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Got my Nikon back - still broken.



 
 
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  #51  
Old August 8th 06, 02:52 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Neil Harrington
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,001
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
Neil Harrington wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...

Neil Harrington wrote:

Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras.
Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S.


Oh, it's the *pictograms* that make it so?!

Then you should call 'em pictogram cameras, not P&S. They are certainly
not point-and-shoots.

Read my characters: POINT & SHOOT. Set little PICTOGRAM,



Real point-and-shoot cameras don't have many little pictograms. Typically
one or two. Basically you turn the camera on, point it at something and
shoot. Hence the expression "point and shoot." (Duh.)



turn off any knowledge of phogoraphy and press-de-button.


By your definition ("Any camera with pictograms") a Nikon D2H or D2x is
a P&S. I doubt you'll find many who agree with you on this.

Thay have pictograms? BWAAAHHHAHAHAHA. What an insult to real
photographers paying a high price for features aimed at well heeled
P&Sers. (Reminds me of the fellow ....)




It comes down to the LACK of *photographic* control on body buttons,
dials, levers, switches, etc.



Advanced dSLRs like the D2x have lots of those "body buttons, dials,
levers, switches, etc." They also have lots of little pictograms that go
with the body buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc. so the photographer
will know what they do. The little pictograms make a lot more sense than
printing out this information in 1.5-point type on the camera.


The "pictograms" in question are the exposure mode ones such as little
flowers, a background in or out of focus, "sunny" "backlit" etc. These
are for people who really do not have a care for what goes into
photography.


The little flower is a logical pictogram for close-up mode. It takes up less
space than printing "CLOSE-UP" on or near the button would, which is
important for compact and ultracompact cameras. Since it's a function of the
lens rather than the body, it does not appear on any digital SLR as far as I
know, and the others you mention rarely if ever appear on any type of camera
I've seen.



Perhaps you have a camera with no pictograms at all. That sounds like a
Baby Brownie. Some day you too may have a camera with lots of body
buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc. and you will appreciate the little
pictograms.


I assure that my Maxxum 9 and 7D do not have any pictorgrams and they


If your 7D doesn't have any pictograms it's a very unusual one, since the
standard 7D has lots of them.


are also replete with all the buttons/switches/levers/dials etc. that you
can shale a stick at. I do lie a bit, the 7D has a pictogram for the
anti-shake.


It should have a lot more pictograms than that! Pictograms for single frame,
continuous advance, self-timer and bracketing -- and that's just on the
drive mode dial (you can find it under the exposure mode dial). On the back
there are more pictograms for display, magnification, delete (see that cute
little trash can?), playback, metering mode, etc. I think you need to look
at your 7D more carefully.


I further assure you that I know what depth of field, shutter speed and
fill light do to an image so a pictogram is hardly needed. Despite all
the above, the type size is approx 10 to 20 depending on function and
quite legible.

But I do invite you to get whatever P&S camera you need that might help
you in your photography ... with the pictograms.


Touchy, touchy. If you didn't have all those pictograms on your 7D you'd be
at a serious disadvantage -- but of course it's possible you never use those
features or adjustments anyway so it doesn't matter to you. For example, if
you never have occasion to switch metering mode between center-weighted,
matrix and spot, then I suppose you can just leave that switch in the
position it came in out of the box, and never worry about it.

Neil


  #52  
Old August 8th 06, 06:59 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
DoN. Nichols
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 405
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)

According to Neil Harrington :

"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...


[ ... ]

The "pictograms" in question are the exposure mode ones such as little
flowers, a background in or out of focus, "sunny" "backlit" etc. These
are for people who really do not have a care for what goes into
photography.


The little flower is a logical pictogram for close-up mode. It takes up less
space than printing "CLOSE-UP" on or near the button would, which is
important for compact and ultracompact cameras. Since it's a function of the
lens rather than the body, it does not appear on any digital SLR as far as I
know, and the others you mention rarely if ever appear on any type of camera
I've seen.


Well ... there is a flower pictogram (icon) (along with others)
on the "mode dial" to the left of the pentaprism hump on the Nikon D70.
But what it does there is adjust the priorities of the automatic
exposure control to favor close-ups. There are several other selections
on the dial, other than "Auto", "Program", "Shutter-preferred",
"Aperture-preferred" and "Manual".

The close-up icon seems to change the color balance, among other things.
It switches focus area to center focus (which can be overridden).
It sets flash to front-curtain sync.

The manual does not truly detail exactly what it does, this is
(in part) from reading between the lines.

Other fancy modes (with icons) offered:
================================================== ====================
Portrait Favors larger apertures
Front curtain flash sync

Landscape Apparently turns on image enhancement.

Sports High shutter speeds.
Continuous focus tracking while shutter is half-pressed.
Turns *off* built in flash and autofocus assist (not
that useful at a distance, anyway.)

The continuous tracking mode for the autofocus might be
a reason for me to use that mode, rather than diving
into a menu to change from one-shot focus to continuous.

Night Landscape Turns off flash and autofocus assist.

Night Portrait Balances flash for foreground and background illumination.
================================================== ====================

I didn't bother to describe the icons.

So -- I might wind up using the "sports" setting from time to
time. (to get quick access to the continuous-focus AF) The rest, I can
usually accomplish on my own in P, A, S, or M modes.

So -- there are serious cameras with the icons to assist
non-serious users.

One (of many) thing that I wish the D70 had which the D200 does
is the lock to keep the mode wheel from turning unless you push the lock
to release it. Every so often, I discover that rubbing against my body
or my arm has shifted the mode dial from my default "P" setting, used
for quick response to sudden opportunities. Program "P" mode turns off
the two most offensive auto features (autofocus zone selects the nearest
subject in the viewfinder, and pops up the flash even when I don't want
it), but gives me "quick grab" capabilities, otherwise.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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  #53  
Old August 8th 06, 09:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Neil Harrington
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,001
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
According to Neil Harrington :

"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...


[ ... ]

The "pictograms" in question are the exposure mode ones such as little
flowers, a background in or out of focus, "sunny" "backlit" etc. These
are for people who really do not have a care for what goes into
photography.


The little flower is a logical pictogram for close-up mode. It takes up
less
space than printing "CLOSE-UP" on or near the button would, which is
important for compact and ultracompact cameras. Since it's a function of
the
lens rather than the body, it does not appear on any digital SLR as far
as I
know, and the others you mention rarely if ever appear on any type of
camera
I've seen.


Well ... there is a flower pictogram (icon) (along with others)
on the "mode dial" to the left of the pentaprism hump on the Nikon D70.


Right, I see it's on the D70s also. (Slightly red face. :-) )

I think I have too many cameras.


But what it does there is adjust the priorities of the automatic
exposure control to favor close-ups. There are several other selections
on the dial, other than "Auto", "Program", "Shutter-preferred",
"Aperture-preferred" and "Manual".


I haven't had the D70s long enough to get really familiar with it, and have
never even looked into that close-up mode. I knew it does have other icons
on that dial that are more or less equivalent in purpose to those on the
Maxxum 5D, just didn't remember the flower icon.



The close-up icon seems to change the color balance, among other things.
It switches focus area to center focus (which can be overridden).
It sets flash to front-curtain sync.

The manual does not truly detail exactly what it does, this is
(in part) from reading between the lines.

Other fancy modes (with icons) offered:
================================================== ====================
Portrait Favors larger apertures
Front curtain flash sync

Landscape Apparently turns on image enhancement.

Sports High shutter speeds.
Continuous focus tracking while shutter is half-pressed.
Turns *off* built in flash and autofocus assist (not
that useful at a distance, anyway.)

The continuous tracking mode for the autofocus might be
a reason for me to use that mode, rather than diving
into a menu to change from one-shot focus to continuous.

Night Landscape Turns off flash and autofocus assist.

Night Portrait Balances flash for foreground and background illumination.
================================================== ====================



Interesting. Most of those I knew or would have assumed, but the Landscape
turning on image enhancement is news to me. Using Sports mode as a quickie
way to get continuous AF is a good tip. In most cases, I suppose when you
want continuous AF you want relatively high shutter speeds too.



I didn't bother to describe the icons.

So -- I might wind up using the "sports" setting from time to
time. (to get quick access to the continuous-focus AF) The rest, I can
usually accomplish on my own in P, A, S, or M modes.

So -- there are serious cameras with the icons to assist
non-serious users.


Absolutely! I have no problem at all with icons or the modes they represent.
With most compact cameras you can see in the Exif data what the mode does
exactly, which I find useful, and in many cases it's just about what I'd
want to do anyway. For example, in Pentax compacts going into "Autumn
colors" (on a menu) mode changes exposure -1/3 stop and boosts saturation
slightly. That works quite well. With Nikon compacts it's easier to go into
"Library" mode which turns off the flash and sets the camera in Best Shot
Selector mode, than to do those two things separately. And I find BSS to be
extremely useful in low light -- almost a "poor man's image stabilization."



One (of many) thing that I wish the D70 had which the D200 does
is the lock to keep the mode wheel from turning unless you push the lock
to release it. Every so often, I discover that rubbing against my body
or my arm has shifted the mode dial from my default "P" setting, used
for quick response to sudden opportunities. Program "P" mode turns off
the two most offensive auto features (autofocus zone selects the nearest
subject in the viewfinder, and pops up the flash even when I don't want
it), but gives me "quick grab" capabilities, otherwise.


I'm not familiar at all with the D200. However, a couple of my older Minolta
DiMAGE cameras (7i, 7Hi) do have a lock on the mode dial and I find it
annoying. It's a spring-loaded tab on the dial, so it's not always in the
same place -- its location depends on what the dial is turned to, so you
always have to look to see where it is before you can turn the dial, and
though that's hardly a major impediment it often seems awkward to me. The
mostly similar A200 doesn't have the lock and I like that a lot better. I
see your point about accidentally moving the dial, though. Mostly that's
happened to me with cameras that had too-weak detents in the dial, and that
was a nuisance.

Neil


  #54  
Old August 9th 06, 01:07 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)

Neil Harrington wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message



The "pictograms" in question are the exposure mode ones such as little
flowers, a background in or out of focus, "sunny" "backlit" etc. These
are for people who really do not have a care for what goes into
photography.



The little flower is a logical pictogram for close-up mode. It takes up less
space than printing "CLOSE-UP" on or near the button would, which is
important for compact and ultracompact cameras. Since it's a function of the
lens rather than the body, it does not appear on any digital SLR as far as I
know, and the others you mention rarely if ever appear on any type of camera
I've seen.


Maxxum 5. Several Canon EOS', Nikon 55, others.




Perhaps you have a camera with no pictograms at all. That sounds like a
Baby Brownie. Some day you too may have a camera with lots of body
buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc. and you will appreciate the little
pictograms.


I assure that my Maxxum 9 and 7D do not have any pictorgrams and they



If your 7D doesn't have any pictograms it's a very unusual one, since the
standard 7D has lots of them.



are also replete with all the buttons/switches/levers/dials etc. that you
can shale a stick at. I do lie a bit, the 7D has a pictogram for the
anti-shake.



It should have a lot more pictograms than that! Pictograms for single frame,
continuous advance, self-timer and bracketing -- and that's just on the
drive mode dial (you can find it under the exposure mode dial). On the back
there are more pictograms for display, magnification, delete (see that cute
little trash can?), playback, metering mode, etc. I think you need to look
at your 7D more carefully.


Metering mode on my 7D is simply "P" "(P)" "A" "S" "M" "1" "2" "3".
Where are the pictorgram? Nope. None.

The "pictorgrams" being discussed are the exposure mode pictograms to
give non photographers instant settings for those situations for which
they can't remember a few simple concepts. (As I clarified a couple
posts ago).

A flower. A face. A figure with sun behind it. Things a photographer
doesn't need a pictorgram for; things a photographer simply sets
correctly in terms of aperture, speed and fill flash if required.

A close up magnifying glass; a trashcan are _functions_ for which those
pictos are entirely logical. They have nothing to do with photography
but data management, viewing, etc. The pictograms for the transport
(bracketting, volley fire, etc.) are likewise modes for how the shutter
button reacts. I have no objection to those and, in any case, if you
showed them to a non-photgrapher he'd be as puzzled as could be without
recourse to the manual.

Touchy, touchy. If you didn't have all those pictograms on your 7D you'd be
at a serious disadvantage -- but of course it's possible you never use those
features or adjustments anyway so it doesn't matter to you. For example, if
you never have occasion to switch metering mode between center-weighted,
matrix and spot, then I suppose you can just leave that switch in the
position it came in out of the box, and never worry about it.


See above. You've missed the whole point. Entirely. The metering
"weight" switch, like other functional switches, presents functional and
useful symbols. It does not present a little rubber ducky or smiling
sun to suggest what I should use it for.

That is what the "pictograms" on the metering mode dial are for: non
thinking photographers with a camera. Glorified P&S' in other words.
The A100 has 6 such modes on the exposure mode dial. P&S.

Cheers,
Alan.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
  #55  
Old August 9th 06, 03:15 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Neil Harrington
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,001
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
Neil Harrington wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message



The "pictograms" in question are the exposure mode ones such as little
flowers, a background in or out of focus, "sunny" "backlit" etc. These
are for people who really do not have a care for what goes into
photography.



The little flower is a logical pictogram for close-up mode. It takes up
less space than printing "CLOSE-UP" on or near the button would, which is
important for compact and ultracompact cameras. Since it's a function of
the lens rather than the body, it does not appear on any digital SLR as
far as I know, and the others you mention rarely if ever appear on any
type of camera I've seen.


Maxxum 5. Several Canon EOS', Nikon 55, others.


Sorry, I meant any type of digital cameras. My bad, I should have been more
specific.





Perhaps you have a camera with no pictograms at all. That sounds like a
Baby Brownie. Some day you too may have a camera with lots of body
buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc. and you will appreciate the
little pictograms.

I assure that my Maxxum 9 and 7D do not have any pictorgrams and they



If your 7D doesn't have any pictograms it's a very unusual one, since the
standard 7D has lots of them.



are also replete with all the buttons/switches/levers/dials etc. that you
can shale a stick at. I do lie a bit, the 7D has a pictogram for the
anti-shake.



It should have a lot more pictograms than that! Pictograms for single
frame, continuous advance, self-timer and bracketing -- and that's just
on the drive mode dial (you can find it under the exposure mode dial). On
the back there are more pictograms for display, magnification, delete
(see that cute little trash can?), playback, metering mode, etc. I think
you need to look at your 7D more carefully.


Metering mode on my 7D is simply "P" "(P)" "A" "S" "M" "1" "2" "3".


Well, those are mostly exposure modes, not metering modes per se.


Where are the pictorgram? Nope. None.


Check the back of the camera, the switch around the AEL button. Icons
(pictograms if you like) for center weighted, matrix, and spot metering.



The "pictorgrams" being discussed are the exposure mode pictograms to give
non photographers instant settings for those situations for which they
can't remember a few simple concepts. (As I clarified a couple posts
ago).


Well, there are pictograms and pictograms. Now you seem to saying *some*
pictograms are contemptible because they're "to give non photographers
instant settings for those situations for which they can't remember a few
simple concepts," while other pictograms are okay. This is quite different
from your original insistence that *any* camera with pictograms must be a
"P&S" or at best a "glorified P&S."



A flower. A face. A figure with sun behind it. Things a photographer
doesn't need a pictorgram for; things a photographer simply sets correctly
in terms of aperture, speed and fill flash if required.


Those are useful things for photographers as well as those you sniff at as
"non photographers." I find those icons useful, and I've been a photography
enthusiast for about 55 years.



A close up magnifying glass; a trashcan are _functions_ for which those
pictos are entirely logical.


So? They are still just as much pictograms as a flower or anything else that
conveys some operational idea to the user. How is a flower meaning
"close-up" or a lady's head meaning "portrait" any less "entirely logical"
than those icons you approve of?


They have nothing to do with photography but data management, viewing,
etc. The pictograms for the transport (bracketting, volley fire, etc.)
are likewise modes for how the shutter button reacts. I have no objection
to those and, in any case, if you showed them to a non-photgrapher he'd be
as puzzled as could be without recourse to the manual.


In some cases yes, in other cases certainly not. What else would a trashcan
icon convey to any user than what it means?

As for those icons you approve of, for example a magnifying glass with a
plus sign, how mysterious would this be to a brand-new inexperienced user?
And for how long? Just until he read about it in the manual, or even just
pressed it during replay. From that point it would be entirely clear to him
and it's unlikely he'd ever forget it. So now he's a real, full-fledged
photographer instead of a "non photographer"?



Touchy, touchy. If you didn't have all those pictograms on your 7D you'd
be at a serious disadvantage -- but of course it's possible you never use
those features or adjustments anyway so it doesn't matter to you. For
example, if you never have occasion to switch metering mode between
center-weighted, matrix and spot, then I suppose you can just leave that
switch in the position it came in out of the box, and never worry about
it.


See above. You've missed the whole point. Entirely. The metering
"weight" switch, like other functional switches, presents functional and
useful symbols.


They *all* "present functional and useful symbols." Every icon has something
to do with the operation of the camera. It's just that some represent
shortcuts that you don't approve of. You apparently believe that doing every
step individually and separately implies some higher, more arcane, more
prestigious way of going about the business of taking photographs, and this
is important to you for its own sake.


It does not present a little rubber ducky or smiling sun to suggest what I
should use it for.


Well, I can't imagine a "little rubber ducky" icon -- maybe that would be
for using the camera in an underwater case or something?



That is what the "pictograms" on the metering mode dial are for: non
thinking photographers with a camera. Glorified P&S' in other words. The
A100 has 6 such modes on the exposure mode dial. P&S.


Any camera with that dial on it cannot be "point and shoot" in anything
remotely like the original, and still current, meaning of that term. Real
point-and-shoot cameras don't offer different exposure modes. As soon as you
add any sort of user controls over exposure, etc., you have taken the
instrument out of the point-and-shoot category.

Take a look at a Konica Big Mini, for example. There's a point-and-shoot for
you. Icons? A couple, self timer and infinity focus. Exposure mode dial? No.
Metering mode dial or switch? No. Any user controls at all over details of
exposure or focus? No. Even something with a flower pictogram? No. That's
what P&S means, Alan. Something you just point and shoot, no controls at
all.

Neil


  #56  
Old August 9th 06, 03:57 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
J. Clarke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 235
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)

Neil Harrington wrote:


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
Neil Harrington wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message



The "pictograms" in question are the exposure mode ones such as little
flowers, a background in or out of focus, "sunny" "backlit" etc. These
are for people who really do not have a care for what goes into
photography.


The little flower is a logical pictogram for close-up mode. It takes up
less space than printing "CLOSE-UP" on or near the button would, which
is important for compact and ultracompact cameras. Since it's a function
of the lens rather than the body, it does not appear on any digital SLR
as far as I know, and the others you mention rarely if ever appear on
any type of camera I've seen.


Maxxum 5. Several Canon EOS', Nikon 55, others.


Sorry, I meant any type of digital cameras. My bad, I should have been
more specific.





Perhaps you have a camera with no pictograms at all. That sounds like a
Baby Brownie. Some day you too may have a camera with lots of body
buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc. and you will appreciate the
little pictograms.

I assure that my Maxxum 9 and 7D do not have any pictorgrams and they


If your 7D doesn't have any pictograms it's a very unusual one, since
the standard 7D has lots of them.



are also replete with all the buttons/switches/levers/dials etc. that
you
can shale a stick at. I do lie a bit, the 7D has a pictogram for the
anti-shake.


It should have a lot more pictograms than that! Pictograms for single
frame, continuous advance, self-timer and bracketing -- and that's just
on the drive mode dial (you can find it under the exposure mode dial).
On the back there are more pictograms for display, magnification, delete
(see that cute little trash can?), playback, metering mode, etc. I think
you need to look at your 7D more carefully.


Metering mode on my 7D is simply "P" "(P)" "A" "S" "M" "1" "2" "3".


Well, those are mostly exposure modes, not metering modes per se.


Where are the pictorgram? Nope. None.


Check the back of the camera, the switch around the AEL button. Icons
(pictograms if you like) for center weighted, matrix, and spot metering.



The "pictorgrams" being discussed are the exposure mode pictograms to
give non photographers instant settings for those situations for which
they
can't remember a few simple concepts. (As I clarified a couple posts
ago).


Well, there are pictograms and pictograms. Now you seem to saying *some*
pictograms are contemptible because they're "to give non photographers
instant settings for those situations for which they can't remember a few
simple concepts," while other pictograms are okay. This is quite different
from your original insistence that *any* camera with pictograms must be a
"P&S" or at best a "glorified P&S."



A flower. A face. A figure with sun behind it. Things a photographer
doesn't need a pi lens capctorgram for; things a photographer simply sets
correctly in terms of aperture, speed and fill flash if required.


Those are useful things for photographers as well as those you sniff at as
"non photographers." I find those icons useful, and I've been a
photography enthusiast for about 55 years.



A close up magnifying glass; a trashcan are _functions_ for which those
pictos are entirely logical.


So? They are still just as much pictograms as a flower or anything else
that conveys some operational idea to the user. How is a flower meaning
"close-up" or a lady's head meaning "portrait" any less "entirely logical"
than those icons you approve of?


They have nothing to do with photography but data management, viewing,
etc. The pictograms for the transport (bracketting, volley fire, etc.)
are likewise modes for how the shutter button reacts. I have no
objection to those and, in any case, if you showed them to a
non-photgrapher he'd be as puzzled as could be without recourse to the
manual.


In some cases yes, in other cases certainly not. What else would a
trashcan icon convey to any user than what it means?

As for those icons you approve of, for example a magnifying glass with a
plus sign, how mysterious would this be to a brand-new inexperienced user?
And for how long? Just until he read about it in the manual, or even just
pressed it during replay. From that point it would be entirely clear to
him and it's unlikely he'd ever forget it. So now he's a real,
full-fledged photographer instead of a "non photographer"?



Touchy, touchy. If you didn't have all those pictograms on your 7D you'd
be at a serious disadvantage -- but of course it's possible you never
use those features or adjustments anyway so it doesn't matter to you.
For example, if you never have occasion to switch metering mode between
center-weighted, matrix and spot, then I suppose you can just leave that
switch in the position it came in out of the box, and never worry about
it.


See above. You've missed the whole point. Entirely. The metering
"weight" switch, like other functional switches, presents functional and
useful symbols.


They *all* "present functional and useful symbols." Every icon has
something to do with the operation of the camera. It's just that some
represent shortcuts that you don't approve of. You apparently believe that
doing every step individually and separately implies some higher, more
arcane, more prestigious way of going about the business of taking
photographs, and this is important to you for its own sake.


It does not present a little rubber ducky or smiling sun to suggest what
I should use it for.


Well, I can't imagine a "little rubber ducky" icon -- maybe that would be
for using the camera in an underwater case or something?



That is what the "pictograms" on the metering mode dial are for: non
thinking photographers with a camera. Glorified P&S' in other words. The
A100 has 6 such modes on the exposure mode dial. P&S.


Any camera with that dial on it cannot be "point and shoot" in anything
remotely like the original, and still current, meaning of that term. Real
point-and-shoot cameras don't offer different exposure modes. As soon as
you add any sort of user controls over exposure, etc., you have taken the
instrument out of the point-and-shoot category.

Take a look at a Konica Big Mini, for example. There's a point-and-shoot
for you. Icons? A couple, self timer and infinity focus. Exposure mode
dial? No. Metering mode dial or switch? No. Any user controls at all over
details of exposure or focus? No. Even something with a flower pictogram?
No. That's what P&S means, Alan. Something you just point and shoot, no
controls at all.


There's a reason for the pictograms by the way, which incidentally are not
normally called "pictograms" but "icons". The alternative is to make
dozens of different shells with writing in Arabic, Hebrew, English, German,
Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Sanskrit, Swahili, and every other language
on Earth. A picture of a flower is universal. Now, one could put the word
"macro" in its place with the assumption that anybody who cares about
photography could learn the English word as well as he could learn the
icon, but in the real world it's not quite that simple--someone whose
written language uses a Roman-derived character set could probably deal
with it easily, but someone who doesn't would have as much trouble with it
as a typical American would have with, say, Hebrew.

Neil


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  #57  
Old August 9th 06, 05:14 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
cjcampbell
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Posts: 421
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)


Neil Harrington wrote:


I'm not familiar at all with the D200. However, a couple of my older Minolta
DiMAGE cameras (7i, 7Hi) do have a lock on the mode dial and I find it
annoying. It's a spring-loaded tab on the dial, so it's not always in the
same place -- its location depends on what the dial is turned to, so you
always have to look to see where it is before you can turn the dial, and
though that's hardly a major impediment it often seems awkward to me. The
mostly similar A200 doesn't have the lock and I like that a lot better. I
see your point about accidentally moving the dial, though. Mostly that's
happened to me with cameras that had too-weak detents in the dial, and that
was a nuisance.


The D200 has a little lock button next to the dial, but the dial's
function is completely different than that of the D70. The D70 dial
sets modes like AUTO, P, A, S, M, and a few programmed modes. The D200
dial sets the multiple shot function for the shutter -- single frame,
slow (programmable) multiple mode, fast multiple shot mode, self-timer,
and "Mup" (mirror up). The D200 has no AUTO mode, nor does it have any
of the programmed modes found on the D70 or D80 (which has the same
mode dial as the D70), but it has P, S, A, and M. These are selected by
pressing the MODE button next to the ON/OFF/LCD Light switch and
rotating the primary function dial.

I really have not got a clue why the D70 and the D80 have an AUTO mode.
The first thing anyone does with them is to turn it off in order to get
rid of the annoying pop-up flash. No one I know uses AUTO. (Or if they
did, I would not admit knowing them. :-) ) The chief function of AUTO
is to turn the camera into a point and shoot. I have no objection to
that, but it seems to be a waste of a lot of good features.

  #58  
Old August 9th 06, 01:00 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Neil Harrington
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Posts: 2,001
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)


"cjcampbell" wrote in message
ups.com...

Neil Harrington wrote:


I'm not familiar at all with the D200. However, a couple of my older
Minolta
DiMAGE cameras (7i, 7Hi) do have a lock on the mode dial and I find it
annoying. It's a spring-loaded tab on the dial, so it's not always in the
same place -- its location depends on what the dial is turned to, so you
always have to look to see where it is before you can turn the dial, and
though that's hardly a major impediment it often seems awkward to me. The
mostly similar A200 doesn't have the lock and I like that a lot better. I
see your point about accidentally moving the dial, though. Mostly that's
happened to me with cameras that had too-weak detents in the dial, and
that
was a nuisance.


The D200 has a little lock button next to the dial, but the dial's
function is completely different than that of the D70. The D70 dial
sets modes like AUTO, P, A, S, M, and a few programmed modes. The D200
dial sets the multiple shot function for the shutter -- single frame,
slow (programmable) multiple mode, fast multiple shot mode, self-timer,
and "Mup" (mirror up). The D200 has no AUTO mode, nor does it have any
of the programmed modes found on the D70 or D80 (which has the same
mode dial as the D70), but it has P, S, A, and M. These are selected by
pressing the MODE button next to the ON/OFF/LCD Light switch and
rotating the primary function dial.

I really have not got a clue why the D70 and the D80 have an AUTO mode.
The first thing anyone does with them is to turn it off in order to get
rid of the annoying pop-up flash. No one I know uses AUTO. (Or if they
did, I would not admit knowing them. :-) ) The chief function of AUTO
is to turn the camera into a point and shoot. I have no objection to
that, but it seems to be a waste of a lot of good features.


Yes, it's a major annoyance indoors with that pesky flash popping up. I
tried Auto mode out of curiosity the first day I got the camera and don't
think I've used it since. And I agree that it doesn't seem to have any place
on an SLR. But I suppose Nikon put it there because they figure a lot of new
SLR users will feel more comfortable having a "green camera" mode such as
they are already familiar with on their compact / ultracompact cameras.

My first auto-everything SLR (as far as I know, the world's first) was the
original Maxxum 7000. A friend of mine was enormously impressed with it and
bought one for himself. He still has it, about 20 years later. As far as I
know he has never taken it out of P mode -- the closest thing to a "green
camera" mode on that camera. I'm about 99% sure he never has. And I'm about
95% sure he never pays the slightest attention to the exposure information
provided in the viewfinder.

There are, I think, a lot of people who buy an SLR because it's "the best
kind of camera," not because they have any real interest in how it works or
what its capabilities are. They are the "green camera" folks, and Nikon may
as well sell SLRs to them too. If they don't, Canon will.

Neil


  #59  
Old August 9th 06, 01:21 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Neil Harrington
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Posts: 2,001
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Neil Harrington wrote:


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...

[ . . . ]

That is what the "pictograms" on the metering mode dial are for: non
thinking photographers with a camera. Glorified P&S' in other words.
The
A100 has 6 such modes on the exposure mode dial. P&S.


Any camera with that dial on it cannot be "point and shoot" in anything
remotely like the original, and still current, meaning of that term. Real
point-and-shoot cameras don't offer different exposure modes. As soon as
you add any sort of user controls over exposure, etc., you have taken the
instrument out of the point-and-shoot category.

Take a look at a Konica Big Mini, for example. There's a point-and-shoot
for you. Icons? A couple, self timer and infinity focus. Exposure mode
dial? No. Metering mode dial or switch? No. Any user controls at all over
details of exposure or focus? No. Even something with a flower pictogram?
No. That's what P&S means, Alan. Something you just point and shoot, no
controls at all.


There's a reason for the pictograms by the way, which incidentally are not
normally called "pictograms" but "icons".


Yes. Alan prefers "pictograms," and while non-standard in this usage I don't
think it's incorrect. I've used both terms interchangeably here.


The alternative is to make
dozens of different shells with writing in Arabic, Hebrew, English,
German,
Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Sanskrit, Swahili, and every other language
on Earth. A picture of a flower is universal. Now, one could put the
word
"macro" in its place with the assumption that anybody who cares about
photography could learn the English word as well as he could learn the
icon, but in the real world it's not quite that simple--someone whose
written language uses a Roman-derived character set could probably deal
with it easily, but someone who doesn't would have as much trouble with it
as a typical American would have with, say, Hebrew.


That's a good point, although those people do have to cope with our language
and character set to some extent anyway, since there are words and
abbreviations in English on the cameras too.

Neil


  #60  
Old August 10th 06, 12:56 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default More photo semiliteracy (was Got my Nikon back - still broken.)

Neil Harrington wrote:


Well, there are pictograms and pictograms. Now you seem to saying *some*
pictograms are contemptible because they're "to give non photographers
instant settings for those situations for which they can't remember a few
simple concepts," while other pictograms are okay. This is quite different
from your original insistence that *any* camera with pictograms must be a
"P&S" or at best a "glorified P&S."


I'm bored with this. The original context was exposure aids (what to
use when it's sunny/people/backlit). You've cleaved (several meaning
here) this to mean what you want.

The basic fact: a camera that has pictograms in lieu of exposure modes
(Aperture, Speed, etc.) is not for serious photographers.

The other symbols you refer to are fine. They are functional meanings,
not aids to people with poor memory or skills. Such symbols have been
on cameras for decades. Only when P&S infection came to 35mm for things
like "sunny"/"people"/"backlit" did some 'lean' 35mm cameras become
glorified P&S. Like the Maxxum 5, 5D and A100.

Cheers,
Alan.


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