NR: Nikon considering "larger" sensor MILC!

On 2016-09-23 22:26:46 +0000, "J. Clarke" said:

In article 2016092315145459649-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says...

On 2016-09-23 21:50:35 +0000, Sandman said:

In article 2016092210394712991-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote:

On 2016-09-22 17:14:21 +0000, android said:

android:
http://nikonrumors.com/2016/09/22/ni...larger-sensor-
mirrorless-solution-is-being-considered.aspx

Why does this sound like they are trying to board a ship that has
already sailed?

The current N-1 lens line-up is not going to cut it with a larger
sensor, whatever size it might be, and current Nikkor DX lenses are
not optimized for mirrorless use. So if the rumor is valid, and we
get a Nikon APS-C/FF (or a sensor larger than that in the N-1s)
mirrorless, we are going to be looking at a whole new Nikkor
mirrorless lens line-up.

Why not mirrorless with an f-mount? Then we could get a digital Nikon FE, that
would be awesome.

Maybe. However, as a mirrorless with F-mount lenses it will not be
compact in any way, and it will have to be large enough to deal with
the longer flage distance found in DSLRs. That sort of defeats the
purpose of the mirrorless concept. A Nikon mirrorless with an APS-C or
FF sensor is going to require all new glass, even if they make it
F-mount glass. So then we will end up with Nikkor FX, DX, and MX glass.

It is not outside Nikon's capability to produce a great mirrorless, but
they are a tad late to this particular game. They needed to do this two
to three years ago. The N-1 was a fair attempt, but not successful, and
this rumor if it pans out will be interesting to say the least.

If it's an APS-c sensor, any glass that works with APS-C today should
work fine with it leaving aside the issue of communication between body
and lens and assuming a suitable adapter exists. What leads you to
believe that "all new glass" will be "required"?

One of the features of lenses designed for mirrorless systems is the
shorter flange distance. This is something Sony, Olympus, Panasonic,
and Fujifilm have addressed, allowing them to design ILC systems far
more compact than APS-C DSLRs, all without sacrificing IQ. While Nikon
could, in all probability deliver an APS-C/FF mirrorless, it is not
going to compete in the area of size and weight. They need to rethink
the way they are going to address just how they are going to enter this
sector of the mirrorless ILC market. Using existing DX, or FX glass is
not the route to a compact, light weight ILC. They tried with the
Nikon-1, but that was a case of close, but no cigar.
--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article 2016092315594298867-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

If it's an APS-c sensor, any glass that works with APS-C today should
work fine with it leaving aside the issue of communication between body
and lens and assuming a suitable adapter exists. What leads you to
believe that "all new glass" will be "required"?

One of the features of lenses designed for mirrorless systems is the
shorter flange distance. This is something Sony, Olympus, Panasonic,
and Fujifilm have addressed, allowing them to design ILC systems far
more compact than APS-C DSLRs, all without sacrificing IQ. While Nikon
could, in all probability deliver an APS-C/FF mirrorless, it is not
going to compete in the area of size and weight. They need to rethink
the way they are going to address just how they are going to enter this
sector of the mirrorless ILC market. Using existing DX, or FX glass is
not the route to a compact, light weight ILC. They tried with the
Nikon-1, but that was a case of close, but no cigar.

actually, it wasn't that close.

On 23 Sep 2016 21:50:35 GMT, Sandman wrote:

In article 2016092210394712991-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote:

On 2016-09-22 17:14:21 +0000, android said:

android:
http://nikonrumors.com/2016/09/22/ni...larger-sensor-
mirrorless-solution-is-being-considered.aspx

Why

does this sound like they are trying to board a ship that has
already sailed?

The current N-1 lens line-up is not going to cut it with a larger
sensor, whatever size it might be, and current Nikkor DX lenses are
not optimized for mirrorless use. So if the rumor is valid, and we
get a Nikon APS-C/FF (or a sensor larger than that in the N-1s)
mirrorless, we are going to be looking at a whole new Nikkor
mirrorless lens line-up.

Why not mirrorless with an f-mount? Then we could get a digital Nikon FE, that
would be awesome.

Why not bite the bullet and come up with an entirely new mount? After
all, Canon did.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 2016-09-23 23:12:28 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On 23 Sep 2016 21:50:35 GMT, Sandman wrote:
In article 2016092210394712991-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote:
On 2016-09-22 17:14:21 +0000, android said:
android:
http://nikonrumors.com/2016/09/22/ni...larger-sensor-
mirrorless-solution-is-being-considered.aspx

Why does this sound like they are trying to board a ship that has
already sailed?

The current N-1 lens line-up is not going to cut it with a larger
sensor, whatever size it might be, and current Nikkor DX lenses are
not optimized for mirrorless use. So if the rumor is valid, and we
get a Nikon APS-C/FF (or a sensor larger than that in the N-1s)
mirrorless, we are going to be looking at a whole new Nikkor
mirrorless lens line-up.

Why not mirrorless with an f-mount? Then we could get a digital Nikon FE, that
would be awesome.

Why not bite the bullet and come up with an entirely new mount?

That is what they need to do if they are going to produce an MILC which
will compete with the likes of Sony, Olymus, Fujifilm, Panasonic, and
even Canon. ...and they will need to go APS-C or FF. Unfortunately, all
we have now are rumors and wishful thinking.


After all, Canon did.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article 2016092315145459649-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote:

Sandman:
Why not mirrorless with an f-mount? Then we could get a digital
Nikon FE, that would be awesome.

Maybe. However, as a mirrorless with F-mount lenses it will not be
compact in any way, and it will have to be large enough to deal with
the longer flage distance found in DSLRs. That sort of defeats the
purpose of the mirrorless concept.

Well, compact cameras are dead anyway, the smart phones killed them. So I'm not
sure that size is such a compelling factor of mirrorless that it ws five years
ago.

Plus, the Nikon FE is pretty darn small, especially since you could minimise
the left hand side due to lack of film roll, even if you have to make the body
slightly longer due to the LCD screen and the sensor being thicker than film.

But I would have no problem with a digital FE that doesn't have an LCD on the
back, where you can preview photos in the EVF.

A Nikon mirrorless with an APS-C or FF sensor is going to require
all new glass, even if they make it F-mount glass. So then we will
end up with Nikkor FX, DX, and MX glass.

Why, though?

It is not outside Nikon's capability to produce a great mirrorless,
but they are a tad late to this particular game. They needed to do
this two to three years ago. The N-1 was a fair attempt, but not
successful, and this rumor if it pans out will be interesting to say
the least.

Dunno, this sort of suggests that "mirrorless" needs to have some other
parameters as well, as being very small, or using a very small sensor. The Sony
A7 series shows that this isn't needed. Sure, it has a super short flange
distance so a similar Nikon would still be larger, but the A7 isn't a compact
camera really.

--
Sandman

In article , Eric Stevens wrote:

Sandman:
Why not mirrorless with an f-mount? Then we could get a digital
Nikon FE, that would be awesome.

Why not bite the bullet and come up with an entirely new mount?
After all, Canon did.

They did, for the 1 series, right? And since that was small sensor the lenses
were affordable.

But looking at full format Sony A7, tons of people are adapting Nikon and Canon
lenses on it. Imagine a similar Nikon camera that could take any F-mount lens
and is mirrorless. Could be an attractive combination.

--
Sandman

On 23/09/2016 23:23, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , david-
lid says...
[]
I would only consider Nikon again /if/ they produced MTF compatible
cameras and lenses. Agree with your comments. Sony seems to be well
ahead in FF mirrorless.

I'm pretty sure that all Nikon lenses have an MTF. Perhaps you meant
something else?

Typo. MFT = Micro four thirds.

--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

On 2016-09-24 08:02:22 +0000, Sandman said:

In article 2016092315145459649-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote:

Sandman:
Why not mirrorless with an f-mount? Then we could get a digital
Nikon FE, that would be awesome.

Maybe. However, as a mirrorless with F-mount lenses it will not be
compact in any way, and it will have to be large enough to deal with
the longer flage distance found in DSLRs. That sort of defeats the
purpose of the mirrorless concept.

Well, compact cameras are dead anyway, the smart phones killed them. So I'm not
sure that size is such a compelling factor of mirrorless that it ws five years
ago.

When I say compact in this context, I am talking about ILCs with size
and weight smaller and lighter relative to DSLRs, not "compact" in the
P&S class of camera. Those I have to agree are dead and replaced by
smart phones. Remember, as soon as you talk about ILC, you are talking
about cameras with lenses which do not exactly make them "pocketable"
as in the "P&S/compacts" are.

Plus, the Nikon FE is pretty darn small, especially since you could minimise
the left hand side due to lack of film roll, even if you have to make the body
slightly longer due to the LCD screen and the sensor being thicker than film.

But I would have no problem with a digital FE that doesn't have an LCD on the
back, where you can preview photos in the EVF.

Nikon would still be playing catch up in the "nostalgia looks &
operation" area, Fujifilm and Olympus are already there, and selling
all they can produce.

A Nikon mirrorless with an APS-C or FF sensor is going to require
all new glass, even if they make it F-mount glass. So then we will
end up with Nikkor FX, DX, and MX glass.

Why, though?

Making good use of that now missing mirror chamber to produce lenses
optimized for the system rather than falling back on legacy DSLR lenses
regardless of how legendary they might be. It is something Nikon is
capable of doing as they have already demonstrated with the Nikon-1
system, which is currently on life support.

It is not outside Nikon's capability to produce a great mirrorless,
but they are a tad late to this particular game. They needed to do
this two to three years ago. The N-1 was a fair attempt, but not
successful, and this rumor if it pans out will be interesting to say
the least.

Dunno, this sort of suggests that "mirrorless" needs to have some other
parameters as well, as being very small, or using a very small sensor.

Probably, but who said "very small, or using a very small sensor" was
part of what makes a good MILC? More compact & lighter than a DSLR of
similar performance and sensor size does not necessarily equate to
"very small", just relative size.

The Sony
A7 series shows that this isn't needed. Sure, it has a super short flange
distance so a similar Nikon would still be larger, but the A7 isn't a compact
camera really.

Exactly, neither are the Fujifilm X-Pro2 or X-T2.




--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2016-09-24 12:27:14 +0000, "J. Clarke" said:

In article 2016092315594298867-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says...
On 2016-09-23 22:26:46 +0000, "J. Clarke" said:
In article 2016092315145459649-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says...
On 2016-09-23 21:50:35 +0000, Sandman said:
In article 2016092210394712991-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote:
On 2016-09-22 17:14:21 +0000, android said:
android:
http://nikonrumors.com/2016/09/22/ni...larger-sensor-
mirrorless-solution-is-being-considered.aspx

Why does this sound like they are trying to board a ship that has
already sailed?

The current N-1 lens line-up is not going to cut it with a larger
sensor, whatever size it might be, and current Nikkor DX lenses are
not optimized for mirrorless use. So if the rumor is valid, and we
get a Nikon APS-C/FF (or a sensor larger than that in the N-1s)
mirrorless, we are going to be looking at a whole new Nikkor
mirrorless lens line-up.

Why not mirrorless with an f-mount? Then we could get a digital Nikon FE, that
would be awesome.

Maybe. However, as a mirrorless with F-mount lenses it will not be
compact in any way, and it will have to be large enough to deal with
the longer flage distance found in DSLRs. That sort of defeats the
purpose of the mirrorless concept. A Nikon mirrorless with an APS-C or
FF sensor is going to require all new glass, even if they make it
F-mount glass. So then we will end up with Nikkor FX, DX, and MX glass.

It is not outside Nikon's capability to produce a great mirrorless, but
they are a tad late to this particular game. They needed to do this two
to three years ago. The N-1 was a fair attempt, but not successful, and
this rumor if it pans out will be interesting to say the least.

If it's an APS-c sensor, any glass that works with APS-C today should
work fine with it leaving aside the issue of communication between body
and lens and assuming a suitable adapter exists. What leads you to
believe that "all new glass" will be "required"?

One of the features of lenses designed for mirrorless systems is the
shorter flange distance. This is something Sony, Olympus, Panasonic,
and Fujifilm have addressed, allowing them to design ILC systems far
more compact than APS-C DSLRs, all without sacrificing IQ. While Nikon
could, in all probability deliver an APS-C/FF mirrorless, it is not
going to compete in the area of size and weight. They need to rethink
the way they are going to address just how they are going to enter this
sector of the mirrorless ILC market. Using existing DX, or FX glass is
not the route to a compact, light weight ILC. They tried with the
Nikon-1, but that was a case of close, but no cigar.

So how does the shorter flange distance make for a significantly better
400?

For the sake of using long lenses designed for a DSLR system on a MILC,
probably not significantly "better", but long lenses are not all there
is when it comes to the glass one might use.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2016-09-24 14:59:38 +0000, "J. Clarke" said:

In article 201609240744114107-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, savageduck1
@{REMOVESPAM}me.com says...

On 2016-09-24 12:27:14 +0000, "J. Clarke" said:

In article 2016092315594298867-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says...
On 2016-09-23 22:26:46 +0000, "J. Clarke" said:
In article 2016092315145459649-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says...
On 2016-09-23 21:50:35 +0000, Sandman said:
In article 2016092210394712991-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck wrote:
On 2016-09-22 17:14:21 +0000, android said:
android:
http://nikonrumors.com/2016/09/22/ni...larger-sensor-
mirrorless-solution-is-being-considered.aspx

Why does this sound like they are trying to board a ship that has
already sailed?

The current N-1 lens line-up is not going to cut it with a larger
sensor, whatever size it might be, and current Nikkor DX lenses are
not optimized for mirrorless use. So if the rumor is valid, and we
get a Nikon APS-C/FF (or a sensor larger than that in the N-1s)
mirrorless, we are going to be looking at a whole new Nikkor
mirrorless lens line-up.

Why not mirrorless with an f-mount? Then we could get a digital Nikon FE, that
would be awesome.

Maybe. However, as a mirrorless with F-mount lenses it will not be
compact in any way, and it will have to be large enough to deal with
the longer flage distance found in DSLRs. That sort of defeats the
purpose of the mirrorless concept. A Nikon mirrorless with an APS-C or
FF sensor is going to require all new glass, even if they make it
F-mount glass. So then we will end up with Nikkor FX, DX, and MX glass.

It is not outside Nikon's capability to produce a great mirrorless, but
they are a tad late to this particular game. They needed to do this two
to three years ago. The N-1 was a fair attempt, but not successful, and
this rumor if it pans out will be interesting to say the least.

If it's an APS-c sensor, any glass that works with APS-C today should
work fine with it leaving aside the issue of communication between body
and lens and assuming a suitable adapter exists. What leads you to
believe that "all new glass" will be "required"?

One of the features of lenses designed for mirrorless systems is the
shorter flange distance. This is something Sony, Olympus, Panasonic,
and Fujifilm have addressed, allowing them to design ILC systems far
more compact than APS-C DSLRs, all without sacrificing IQ. While Nikon
could, in all probability deliver an APS-C/FF mirrorless, it is not
going to compete in the area of size and weight. They need to rethink
the way they are going to address just how they are going to enter this
sector of the mirrorless ILC market. Using existing DX, or FX glass is
not the route to a compact, light weight ILC. They tried with the
Nikon-1, but that was a case of close, but no cigar.

So how does the shorter flange distance make for a significantly better
400?

For the sake of using long lenses designed for a DSLR system on a MILC,
probably not significantly "better", but long lenses are not all there
is when it comes to the glass one might use.

Your assertion was that ALL glass would NEED to be redesigned. So why
would a 400 NEED to be redesigned?

OK! OK!, not "NEED", but certainly should. Especially when you consider
that mounting a 400mm prime on a MILC is not exactly going to produce a
balanced system. As desirable as having a Nikon MILC with an F-mount
might be, and I have quite a lot of Nikkor glass, it sort of defeats
the idea of the MILC. Unless Nikon is aiming at a market sector that
they desperately want to get into.

Personally, I enjoy having a lightened kit load. With a Domke 803
http://images.tiffen.com/701-83A.png I can carry my X-E2, spare
batteries, and a selection of lenses (14mm, 27mm, 35mm, 18-55mm,
55-200mm), a much lighter load than I would pack with my DSLR, even if
I add the new 100-400mm Fujinon (not a small lens) which is on my wish
list.
--
Regards,

Savageduck