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  #11  
Old August 1st 04, 10:59 PM
Mike B.
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BULL PUCKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



In article , Petros
writes:

Francis A. Miniter posted:
You are not using a 35 mm camera, are you? If you are THE
wedding photographer, 35 mm is not the right forma



  #12  
Old August 1st 04, 10:59 PM
Mike B.
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If he is reacting to the sound of the sutter and THEN is closing his eyes they
you will be ok. figure the time for the sound to travel from the cam, and his
reaction time his eyes will be open.

In article , Petros
writes:

My question has to do with a wedding that I'll be shooting for a friend
of mine next weekend. I did some test shots with the couple today, and
found out that the groom has a reaction to the shutter that makes him
close his eyes when he hears it, even if the flash is turned off. Does
anybody have any advice for what I can do to minimalize his reaction?
I'd hate for all the shots of the "happy couple" to be with his eyes
closed.



  #13  
Old August 1st 04, 10:59 PM
Mike B.
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Posts: n/a
Default Difficult subject

If he is reacting to the sound of the sutter and THEN is closing his eyes they
you will be ok. figure the time for the sound to travel from the cam, and his
reaction time his eyes will be open.

In article , Petros
writes:

My question has to do with a wedding that I'll be shooting for a friend
of mine next weekend. I did some test shots with the couple today, and
found out that the groom has a reaction to the shutter that makes him
close his eyes when he hears it, even if the flash is turned off. Does
anybody have any advice for what I can do to minimalize his reaction?
I'd hate for all the shots of the "happy couple" to be with his eyes
closed.



  #14  
Old August 2nd 04, 01:43 AM
Francis A. Miniter
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Petros wrote:

Well... I'll be using two cameras. One is a duck Sigma SD9



Ouch! Digital. I'm wounded.

and the
other is a duck again 35mm slr.



Favor the 35 mm slr. See if you can rent or borrow a second
body for the day.


The Sigma is mine, the 35mm belongs
to the bride. I'm not doing this for money, but as a favor to the
bride. As for medium format, the costs are too high here in Poland for
such luxuries



Too late for the wedding but you might look into a Russian
Lubitel. A low cost and basic TLR. There is also the
Chinese made Seagull.


I don't do photography professionally, rather as a
hobby, and the bride just happens to like my work. I do thank you for
your advice, since this is one job I'd rather not screw up.

Petros



Francis A. Miniter

  #15  
Old August 2nd 04, 01:43 AM
Francis A. Miniter
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Posts: n/a
Default Difficult subject

Petros wrote:

Well... I'll be using two cameras. One is a duck Sigma SD9



Ouch! Digital. I'm wounded.

and the
other is a duck again 35mm slr.



Favor the 35 mm slr. See if you can rent or borrow a second
body for the day.


The Sigma is mine, the 35mm belongs
to the bride. I'm not doing this for money, but as a favor to the
bride. As for medium format, the costs are too high here in Poland for
such luxuries



Too late for the wedding but you might look into a Russian
Lubitel. A low cost and basic TLR. There is also the
Chinese made Seagull.


I don't do photography professionally, rather as a
hobby, and the bride just happens to like my work. I do thank you for
your advice, since this is one job I'd rather not screw up.

Petros



Francis A. Miniter

  #16  
Old August 2nd 04, 08:46 AM
zeitgeist
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Posts: n/a
Default Difficult subject


This is my first time here, and I'm printing out articles like crazy,
because there is a lot of helpful advice to be had. Thanks!

My question has to do with a wedding that I'll be shooting for a friend
of mine next weekend. I did some test shots with the couple today, and
found out that the groom has a reaction to the shutter that makes him
close his eyes when he hears it, even if the flash is turned off. Does
anybody have any advice for what I can do to minimalize his reaction?
I'd hate for all the shots of the "happy couple" to be with his eyes
closed.




Not likely to be from the sound of the shutter, probably he sees your finger
tense on the shutter.

One remedy would be to use a long cable release and hold your hand behind
your back. A lot of pros use a flash bracket with a handle on the side and
a pistol grip with a shutter release, with all the cables and stuff on the
bracket handle, as well as the tilt of it, you can hide or obscure the
trigger finger's flex.

How often does he do this? half or more of the exposures?

I've run across this problem several times, usually with (possibly) abused
kids and some women (again possibly abused as kids) Never a guy. Frankly
it sounds like latent assholism. You know, a weasel control freak.

Use a tripod, you can stand and look at the couple's eyes when you shoot and
see the reflection of the flash in their eyes, the catch lights. You can
see if this guy is a jerk or just has a psychological problem.

If its the former you can bash the guy upside the head with the tripod and
then tell the bride (I'll bet she's the one you're friends with) not to
marry this creep, she won't listen, they still won't be a happy couple but
at least you won't spend the rest of your life knowing you saw your friend
walk in front of a moving train without saying anything.

If its the latter, then work with the guy, wait for a blink and then shoot,
blinks are fast if you see one and shoot your finger will be slower than the
blink, though some people do have a double blink (I think they are the
aliens among us but that's another post.) If that doesn't work then tell
the guy what the problem is and ask his help. Just look at me and don't
blink, hey, that worked.

Oh, direct flash can be painful for some people, use a tripod and bounce
your flash off a side wall, use as wide a lens opening as you can, cause
bounces wastes a lot of the light.

to salvage what you can, have the guy look at her, shoot a close up, say her
looking at her ring, he's looking right at her, nose bumping her cheek or
ear, even if the guy is trying to be a jerk, he will still look romantic or
at least his wife will think so. (that works with crosseyed subjects too.)
There is an example of this posted in the photos section of the z-prophoto
mailing list at yahoogroups.com

Also, since you are shooting some digital, you could find the one shot with
his eyes open and head swap with the other groups. again another reason to
shoot with a tripod, you can cut and paste from one image to the next
without doing much if any work to line up with the background. When I shoot
I usually set the bride up, fluff her dress and leave her there, the groom
gets posed next to her, and for most of the shots he can stay in that one
spot too, bring in the parents, add the brothers and sisters, grandparents,
the wedding party, his folks, now the office workers, old friends. blink
blink blink, swap swap swap. with most photo editing programs you can
draw a circle around the head, feather the selection, cut and drag it righ
on to the closed eye shot. He'll have the same dopey expression in 9 of ten
shots but you will have beaten him at his game, or helped him with his
embarrassing medical or mental problem. If you hand hold you can find a
lot of changes between shots that make it difficult to cut and paste from
one to the other. so find one spot, one pose, don't zoom, if you have to
crop then do so, or just leave some space, you can have one zoom or camera
position for couples and another for the groups. then you'll need two shots
without blinks.

if he also kills shots by hidding smiles, either by turning his head (oh no
wait) or quickly deciding his hair is out of place and running his hands up
in front of his face, or frequently looking at the floor or anywhere than
where a normal person then you know you have a guy with a serious
personality disorder. If you think you have this problem already from the
test shots then walk away. Tell the bride you can't, heck, buy the bride a
wedding gift and hire someone to shoot the formals. (any photogs you don't
really like?)


  #17  
Old August 2nd 04, 08:46 AM
zeitgeist
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Difficult subject


This is my first time here, and I'm printing out articles like crazy,
because there is a lot of helpful advice to be had. Thanks!

My question has to do with a wedding that I'll be shooting for a friend
of mine next weekend. I did some test shots with the couple today, and
found out that the groom has a reaction to the shutter that makes him
close his eyes when he hears it, even if the flash is turned off. Does
anybody have any advice for what I can do to minimalize his reaction?
I'd hate for all the shots of the "happy couple" to be with his eyes
closed.




Not likely to be from the sound of the shutter, probably he sees your finger
tense on the shutter.

One remedy would be to use a long cable release and hold your hand behind
your back. A lot of pros use a flash bracket with a handle on the side and
a pistol grip with a shutter release, with all the cables and stuff on the
bracket handle, as well as the tilt of it, you can hide or obscure the
trigger finger's flex.

How often does he do this? half or more of the exposures?

I've run across this problem several times, usually with (possibly) abused
kids and some women (again possibly abused as kids) Never a guy. Frankly
it sounds like latent assholism. You know, a weasel control freak.

Use a tripod, you can stand and look at the couple's eyes when you shoot and
see the reflection of the flash in their eyes, the catch lights. You can
see if this guy is a jerk or just has a psychological problem.

If its the former you can bash the guy upside the head with the tripod and
then tell the bride (I'll bet she's the one you're friends with) not to
marry this creep, she won't listen, they still won't be a happy couple but
at least you won't spend the rest of your life knowing you saw your friend
walk in front of a moving train without saying anything.

If its the latter, then work with the guy, wait for a blink and then shoot,
blinks are fast if you see one and shoot your finger will be slower than the
blink, though some people do have a double blink (I think they are the
aliens among us but that's another post.) If that doesn't work then tell
the guy what the problem is and ask his help. Just look at me and don't
blink, hey, that worked.

Oh, direct flash can be painful for some people, use a tripod and bounce
your flash off a side wall, use as wide a lens opening as you can, cause
bounces wastes a lot of the light.

to salvage what you can, have the guy look at her, shoot a close up, say her
looking at her ring, he's looking right at her, nose bumping her cheek or
ear, even if the guy is trying to be a jerk, he will still look romantic or
at least his wife will think so. (that works with crosseyed subjects too.)
There is an example of this posted in the photos section of the z-prophoto
mailing list at yahoogroups.com

Also, since you are shooting some digital, you could find the one shot with
his eyes open and head swap with the other groups. again another reason to
shoot with a tripod, you can cut and paste from one image to the next
without doing much if any work to line up with the background. When I shoot
I usually set the bride up, fluff her dress and leave her there, the groom
gets posed next to her, and for most of the shots he can stay in that one
spot too, bring in the parents, add the brothers and sisters, grandparents,
the wedding party, his folks, now the office workers, old friends. blink
blink blink, swap swap swap. with most photo editing programs you can
draw a circle around the head, feather the selection, cut and drag it righ
on to the closed eye shot. He'll have the same dopey expression in 9 of ten
shots but you will have beaten him at his game, or helped him with his
embarrassing medical or mental problem. If you hand hold you can find a
lot of changes between shots that make it difficult to cut and paste from
one to the other. so find one spot, one pose, don't zoom, if you have to
crop then do so, or just leave some space, you can have one zoom or camera
position for couples and another for the groups. then you'll need two shots
without blinks.

if he also kills shots by hidding smiles, either by turning his head (oh no
wait) or quickly deciding his hair is out of place and running his hands up
in front of his face, or frequently looking at the floor or anywhere than
where a normal person then you know you have a guy with a serious
personality disorder. If you think you have this problem already from the
test shots then walk away. Tell the bride you can't, heck, buy the bride a
wedding gift and hire someone to shoot the formals. (any photogs you don't
really like?)


  #18  
Old August 2nd 04, 02:46 PM
Lloyd
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Posts: n/a
Default Difficult subject

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:55:21 +0200, Petros
wrote:

Hi all!

This is my first time here, and I'm printing out articles like crazy,
because there is a lot of helpful advice to be had. Thanks!

My question has to do with a wedding that I'll be shooting for a friend
of mine next weekend. I did some test shots with the couple today, and
found out that the groom has a reaction to the shutter that makes him
close his eyes when he hears it, even if the flash is turned off. Does
anybody have any advice for what I can do to minimalize his reaction?
I'd hate for all the shots of the "happy couple" to be with his eyes
closed.

Thanks.



aug204 from Lloyd Erlick,

Concentrate on him for a short while, getting in close and
tripping the shutter many times. Best of all would be to do
this during a practice run. Perhaps do it at the very
beginning of the session. And of course do not use the
flash. His blink response will probably decondition quite
rapidly. (It's a first-year-psychology conditioned response
to the shutter sound. He's lucky not to have been one of
Pavlov's dogs, because the surgery they had was not very
nice.)

As others have suggested, work with a quiet camera. The
conditioned response occurs in response to the conditioning
stimulus, in this case the sound of the camera. So if you
get him used to the fact that the sound does not imply a
flash in his eyes, plus if you use a quiet camera or make
sure environmental noise and/or distance cover the noise for
him, both his conditioning and the strength of the undesired
stimulus will be reduced.

I sometimes find that little kids squint and respond to the
expectation of flash as soon as they see a camera -- or me.
No sound stimulus required. Here's something that helps a
lot, even with adults (definitely try it out on your
groom...) -- after a few frames and plenty of friendly
banter, invite a few folks to look through your camera. The
kids especially love this, but adults respond, too. While
they look at their family through the viewfinder (set it up
carefully first), declaim to one and all about how beautiful
things look through a camera viewfinder, and how much you
love to look at the view it provides. **Let the kids trip
the shutter once or twice each.** (Cable or electric remote
release is essential for many reasons.) After this
treatment, no child will squint at you! (Of course, the
flash must be shut off for this to work...).

I've long since abandoned flash altogether. To have anything
but outright ugly light from flash, one's skill level must
be very high. Examine the work of Shelby Lee Adams for an
education in proper use of flash. Even before I saw his
work, I knew my skill with flash was not high enough. But
for me the pain on peoples' faces as soon as they see me is
more than enough to convince me to never burden my body with
a flash unit again. If other photogs have conditioned your
subjects to squint, you can probably decondition them with
some effort. But if you are planning to use flash, they will
only be mentally sitting in the dentist's chair, outwardly
calm, inwardly awaiting the drill. I like to explain I never
use flash, so I need their cooperation by sitting calmly and
being relaxed -- looking like themselves. Then I joke about
my collection of antique dentist's drills...

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email:
net:
www.heylloyd.com
________________________________
  #19  
Old August 2nd 04, 02:46 PM
Lloyd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Difficult subject

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:55:21 +0200, Petros
wrote:

Hi all!

This is my first time here, and I'm printing out articles like crazy,
because there is a lot of helpful advice to be had. Thanks!

My question has to do with a wedding that I'll be shooting for a friend
of mine next weekend. I did some test shots with the couple today, and
found out that the groom has a reaction to the shutter that makes him
close his eyes when he hears it, even if the flash is turned off. Does
anybody have any advice for what I can do to minimalize his reaction?
I'd hate for all the shots of the "happy couple" to be with his eyes
closed.

Thanks.



aug204 from Lloyd Erlick,

Concentrate on him for a short while, getting in close and
tripping the shutter many times. Best of all would be to do
this during a practice run. Perhaps do it at the very
beginning of the session. And of course do not use the
flash. His blink response will probably decondition quite
rapidly. (It's a first-year-psychology conditioned response
to the shutter sound. He's lucky not to have been one of
Pavlov's dogs, because the surgery they had was not very
nice.)

As others have suggested, work with a quiet camera. The
conditioned response occurs in response to the conditioning
stimulus, in this case the sound of the camera. So if you
get him used to the fact that the sound does not imply a
flash in his eyes, plus if you use a quiet camera or make
sure environmental noise and/or distance cover the noise for
him, both his conditioning and the strength of the undesired
stimulus will be reduced.

I sometimes find that little kids squint and respond to the
expectation of flash as soon as they see a camera -- or me.
No sound stimulus required. Here's something that helps a
lot, even with adults (definitely try it out on your
groom...) -- after a few frames and plenty of friendly
banter, invite a few folks to look through your camera. The
kids especially love this, but adults respond, too. While
they look at their family through the viewfinder (set it up
carefully first), declaim to one and all about how beautiful
things look through a camera viewfinder, and how much you
love to look at the view it provides. **Let the kids trip
the shutter once or twice each.** (Cable or electric remote
release is essential for many reasons.) After this
treatment, no child will squint at you! (Of course, the
flash must be shut off for this to work...).

I've long since abandoned flash altogether. To have anything
but outright ugly light from flash, one's skill level must
be very high. Examine the work of Shelby Lee Adams for an
education in proper use of flash. Even before I saw his
work, I knew my skill with flash was not high enough. But
for me the pain on peoples' faces as soon as they see me is
more than enough to convince me to never burden my body with
a flash unit again. If other photogs have conditioned your
subjects to squint, you can probably decondition them with
some effort. But if you are planning to use flash, they will
only be mentally sitting in the dentist's chair, outwardly
calm, inwardly awaiting the drill. I like to explain I never
use flash, so I need their cooperation by sitting calmly and
being relaxed -- looking like themselves. Then I joke about
my collection of antique dentist's drills...

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email:
net:
www.heylloyd.com
________________________________
  #20  
Old August 2nd 04, 02:59 PM
Petros
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Posts: n/a
Default Difficult subject

Francis A. Miniter posted:
Petros wrote:

Well... I'll be using two cameras. One is a duck Sigma SD9



Ouch! Digital. I'm wounded.


Don't take it personally, I also used to paint with oils and
watercolor, and built most of my furniture out of hardwood, but I live
in a different reality now

and the
other is a duck again 35mm slr.



Favor the 35 mm slr. See if you can rent or borrow a second
body for the day.


The Sigma is mine, the 35mm belongs
to the bride. I'm not doing this for money, but as a favor to the
bride. As for medium format, the costs are too high here in Poland for
such luxuries



Too late for the wedding but you might look into a Russian
Lubitel. A low cost and basic TLR. There is also the
Chinese made Seagull.


I actually have an old rolliflex, which just needs some cleaning, but
it's the film that costs too much here. 108 frames for $6 (bride's
choice) vs. 12 frames for $10, plus waiting two weeks to get it
developed...

For most of the graphic work that I do, the digital is the best option,
as it saves me many hours of scanning and transfer and money spent on
developing film and driving back and forth to the photo store. No
turning back now!


--
Petros
Ap' ola prin ipirche o Logos
 




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