessary.
I hope this is helpful.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

Just use Rapid Fixer with hardener. Forget all this nonsense.

Shakti V. via PhotoKB.com wrote:
I've researched on two other fixer formula because F-24 is a slow fixer. I
want a rapid fixer.

Here are the formulae:

Neutral rapid fixer
ammonium thiosulfate (60% solution) 200ml
sodium sulfite 15g
sodium metabisulfite 5g
water to make 1 liter

+ However, I've read that ammonium in fixer is not for open trays because of
the ammonium fumes.

~

So, here is another formula, the TF-2 Alkaline Sodium Thiosulfate Fixer

Distilled water 1000 ml
Sodium Thiosulfate 250 g
Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 15 g
Sodium Metaborate 10 g

TF-2 will wash out of negative and print materials more rapidly than will an
acid fixer. In jackspcs.com, it was not indicated how long PRINTS should be
fixed in this specific fixer (but it was indicated it should be washed for 30
minutes).

My questions a

1. The resource for the neutral rapid fixer formula didn't indicate the
length of time for fixing FB prints. How long should FB prints be fixed in
neutral rapid fixer?

2. Which fixer (neutral rapid fixer, or TF-2 alkaline) would you recommend?

3. If TF-2, how many minutes does it take for FB prints to be fixed in this
fixer? Someone told me it takes 10 minutes to fix prints with TF-2, but an
online source stated it fixes films (3-5 minutes) and prints (no. of minutes
not stated) faster than usual fixers; so I thought, if it fixes faster, then
it should not be 10 minutes like a regular fixer. How long, really, does TF-
2 take to fix FB prints?

4. I assume that since ther is no alum in either formula, then these fixers
are non-hardening fixers. Is my assumption right?

5. Would you know other rapid fixer formula/e that would work with FB prints?
If you do, and if you recommend that fixer, please post the formula here.

Bear with me as I am only beginning to learn mixing my own chemicals. I
really hope you could help me. Thanks.

--
+Shakti V.

Message posted via PhotoKB.com
http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forums.as...kroom/200610/1

An alkaline rapid fixer will speed up your washing time by a
considerable amount. Our Silvergrain Clearfix Alkaline Fixer is an
improvement on older alkaline fixers, as it has no precipitate and has
an enhanced buffering system. This is a true rapid fixer based on
ammonium thiosulphate. For more information please read the technical
data sheet:

http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/si...ixandwash.html

--Jon Mided

Digitaltruth Photo
http://www.digitaltruth.com

"nailer" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 21:25:17 GMT, "Richard Knoppow"
wrote:

------------------------------
#
# Most conventional fixer formulas can be converted to
#"rapid" fixer by replacing the Sodium Thiosulfate with
#Ammonium Thiosulfate in the correct amount.
# The simplest fixer formula is just the thiosulfate and
#Sodium Sulfide. 5 grams per liter of Sulfide is enough to
#protect the Thiosulfate but some additional will prevent
#staining by carried over developer, around 15 grams per
#liter.

$$$$$$$it pays to learn the difference between sulfites
and sulfides.



I know the difference, evidently you can't tell typing
errors from actual mistakes.


------------------------------X

# Ammonium fixing baths do have some Ammonia odor. The
#neutral fixers have less than acid fixers but it is still
#there.

acid fixers have less of ammonia odour than neutral and
alkaline. Pure
chemistry. In acid solution ammonia tends to form ammonium
ions
(odourless).

----------------------------X


my advice - just stick to plain thiosulfate/sulfiTe
solutions. Modern
materials do NOT need extra hardening.

Use sulfite bath afterwards.


Ammonium thiosulfate works faster than sodium equivalent,
but smells.
Isnt it smarter and safer to use sodium salts and extend
fixing time
by 50%? Cheaper too.

The literature indicates that Ammonium Thiosulfate is
less sensitive to accumulated Iodide ions than Sodium
Thiosulfate. This may have an advantage in fixing film which
usually has a large content of Silver Iodide. There may be
little advantage for paper where there is less Silver Iodide
although variable contrast emulsions are supposed to have
quite a bit.
There is probably little advantage except shorter fixing
time for Ammonium thiosulfate in a two bath system.
An advantage of neutral or alkaline Ammonium Thiosulfate
fixer is that it does not bleach. Acid Ammonium fixer is a
mild bleach for metallic silver and can cause problems where
fixing time is carefully controlled. In fact, Kodak's
recommendation for removing dichroic fog is acid rapid fixer
with Citric acid (15 grams per liter of working solution)
added.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

In article 67764ee139b1e@uwe,
"Shakti V. via PhotoKB.com" u15922@uwe writes:

Here are the formulae:

Neutral rapid fixer

(Details snipped.) FWIW, the formula you posted is Ryuji Suzuki's
creation; its Web page is:

http://wiki.silvergrain.org/wiki/index.php/Fixer

I mention this because it's not clear if you got it from there or from
some other source with less information.

+ However, I've read that ammonium in fixer is not for open trays because of
the ammonium fumes.

The extent of the ammonia odor varies from one formula to another; with
some, it's pretty strong, but for others it's barely noticeable. I don't
know about Suzuki's Neutral Rapid Fixer, since I've never used it. I have
used a commercial variant, Silvergrain Clearfix Alkaline
(http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/si...xandwash.html). It has a
very subdued ammonia odor; however, it's not identical to the posted
formula. The two might vary in the strength of their ammonia odors.

So, here is another formula, the TF-2 Alkaline Sodium Thiosulfate Fixer

Distilled water 1000 ml
Sodium Thiosulfate 250 g
Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 15 g
Sodium Metaborate 10 g

TF-2 will wash out of negative and print materials more rapidly than will an
acid fixer. In jackspcs.com, it was not indicated how long PRINTS should be
fixed in this specific fixer (but it was indicated it should be washed for 30
minutes).

This formula is published in Anchell's _Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_
(formula #134). Anchell specifies a 10-minute fixing time for prints, so
this doesn't qualify as a rapid fixer in my opinion. This isn't
surprising, since rapid fixers are usually made using ammonium thiosulfate
rather than sodium thiosulfate.

FWIW, I've used the rapid variant of TF-2, known as TF-3. It's definitely
got a strong ammonia odor. Despite this fact, I've used it in trays. It
wasn't a pleasant experience, but it was actually less bothersome than
acid fixers, which irritate my nasal passages although they don't have as
strong an odor.

A commercial variant of TF-3, known as TF-4, is available. I've never used
TF-4, but it's supposed to have a less powerful odor. It's also pretty
inexpensive.

2. Which fixer (neutral rapid fixer, or TF-2 alkaline) would you recommend?

I've not used either of them. Personally, I hate sitting there fixing
prints for 10 minutes, so I use rapid fixers now, especially for prints.
In theory, it won't make any difference for the quality of your final
prints, assuming you use the products correctly. Thus, it's really a
question of personal preferences for things like your patience for long
fixing time, your tolerance of ammonia odor, your sensitivity to the
sulfur dioxide produced by acid fixers, etc. You may just need to try
multiple products to figure some of these things out; one person's
"overpowering ammonia odor" may be another person's "barely noticeable
ammonia odor" -- and similarly for other factors.

4. I assume that since ther is no alum in either formula, then these fixers
are non-hardening fixers. Is my assumption right?

Correct. This shouldn't make much difference for most products. The
emulsions of Efke films are reportedly rather delicate and can benefit
from hardeners, but for most films and papers it shouldn't make much
difference.

5. Would you know other rapid fixer formula/e that would work with FB prints?
If you do, and if you recommend that fixer, please post the formula here.

As I mentioned, I've used TF-3 (http://www.jackspcs.com/tf3.htm) with
success, but it does have a strong ammonia odor. I've recently been using
Silvergrain Clearfix. It's got a much more subdued ammonia odor than TF-3
but is almost as fast-acting. Its Web site has unusually clear and
extensive instructions. On the downside, it's pricier than some products.
I'm thinking of giving TF-4 a try for this reason.

Bear with me as I am only beginning to learn mixing my own chemicals. I
really hope you could help me. Thanks.

I've mixed my own fixers from time to time, but for the most part, IMHO
it's not worth the bother. Certain commercial products, such as TF-4 and
Kodak's Flexicolor (C-41) fixer, are actually less expensive than anything
you could mix up yourself, unless you find a good local source of the
sodium or ammonium thiosulfate. (Flexicolor fixer, despire being marketed
for color film, works fine with B&W film and paper, and has the advantage
of being very inexpensive. I don't know the exact fixing time for B&W
paper, though.)

--
Rod Smith,
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Rod Smith wrote:

This formula is published in Anchell's _Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_
(formula #134). Anchell specifies a 10-minute fixing time for prints, so
this doesn't qualify as a rapid fixer in my opinion. This isn't
surprising, since rapid fixers are usually made using ammonium thiosulfate
rather than sodium thiosulfate.
.....
I've not used either of them. Personally, I hate sitting there fixing
prints for 10 minutes, so I use rapid fixers now, especially for prints.

I really doubt it takes anything like 10 minutes to fix paper
in fresh sodium thiosulphate fixer. I just did a clearing test
with a clip of Eastman 5302 film which has a bromide paper type
emulsion. After a presoak in water of a few minutes, clearing
time in fresh Kodak Fixer was 50 seconds. (I thought the film
looked pretty clear after 40 seconds, but it nearly vanished
at 50 seconds.)

Peter.
--

I believe that fixing time for films in TF-2 (sodium thiosulfate based fixer)
is 3-5 minutes. For prints, though, it wasn't specified, although a lot of
users say that, to be safe, fix for 5-10 minutes, depending on exhaustion.
Clearing times(i.e., 50secs.) should be mulitplied twice or more preferably,
thrice, for film fixing time.

As for the neutral rapid fixer, yes, the source was wiki.silvergrain.org. I
am perplexed why they didn't post any other details like fixing time for
prints and films, and dilution. Still, no one has given me an answer. Since
the formula has 200ml only of ammonium thiosulphate, while TF-3 has 800ml
(dilution 1:4, fixing time 1minute for prints), would it be a good assumption
to dilute neutral rapid fixer 1:1, and fix for 1-2 minutes?

To everyone,

Thanks for your replies. I am now at a phase of wanting to learn the science
of mixing my own chemicals. It will also be practical for me as it's
becoming a desert here when it comes to supplies for traditional photography.
Shipping is more expensive than my energy and raw chemical cost.

I am now working on the TF-3 formula. I will post a new thread regarding the
process of mixing it and the results. Please post your comments and
suggestions there.

Grazie.


I really doubt it takes anything like 10 minutes to fix paper
in fresh sodium thiosulphate fixer. I just did a clearing test
with a clip of Eastman 5302 film which has a bromide paper type
emulsion. After a presoak in water of a few minutes, clearing
time in fresh Kodak Fixer was 50 seconds. (I thought the film
looked pretty clear after 40 seconds, but it nearly vanished
at 50 seconds.)

Peter.

--
+Shakti V.

Message posted via http://www.photokb.com

Films vary in clearing time, but I don't think
I'd fix any film for less than 3 minutes, let
alone 50 seconds. It's generally recommended to
fix _TWICE_ the clearing time for film...Prints
(in rapid fix mixed film strength) can be fixed
30 to 60 seconds (FB.) Kodak actually says 5302
film should be fixed 2 TO _10_ minutes at 65 to
70 degrees F depending on the film/fix combo.
Please see KODAK pub. E103CF.pdf

Peter Irwin wrote:

Rod Smith wrote:

This formula is published in Anchell's _Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition_
(formula #134). Anchell specifies a 10-minute fixing time for prints, so
this doesn't qualify as a rapid fixer in my opinion. This isn't
surprising, since rapid fixers are usually made using ammonium thiosulfate
rather than sodium thiosulfate.
....
I've not used either of them. Personally, I hate sitting there fixing
prints for 10 minutes, so I use rapid fixers now, especially for prints.

I really doubt it takes anything like 10 minutes to fix paper
in fresh sodium thiosulphate fixer. I just did a clearing test
with a clip of Eastman 5302 film which has a bromide paper type
emulsion. After a presoak in water of a few minutes, clearing
time in fresh Kodak Fixer was 50 seconds. (I thought the film
looked pretty clear after 40 seconds, but it nearly vanished
at 50 seconds.)

Peter.
--

Tom Phillips wrote:
Films vary in clearing time, but I don't think
I'd fix any film for less than 3 minutes, let
alone 50 seconds. It's generally recommended to
fix _TWICE_ the clearing time for film.

I know. I just indicated that 5302 clears much
faster than camera films, therefore should also
probably have a shorter fixing time. Since 5302
resembles paper emulsion, I suspect that paper
fixes in less than half the time required
by typical camera films.

...Prints
(in rapid fix mixed film strength) can be fixed
30 to 60 seconds (FB.)

This also supports the idea that paper fixes
faster than film. I find it hard to credit
the idea that sodium hypo would be ten times
slower than ammonium hypo unless it has been
seriously overworked. People do overwork
paper fixer because it is hard to tell by
looking when the fixer starts to lose activity.
If you use sodium hypo then a two bath fixer
looks like a really good idea. I'd just be
really surprised if two minutes in each bath
weren't long enough.

Peter.
--