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#21
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No one speaks english anymore??
On 3/16/2013 11:17 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2013-03-16 20:03:03 -0700, PeterN said: On 3/15/2013 11:19 PM, Savageduck wrote: On 2013-03-15 20:07:31 -0700, MaxD said: On 3/15/2013 3:14 AM, Savageduck wrote: On 2013-03-15 01:00:51 -0700, Rob said: The French don't want to speak to Canadian French speaking people. Must have been the war the French lost and still show hostilities. Most of the "Arcadians" ended up in Louisiana, and nobody understands them. excusez-moi!! Max You have mois which need excusing? OK! I guess I should have spelt it correctly, "Acadians". Careful you don't OD on andouille, I understand the DEA is considering labeling it a controlled substance. I hear there is a move to ban poutine. I don't believe poutine made it into Cajun cuisine, or even much beyond a minor intrusion, just below the North-Eastern Canadian-US border. ...unless there is a little known "poutine underground" which Homeland Security has yet to unearth. The grounds for a proposed ban on poutine are the polar opposites of any ban on Debouillie. -- PeterN |
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No one speaks english anymore??
On 17/03/2013 1:53 PM, PeterN wrote:
On 3/15/2013 3:35 PM, Robert Coe wrote: On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:02:40 +1100, Rob wrote: : Sitting in a restaurant in Switzerland a group of Japanese were in to : dine. The waiter spoke German (Swiss dialect) so in this situation they : were communicating in broken English, funniest thing I've seen for a : long time of course I knew what they were saying and understood the : conversation but I don't think either understood each other. Once at a hotel restaurant in Trondheim, Norway, the waitress addressed me in English, but I decided to try out my 3-day-old Norwegian. She immediately concluded that I didn't speak either language and smoothly switched to German. I know enough German to grasp what she was saying, but I knew when I was licked and reverted to English. The waitress didn't tell me I was crazy, but I'm sure that's what she thought. After spending a week in Spain, I worked up the nerve to try my pigeon Spanish by asking for directions: The young lady I asked replied, with a distinctly British accent, "I'm sorry sir, I don't understand Spanish." Speaking Swiss/German this chap came up and asked "where's the railway station", which I understood, my reply in English "down there" I don't know what his thoughts were. |
#23
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No one speaks english anymore??
Rob wrote:
Speaking Swiss/German this chap came up and asked "where's the railway station", which I understood, my reply in English "down there" I don't know what his thoughts were. He only understood "railway station". (Translate that!) -Wolfgang |
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No one speaks english anymore??
On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:46:42 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:
But enough people say that they find southern accents incomprehensible that I have to believe them. Bob I've lived all over the U.S., and I think it's a bit of snobbery personally. |
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No one speaks english anymore??
rwalker wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:46:42 -0400, Robert Coe wrote: But enough people say that they find southern accents incomprehensible that I have to believe them. Bob I've lived all over the U.S., and I think it's a bit of snobbery personally. Well, it may or may not be in any given instance, but you can rest assured that it is in many case merely an expression of a fact. Probably any linguist could provide more specific details, but I am personally aware of how accents and dialects affect English, Spanish, and two Eskimo languages. Which is to say that it is not unique to the accents of Southerners in the US, but is a universal trait for all peoples around the globe. One personal example is really very interesting in understanding it too. I was born in Western Washington, and did not hear anyone with a different accent until I was about 10 years old. At that time I encountered a school teacher from New York City, and an engineer from New Jersey. They said lots of strange things in strange ways, and I could understand them but with lots of giggles. The guy from NYC didn't know corn had to be planted every year... and the guy from New Jersey mentioned a "donkey" one day and had a room full of people rolling on the floor laughing! He said "d-unkey" rather than "d-onkey". (Look it up in a dictionary... both are correct!) And then... In about 1956 they had race riots in the south, and it was on TV. I could not understand a word they said! While an accent from the North East was strange, an accent from the South was impossible. And then... Time moved on, and my family moved to Tucson Arizona. A few years later I attended the University of Arizona, and took a chemistry class with a lab, and my assigned lab partner was from Brooklyn NY. I couldn't understand a word he said! After living in Arizona a Southern accent (neighbors from Arkansas) sounded slightly odd, but understandable. And someone from the North East was impossible to understand. Yet I had never really noticed and difference between the accents of Washington and Arizona. That is, in about 5 years of exposure to the language as spoken in Arizona as opposed to how it is spoken in Washington, my ability to understand accents completely flip flopped. Washington is more similar to the North East, Arizona is more similar to the South. Today of course television has changed America in many ways, and regional accents that thick are less common. We tend to hear each of them often enough to recognize the words with relative easy. But, I have a friend who was born in England. She perhaps does not speak the Queen's English, but she certainly can sound English. Another friend and I delight in telling others about some of her classic forms of speach impediment: like saying "sqiwerls" when she means a squirrel. The first time we heard her say that it was 5 minutes before either of us could talk... Whatever, regional accents and dialectic differences in how language is spoken and used are very real and are not in any way a class distinction. -- Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/ Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) |
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No one speaks english anymore??
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#27
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No one speaks english anymore??
| Time moved on, and my family moved to Tucson Arizona. A | few years later I attended the University of Arizona, | and took a chemistry class with a lab, and my assigned | lab partner was from Brooklyn NY. I couldn't understand | a word he said! I once lived in Tucson, but I don't remember any Arizona accent. Most of the older people I knew were from NY. The younger people were mainly midwest immigrants. The U of A students seemed to be mainly from California. I only had one acquaintance who was a Tucson native and she had no discernible accent. | Whatever, regional accents and dialectic differences in | how language is spoken and used are very real and are | not in any way a class distinction. | In my experience they're nothing but. Anyone who goes to colllege these days comes out with an Ohio-style, neutral accent. It's become the mark of culture. *Any* local accent indicates a person who is not versed in the standards of the PC multiculturalism that's disseminated through mainstream media and required for white-collar employment. But of course the educated classes no longer make fun of yokels. So long as they don't live nearby such people are appreciated as living examples of rich, "authentic" ethnicity and interviewed for PBS documentaries. |
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No one speaks english anymore??
rwalker wrote:
On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 18:51:46 -0800, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote: Whatever, regional accents and dialectic differences in how language is spoken and used are very real and are not in any way a class distinction. Well, that's one take on it. But it is also an easily verifable take (which any linguist will expond on), while saying that such distinctions are merely snobbery, probably is itself an expression of snobbery. -- Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/ Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) |
#29
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No one speaks english anymore??
"Mayayana" wrote:
| Time moved on, and my family moved to Tucson Arizona. A | few years later I attended the University of Arizona, | and took a chemistry class with a lab, and my assigned | lab partner was from Brooklyn NY. I couldn't understand | a word he said! I once lived in Tucson, but I don't remember any Arizona accent. Most of the older people I knew were from NY. The younger people were mainly midwest immigrants. The U of A students seemed to be mainly from California. I only had one acquaintance who was a Tucson native and she had no discernible accent. You do understand what "no discernible accent" means, right? I met a young woman here in Barrow few years ago that I noticed had "no discernable accent". Now, that was as opposed to her mother, who was born in Asia and had a very distinct accent! So I mentioned to this lady one day that she didn't have an accent; she misunderstood me and thought I was referencing her lack of a foreign accent. She pointed out that she had been born in the America and was a genuine American. So I said, no no no, I mean, you ain't got no accent girl! You sound like the kids who grew up next door to me. And I asked her where she grew up at. Literally twenty miles away from where I grew up! She indeed had no accent... to me. (The two people I was with had a field day telling us that we both had a very distinct accent...) Note that the differences in accents all up and down the western US is only slight. It is very hard to point out difference between speach in Washington and Arizona (ask them to pronounce "Washington State" and to tell you what they do when they they wash their hands, and you'll hear the difference). Arizona (at least in the 1960's) was influenced greatly by southerners and people who spoke Spanish. Washington was more influenced by New England. | Whatever, regional accents and dialectic differences in | how language is spoken and used are very real and are | not in any way a class distinction. Perhaps I should have put more emphasis on the fact that I was taking about *regional* accents. There can of course also be differences between classes, but that isn't a regional accent either. In my experience they're nothing but. Anyone who goes to colllege these days comes out with an Ohio-style, neutral accent. It's become the mark of culture. It actually has very little to do with a college education, and has a great deal to do with the ubiquity of television exposure to young children. *Any* local accent indicates a person who is not versed in the standards of the PC multiculturalism that's disseminated through mainstream media and required for white-collar employment. Not really. It would indicate someone who had been isolated from that as a child. Radio, Televison and the movies are all a great influence, but the penetration of TV into virtually all homes by approximately 1960 is by far the most signficant cause. But of course the educated classes no longer make fun of yokels. What planet do you reference this to???? eh??? :-) So long as they don't live nearby such people are appreciated as living examples of rich, "authentic" ethnicity and interviewed for PBS documentaries. I hope you realize that concept is one that comes into a great deal of conversation which could be likened to this business of "make fun of yokels"! I was explaining precisely that this afternoon to a visitor here in Barrow who has a moderate interest in anthropology and wanted to learn about the effects of a small population that is extremely diverse and very multilingual. Just that here the tables are turned in terms of just who or what defines a "yokel". Typically for example anyone schooled in anthropology more than 40 years ago is almost certainly a yokel unless they can show otherwise. The more famous the school they attened, the harder the proof will be. -- Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/ Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) |
#30
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No one speaks english anymore??
Tony Cooper wrote:
On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 23:55:31 -0400, "Mayayana" wrote: | Time moved on, and my family moved to Tucson Arizona. A | few years later I attended the University of Arizona, | and took a chemistry class with a lab, and my assigned | lab partner was from Brooklyn NY. I couldn't understand | a word he said! I once lived in Tucson, but I don't remember any Arizona accent. Most of the older people I knew were from NY. The younger people were mainly midwest immigrants. The U of A students seemed to be mainly from California. I only had one acquaintance who was a Tucson native and she had no discernible accent. Floyd made no claims about an Arizona accent. He happened to be in Arizona, and was in conversations with a Brooklynite. It was the Brooklynite who had the accent. The Arizona reference was simply where he happened to be when he came across the Brooklyn accent. The point was that I had in fact been in Arizona long enough, and at an age, where by that time I most distinctly spoke more with an Arizona accent as opposed to a Washington accent. The Brooklyn, Bronx, New York accent being such that not a word could be understood is, of course, hyperbole. Not so. I literally could not understand enough to carry on even a simple conversation. The one I remember was the first thing he said, which it turned out was something to the effect that we needed some "water". I was embarrassed to ask him to repeat it... six times! What I did was look at what he was reading in the book, realized what he would want to do, and from that determined what he was saying. I could not understand enough of what he said to even get the context to pick out words I didn't recognize. Certainly, some people from that area have pronounced accents and use some terms that are not idiomatic to Washingtonians (where Floyd was from) or to Arizonians (where Floyd was at the time), but they are for the most part understandable. The biggest difference, to my ear, is that they sound more aggressive in normal conversation than I'm used to as a native Midwesterner. The key words are "to my ear". Everyone has a different ear, and the accent you are most used to listening to is "no accent at all". To your ear... But certainly to someone somewhere it is probably the thickest accent they've ever heard! | Whatever, regional accents and dialectic differences in | how language is spoken and used are very real and are | not in any way a class distinction. | In my experience they're nothing but. Anyone who goes to colllege these days comes out with an Ohio-style, neutral accent. That's as much hyperbolic as Floyd's comment. Some coming out of the better eastern universities cultivate what would be called in the UK "RP", or "Received Pronunciation" that is associated with the upper-class. Some coming out of SEC universities strive to maintain their southern accents as a mark of their own special culture and charm. There are some, of course, who do work at acquiring a more neutral accent, but it's not as prevalent as you indicate. And, some who should. What is defined as a "more neutral accent" depends entirely on where one is located. In the US it was long thought that Nebraska was just about the perfect place to learn English if a job in the TV or Radio industry was the point. Bill Moyers was one of, and probably the first, with a Texas accent to make it big. And that may of course have partially been the result of people listening to Lyndon Johnson as the President of the United States. Incidentally, in high school and in college I worked in the broadcasting industry in Tucson, including working for the two Spanish language radio stations that existed at the time. Trust that the Spanish accents from south of our border are just as varied as the English is north of the border. A typical announcer in Mexico at the time had to come from the northern central part of Mexico. Border town Spanish was not acceptable, nor was their equivalent of our "Southerner" from the Yukatan. -- Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/ Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) |
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