If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#541
|
|||
|
|||
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:20:56 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote: Big Bill wrote: And you want to make it worse. No. Any stress on an economic system will ultimately make it worse. Balance is needed to remove stress. Consumption at current rates is a stress on the economy, mid east tension, the environment, etc. Greedy idiots went out of control in the interest of profits. It is inevitable that the house of cards will collapse and you can be sure that the greedy idiots won't help clean up the mess, be it environmental or economic. It'll be both. They finally just passed a bill to allow drilling in ANWAR, allegedly to promote energy independence. However, suggest to an oil executive that the output can only be used in America and he'll look at you as if you had two heads. If Uncle Mao puts in a higher bid than Uncle Sam, Sam can bend over and spread his cheeks. And the oil fat cats will get fatter. Screw your wilderness as long as China wants what's under it and can back up the want with bucks. In the quotes from the newspapers I provided you can see the heavy hand of special interests trying to get their responsibilty for cleanup removed by their stooges in the US Congress. It is sad that "We the people" elect these representatives, but "We the greenback" tells those reps what to do when they get there... In the US, you are being raped be big money special interests. And you tax dollar is subsidizing their greed. |
#543
|
|||
|
|||
wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:07:49 -0700, Big Bill wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:22:03 GMT, wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:09:51 -0700, Big Bill wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:35:05 -0400, Alan Browne wrote: And you want to make sure they are outlawed? No, just tax them and the fuel they burn until nobody buys them. Ah, so you want to get all Hummers off the roads, including those that are used in businesses? The social and environmental costs are no different just because a business uses the vehicle. Notice that businesses can always afford things which the average consumer could nt justify on the basis of occasional need. So if the business really needs one of the guzzlers, let them pay in accordance with the social costs of their choice. And, of course, you are willing to visit the higher prices on commerce this would require on everyone, not just yourself. Sure, this is workable. In a police state, certainly not in the US. Lessee -- DNA sample taken at time of arrest in CA, not after conviction; audio/video surveillance (2 video; 4 audio) on all San Francisco municipal buses and streetcars; 2 video pickups on BART cars; bureaucrat says the tapes will be kept for 7 years; immediately available to police; 4-way video cameras at any intersection worth noticing; video every half mile or less on freeways. Jeez, I can hardly wait for the real police state to arrive. And just how do you propose to tax the gas for Hummers (and, I will suppose, other vehicles you don't like)? Let's stop the whining, and get down to brass tacks: how do you want to do this? Make a workable proposal, as I did in another post. Mere observation ability doesn't equate to a 'police state'. Only when that ability is used, in a general way, to oppress. Are you being oppressed? I thought not. Potential is not actual. If it were, the fact that you have a butcher knife in your kitchen would imply you intend to murder your family. -- Ron Hunter |
#544
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Ron Hunter wrote: . If it were, the fact that you have a butcher knife in your kitchen would imply you intend to murder your family. Since that is the weapon of choice in a majority of domestic assault cases. |
#545
|
|||
|
|||
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 04:29:23 GMT, wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:07:49 -0700, Big Bill wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:22:03 GMT, wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:09:51 -0700, Big Bill wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:35:05 -0400, Alan Browne wrote: And you want to make sure they are outlawed? No, just tax them and the fuel they burn until nobody buys them. Ah, so you want to get all Hummers off the roads, including those that are used in businesses? The social and environmental costs are no different just because a business uses the vehicle. Notice that businesses can always afford things which the average consumer could nt justify on the basis of occasional need. So if the business really needs one of the guzzlers, let them pay in accordance with the social costs of their choice. And, of course, you are willing to visit the higher prices on commerce this would require on everyone, not just yourself. Sure, this is workable. In a police state, certainly not in the US. Lessee -- DNA sample taken at time of arrest in CA, not after conviction; audio/video surveillance (2 video; 4 audio) on all San Francisco municipal buses and streetcars; 2 video pickups on BART cars; bureaucrat says the tapes will be kept for 7 years; immediately available to police; 4-way video cameras at any intersection worth noticing; video every half mile or less on freeways. Jeez, I can hardly wait for the real police state to arrive. You obviously have no idea of what a police state is. For starters, in a police state, you would have to justify your being on a street at all. If your excuse doesn't seem real to the police, you would be taken in for questioning. A questioning that could well leave you permanantly disfugured or crippled. Then, think about what "disappearing" means. in such a state. -- Bill Funk Change "g" to "a" |
#546
|
|||
|
|||
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:23:27 GMT, Little Green Eyed Dragon
wrote: In article , Ron Hunter wrote: . If it were, the fact that you have a butcher knife in your kitchen would imply you intend to murder your family. Since that is the weapon of choice in a majority of domestic assault cases. Sure. Just like the AR-15 is the weapon of choice for all kinds of bad people, from terrorists to drug dealers to schoolground killers. Not! -- Bill Funk Change "g" to "a" |
#547
|
|||
|
|||
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:07:28 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , Big Bill
in wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 01:55:45 GMT, Matt Silberstein wrote: Nope. SUVs are an easy to state example. I want all car prices to include the societal costs of the cars, I am tired of subsidizing items that put me at risk. If you want to refer to safety as a moral issue, fine. I refer to it that way becasue you do. It's pretty simple, really. If you object to that moral view, that safety is important, then say so. I would think, though, that you would object more to funding an army than to raising taxes on some vehicles. I don't like it when people blow up buildings down the block, I don't like it when my country goes to war, and I want to minimize those things. Taxing cars to include their fair share of those costs seems far better than giving up some of my rights and paying higher taxes to pay for the war. If you would rather have a war than pay higher car and gas taxes then you have a screwed up morality. Then, in that case, I strongly sugest that you start out with local politics, be good at it, and work your way up to the point where you can do something about it. Or, alternatively, work hard to get whichever pol fits your morality, and get him elected, and make yourself useful to him, so he will listen to your input, and be an influence on his actions. Thanks for your advice? Do you do that, or just whine? Have you stopped doing crack? -- Matt Silberstein All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus, there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing. |
#548
|
|||
|
|||
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:07:49 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , Big Bill
in wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:22:03 GMT, wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:09:51 -0700, Big Bill wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:35:05 -0400, Alan Browne wrote: And you want to make sure they are outlawed? No, just tax them and the fuel they burn until nobody buys them. Ah, so you want to get all Hummers off the roads, including those that are used in businesses? The social and environmental costs are no different just because a business uses the vehicle. Notice that businesses can always afford things which the average consumer could nt justify on the basis of occasional need. So if the business really needs one of the guzzlers, let them pay in accordance with the social costs of their choice. And, of course, you are willing to visit the higher prices on commerce this would require on everyone, not just yourself. Sure, this is workable. In a police state, certainly not in the US. Yeah, the U.S. certainly does not have taxes designed to affect social policy. BTW, did you remember to deduct mortgage interest? And just how do you propose to tax the gas for Hummers (and, I will suppose, other vehicles you don't like)? Let's stop the whining, and get down to brass tacks: how do you want to do this? Make a workable proposal, as I did in another post. -- Matt Silberstein All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus, there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing. |
#549
|
|||
|
|||
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:13:12 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , Big Bill
in wrote: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 01:59:25 GMT, Matt Silberstein wrote: Seriously, what are you really trying to say? And if they were considered cars, not trucks, they would be higher priced still and less popular. And if they were considered cars, so would all other light trucks in that weight class. Is that what you want? Because that's what you're saying. Largely yes. What I want in this area in particular is for the government to decide what is a truck or a car and do so consistently if they are going to tax them differently. I don't want the government to tax them differently, but allow the manufacturer to decide which is which and allow them to change the designation along the supply path. If you wish to give subsidies to business because you think that is a good thing then make that argument. -- Matt Silberstein All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus, there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing. |
#550
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:32:42 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , Big Bill
in wrote: On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:45:29 GMT, Matt Silberstein wrote: On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:12:29 -0700, in rec.photo.digital , Big Bill in wrote: On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:46:45 -0500, Ron Hunter wrote: Big Bill wrote: On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:45:22 GMT, Matt Silberstein wrote: I wonder what your idea of "pure free market" is. Usually the normal things, a large number of buyers and sellers, essentially equivalent products, free flow of information regarding the products and previous sales, a market that clears in market time, etc. Also I would include in this case neutral government intervention to distort the price. It is the current government distortion of the price that I keep objecting to. Let me take a particularly egregious example. Car companies have to meet average gas mileage standards, the CAFE standards. The Hummer is so large that it is not included in the average. Think of it, it is such a guzzler that they leave it off the list. This significantly lowers the cost of the vehicle to GM and so to the consumer. You are making a false claim: when you say the Hummer is so large that it is not included on the list, you are suggesting that the list was designed to exclude the Hummer, when you know better. The Hummer fits into a weight category that was excluded because that category overwhelmingly included trucks used in commercial uses. That's not a Government distortion, that's a distortion on your part. What you are asking for is that either *all* vehicles be included in CAFE (think about that; there are very good reasons that didn't happen, and won't happen), or you want the government to make case-by-case decisions on what vehicles will be covered by CAFE. Again, something that you really don't want. Imagine the costs involved. While the size and weight would seem to make the Hummer a 'commercial vehicle', how many have you seen actually USED as such? They are bought by private citizens who have more money than good sense and want to show off. Let them pay. Yes, they are. So lets make more laws, and make them even more restrictive, so we can all see more easily that laws that get more specific are easier to circumvent. We seem to be getting a common thread he some want more laws to try to correct a situation made by a bad set of laws. The common thread I see is your insisting on calling a change an addition. Enlighten me. What change are you talking about? The evolving of light trucks and SUVs into what the customer wants? Having a consistent designation of what is a truck vs. a car rather than allowing the companies to decide on a whim and change their mind. If we are going to subsidize one over the other lets us have a rational basis for doing so. Saying that trucks don't have to meet safety or gas standards because they are used for business and then allowing them to be marketed as cars to non-business users is hypocritical at best. If we can't distinguish between the two, then don't. Have one set of rules, a *simplification* of the current system. We're in the problem (vis-a-vis SUVs and light trucks) becasue of the laws (CAFE). Let's not just say more laws will fix this, becasue they won't. Laws get changed all the time as conditions change. yes they do. And not always for the better. What you propose is not, IMO, for the better. Then explain why, don't present nonsense like objecting because it is "more" laws. Transparently false arguments don't help your position. Explain why it is a good thing for some vehicles to be exempt from some safety standards and not others. Explain why it is good that some vehicles don't have to meet the same gas standards just because the car company says so. New laws to correct this would either be more inclusive (not wanted, because of obvious needs of heavier vehicles), or more specific (trying to control either specific models bad because a new door handle would warrant a new model designation) or by intent of purchaser (and we *never* want to go there)). Why not by the intent? You want to somehow divine the intent of someone? We do it all the time. Plenty of acts are crimes or not based on the intent of the person. (The classic, of course, is the assault with intent to commit great bodily harm.) Please tell me the mechanics of this, as there are literally thousands of courts who would like to know. Courts do it all the time. We determine intent by looking at the actions. A vehicle marketed to the general public is not a business vehicle. The current systems already discriminates based on supposed intent. The current laws allow exemptions for some vehicles, the supposed trucks, because they are supposedly to be used for business. We give them subsidies based on our guess at the intent rather than doing any work to determine intent. If we can't make that determination then don't have the exemption. All cars and trucks have to meet the same standards. We already tax things different based on how they are used. Well, which is it? Intent, or use? I will go along with use as well. Provide documentation on how the item is used and if we want to subsidize business then give a rebate. Again, this is already done in the tax code for various things. Why have a rule that is suppose to judge intent but not actually look at intent? Or toss it out and just tax them all the same? Use and intent are very different. If you wan to use 'use', then require all commercial vehicles to be registered to a comercial entity, and foloow that up with a requirement that they be listed as an asset for property tax use. They can be exempt from extra taxes that could be levied on privately registered vehicles. Is this what you're looking for? What I want is a system where the purchaser actually pays the costs rather than having the society pick up the tab. There are multiple ways we can do this. If we as a society want to subsidize some actions then we should do so explicitly and openly, not with hidden rules. As I have said, I bet that most people who buy an SUV do not know they don't have to meet the same safety standards as a car. I want a system where those who consume petroleum products pay for the increased threats to the U.S. based on that usage. We should have put in a major gas tax (like $1 a gallon or more) 30 years ago, we would be safer today. -- Matt Silberstein All in all, if I could be any animal, I would want to be a duck or a goose. They can fly, walk, and swim. Plus, there there is a certain satisfaction knowing that at the end of your life you will taste good with an orange sauce or, in the case of a goose, a chestnut stuffing. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
NYT article - GPS tagging of digital photos | Alan Browne | Digital Photography | 4 | December 22nd 04 07:36 AM |
I love my Digital Rebel | Neal Matthis | Digital Photography | 2 | November 24th 04 01:17 PM |
Which is better? digital cameras or older crappy cameras thatuse film? | Michael Weinstein, M.D. | In The Darkroom | 13 | January 24th 04 09:51 PM |
Lost Your Digital Pictures? Recover Them - Are you a professional photographer w corrupt digital images, an end user with missing photos? | eProvided.com | Digital Photo Equipment For Sale | 0 | September 5th 03 06:47 PM |
LOVE TO SEE PICS TAKEN WITH FUZI 3800 DIGITAL CAMERA | Matt | Digital Photo Equipment For Sale | 0 | August 28th 03 03:30 AM |