Warm tone using developer or toner??

Hi all

I have recently had some pleasing results from using Ilford's warmtone
paper but I'm baulking at having different 'toned' paper stocks for the
sizes that I might want to use (for want of freezer space as much as cost)

So my question is - will I be able to obtain the same colour as warmtone
paper using a developer or toner with normal paper? If so, which is the
best way to go? Does it matter?

Thanks
Paul

In article ,
Paul Mead wrote:

Hi all

I have recently had some pleasing results from using Ilford's warmtone
paper but I'm baulking at having different 'toned' paper stocks for the
sizes that I might want to use (for want of freezer space as much as cost)

So my question is - will I be able to obtain the same colour as warmtone
paper using a developer or toner with normal paper? If so, which is the
best way to go? Does it matter?

Thanks
Paul

I have always felt you can match any tonality using various chemistries
toner included however...getting there. I feel your best option is
buying the largest stock you use in the paper type of choice and cutting
down to the sizes you need. That way everything is the same emulsion.
--
The sometimes insomniac.

www.gregblankphoto.com

Greg "_" wrote:
I feel your best option is
buying the largest stock you use in the paper type of choice and cutting
down to the sizes you need. That way everything is the same emulsion.

That's a thought... is there a way of making this very efficient of
paper? I can obviously cut A4 sheets in half to get two A5 sheets but
no-one seems to make A4 except for Ilford and then not in WT. I'd like
to avoid having to cut down 11x14 to get 8x10 and then waste the rest!

"Paul Mead" wrote in message
...
Hi all

I have recently had some pleasing results from using
Ilford's warmtone paper but I'm baulking at having
different 'toned' paper stocks for the sizes that I might
want to use (for want of freezer space as much as cost)

So my question is - will I be able to obtain the same
colour as warmtone paper using a developer or toner with
normal paper? If so, which is the best way to go? Does it
matter?

Thanks
Paul

I don't think you can exactly match the image color of a
warm tone paper by toning. However, toning with certain
toners substantially improves image stability so its
desirable if you can get an acceptable color.
The image color of a toned print depends on several
factors, mostly the color of the original image. The warmer
it is the more it will tone. If a sulfiding toner is used
the color will shift from purplish for cold tone papers
toward yellow-brown for warm tone papers. Selenium is
affected similarly, cold tone papers tend to have little
color change but some intensification, warm tone papers will
tone from a purplish sepia to a red-sepia as the original
image goes from slightly warm to quite warm.
The developer makes a difference. Warm tone developers
tend to produce yellower sepia but the amount of bromide is
also very important. Contrary to the popular wisdom that
increased bromide shifts the tone of toned prints toward
yellow, it has the opposite effect. Adding bromide will
shift the color toward a bluer brown. If you get too yellow
a sepia try using a very active developer with a lot of
bomide added. Ira Current, of the old Ansco company,
recommends in a patent the use of 20 to 80 grams per liter
of stock of Potassium bromide for shifting sulfide toned
images toward cold brown. He used a developer similar to
Dektol.
There are a great many toner formulas for Sepia or brown
tones. One can obtain some commercially packaged. The three
types of toner generally available a indirect sulfide
toner, direct sulfide toner, and Selenium toner. Indirect
toner requires preleminary bleaching of the image in a
ferricyanide and bromide bleach. The print is then
redeveloped in a weak solution of Sodium sulifde. Kodak
Sepia Toner II is of this type. Indirect Sepia toners tend
to produce quite yellow tones and are best on cold tone
papers or papers developed with lots of bromide in the
developer. Kodak Brown Toner is a direct toner of the
polysulfide type. It has the advantage of not split toning
(different rates of toning for high and low density parts of
the image) and is well suited for partial toning for image
permanence. KBT must be used at an elevated temperature to
tone in a resonable time. Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner is a
direct toner which can be used over a range of dilutions.
For many years highly diluted KRST was recommended for image
protection. At 1:20 the toner has little effect on image
color or density. However, it was discovered nearly 20 years
ago that this process no longer provides sufficient image
protection. Greater toning in KRST does generate a stable
image but this requires toning to the point where a definite
change in image color and/or density is produced. Selenium
tends to be purplish or reddish on many papers.
There are other types of toners for producing a Sepia
tone but you have to mix your own. At one time Both Kodak
and Agfa made toners which were a combination of a
Polysulfide toner and a Selenium toner. Both products are
now discontinued but one can make a combination toner from
KBT and KRST, I've posted the formula to this group in the
past but will post again if desired. The formula I have
yeilds somewhat redder tones than KBT and is very fast,
toning being complete in about a minute at room temperature.
My suggestion is to experiment with a couple of paper
stocks, one warm, the other neutral, and KBT. Use an active
developer like Dektol and experiment with adding bromide to
see the effect on the toned image color. Ilford Bromophen is
a Phenidone and hydroquinone print developer which probably
contains some Benzotriazole. I don't know what effect these
have on the toner. Bromide can be added to Bromophen. While
it is not as effective as an anti-fog agent as Benzotriazole
for Phenidone the effect here is different. Current, in his
patent, speculates that the bromide changes some of the
silver chloride found in many papers into bromide, which
tones colder.
For more on toning I suggest two books by Dr. Tim Rudman;
_The Photographer's Master Printing Course_ and _The
Photographer's Toning Book_ both are in print, available
from Amazon and other book stores, and neither is expensive.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

In article ,
Paul Mead wrote:

Greg "_" wrote:
I feel your best option is
buying the largest stock you use in the paper type of choice and cutting
down to the sizes you need. That way everything is the same emulsion.

That's a thought... is there a way of making this very efficient of
paper? I can obviously cut A4 sheets in half to get two A5 sheets but
no-one seems to make A4 except for Ilford and then not in WT. I'd like
to avoid having to cut down 11x14 to get 8x10 and then waste the rest!

Find out first the biggest sheet you can handle-space wise. Also what
max size you can obtain, then layout the various sizes on a sheet of
scrap drawing paper......in the dark you"ll want a large Guillotine type
paper cutter versus a rotary blade. Small left over scraps can always be
used for tests or other small prints...throw little away!
--
The sometimes insomniac.

www.gregblankphoto.com