For those who think MS/UC is reforming

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:23:10 +0200, "Jim Phelps"
wrote:

Robert,

I think you may be somewhat correct on the anticipated outcome of
ignoring the scar'd one. Some time ago, in one of his early rants and raves
through the rec.photo newsgroups, he was quickly and rather unabashedly
ignored and told to sit in the corner and color. Shortly after this, people
were becoming victimized, terrorized, stalked and threatened by 'anonymous'
sources. I believe it was the doing of ole scarface himself.

I have posted my reasons for believing it was he in the past. No need to
rehash again here. I've only recently seen Henry Posner begin to venture
into these waters once again (thank you Henry). Strange since this recent
round of ignoring him I've seen in an increase in spoofed SI submission in
the 35mm group. Things that make you go Hmmm!

I believe the only way we can get rid of him for now (I believe his sick
mind and antisocial behavior will constantly force him back) is complete and
utter ignorance of him and his posts. All of it. It was amazing to see a
post of his go completely unanswered. It quite likely ticked him off to no
end. Possibly the resulting tantrum was what you posted to start this
thread. We need to ignore him. All of us. Make like he don't exist.

Well, he posted another in the same vein, over there, to the same
original poster. Something set him off.

If he comes back under a new handle, we'll be able to figure it out in
short order. It'll be the same old message.

Right, Uranium Herd was a quick reveal.

Jim


Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Robert Vervoordt wrote:
: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:23:10 +0200, "Jim Phelps"
: wrote:

: Robert,
:
: I think you may be somewhat correct on the anticipated outcome of
: ignoring the scar'd one. Some time ago, in one of his early rants and raves
: through the rec.photo newsgroups, he was quickly and rather unabashedly
: ignored and told to sit in the corner and color. Shortly after this, people
: were becoming victimized, terrorized, stalked and threatened by 'anonymous'
: sources. I believe it was the doing of ole scarface himself.
:
: I have posted my reasons for believing it was he in the past. No need to
: rehash again here. I've only recently seen Henry Posner begin to venture
: into these waters once again (thank you Henry). Strange since this recent
: round of ignoring him I've seen in an increase in spoofed SI submission in
: the 35mm group. Things that make you go Hmmm!
:
: I believe the only way we can get rid of him for now (I believe his sick
: mind and antisocial behavior will constantly force him back) is complete and
: utter ignorance of him and his posts. All of it. It was amazing to see a
: post of his go completely unanswered. It quite likely ticked him off to no
: end. Possibly the resulting tantrum was what you posted to start this
: thread. We need to ignore him. All of us. Make like he don't exist.

: Well, he posted another in the same vein, over there, to the same
: original poster. Something set him off.

I think it's desperation. He's desperate for attention and will lash out to try
and get it. Expect to see him get even more obnoxious in the next few weeks.
--




Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------

Robert Vervoordt wrote:
: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:23:10 +0200, "Jim Phelps"
: wrote:

: Robert,
:
: I think you may be somewhat correct on the anticipated outcome of
: ignoring the scar'd one. Some time ago, in one of his early rants and raves
: through the rec.photo newsgroups, he was quickly and rather unabashedly
: ignored and told to sit in the corner and color. Shortly after this, people
: were becoming victimized, terrorized, stalked and threatened by 'anonymous'
: sources. I believe it was the doing of ole scarface himself.
:
: I have posted my reasons for believing it was he in the past. No need to
: rehash again here. I've only recently seen Henry Posner begin to venture
: into these waters once again (thank you Henry). Strange since this recent
: round of ignoring him I've seen in an increase in spoofed SI submission in
: the 35mm group. Things that make you go Hmmm!
:
: I believe the only way we can get rid of him for now (I believe his sick
: mind and antisocial behavior will constantly force him back) is complete and
: utter ignorance of him and his posts. All of it. It was amazing to see a
: post of his go completely unanswered. It quite likely ticked him off to no
: end. Possibly the resulting tantrum was what you posted to start this
: thread. We need to ignore him. All of us. Make like he don't exist.

: Well, he posted another in the same vein, over there, to the same
: original poster. Something set him off.

I think it's desperation. He's desperate for attention and will lash out to try
and get it. Expect to see him get even more obnoxious in the next few weeks.
--




Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------

"Jim Phelps" wrote in message ...
Robert,




I think you may be somewhat correct on the anticipated outcome of
ignoring the scar'd one. Some time ago, in one of his early rants and raves
through the rec.photo newsgroups, he was quickly and rather unabashedly
ignored and told to sit in the corner and color. Shortly after this, people
were becoming victimized, terrorized, stalked and threatened by 'anonymous'
sources. I believe it was the doing of ole scarface himself.

I have posted my reasons for believing it was he in the past. No need to
rehash again here. I've only recently seen Henry Posner begin to venture
into these waters once again (thank you Henry). Strange since this recent
round of ignoring him I've seen in an increase in spoofed SI submission in
the 35mm group. Things that make you go Hmmm!

I believe the only way we can get rid of him for now (I believe his sick
mind and antisocial behavior will constantly force him back) is complete and
utter ignorance of him and his posts. All of it. It was amazing to see a
post of his go completely unanswered. It quite likely ticked him off to no
end. Possibly the resulting tantrum was what you posted to start this
thread. We need to ignore him. All of us. Make like he don't exist.

If he comes back under a new handle, we'll be able to figure it out in
short order. It'll be the same old message.

Jim

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:48:36 -0000, (Travis
Porco) wrote:

In article ,
Robert Vervoordt wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:26:36 -0500, Peter De Smidt
pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote:

...

I saw the pictures of his, MS's that he has on an Ilford site. I had
to laugh, as he put up a load of Zone system subject matter; you know,
weathered bulding parts, "broken windows and empty hallways", All it
was lacking was a "pale dead moon in a sky full of Gray".

"Zone system subject matter"?

Not sure I get it. Do you mean things for which the ZS would be considered
appropriate?

Yes.

Do you mean "trite, hackneyed" imitation of Minor White and
Ansel Adams?

Yes.

He's completely oblivious of the sensibilities he shares withothers.
He seems to think he's so unique, that he can just rely, unthinkingly
on his "feelings" when he shoots and that his results will be just
fine. All of us have a commonality of experince, conditioning and
basic perceptual faculties. When we find ourselves admiring someone
else's work, those factors are all engaged. So, too with him; hejust
will never admit it.

The subject matter reflects this. His reliance on a shouldering film
and some form of compensation in development as well as somewhat
generous exposure outs him into the realm of Zone practice. The fact
that he does this in 35mm and not LF is why he contends that he is
different, The use of 35mm does require some modification from early
Zone practice with LF, but does not change the fact that his work is
consistent with core ZS theory and some practices. His conclusion
that his work is different seems to be the taking off point for his
jump to the conclusion that he is better than all others, nay the
greatest, as he has professed.


Speaking of pale moons, there is a lunar eclipse coming up later this month.
Is anyone going to try to shoot it?

I like to see what others have done with their more suitable
equipment, and knowledge. I await something stunning from Mr.
Covington, among others. Sometimes appreciation is a rewarding
activity.

Oh, the lines about the subjects he directed our attention are from a
Judy Collins song.


Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Robert Vervoordt wrote:
: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:48:36 -0000, (Travis
: Porco) wrote:

: In article ,
: Robert Vervoordt wrote:
: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:26:36 -0500, Peter De Smidt
: pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote:
:
: ...
:
: I saw the pictures of his, MS's that he has on an Ilford site. I had
: to laugh, as he put up a load of Zone system subject matter; you know,
: weathered bulding parts, "broken windows and empty hallways", All it
: was lacking was a "pale dead moon in a sky full of Gray".
:
: "Zone system subject matter"?
:
: Not sure I get it. Do you mean things for which the ZS would be considered
: appropriate?

: Yes.

: Do you mean "trite, hackneyed" imitation of Minor White and
: Ansel Adams?

: Yes.

: He's completely oblivious of the sensibilities he shares withothers.
: He seems to think he's so unique, that he can just rely, unthinkingly
: on his "feelings" when he shoots and that his results will be just
: fine. All of us have a commonality of experince, conditioning and
: basic perceptual faculties. When we find ourselves admiring someone
: else's work, those factors are all engaged. So, too with him; hejust
: will never admit it.

This could be the reason photographs the scenes he does. I hink he avoids
situations to which his approach won't work well.


: The subject matter reflects this. His reliance on a shouldering film
: and some form of compensation in development as well as somewhat
: generous exposure outs him into the realm of Zone practice. The fact
: that he does this in 35mm and not LF is why he contends that he is
: different, The use of 35mm does require some modification from early
: Zone practice with LF, but does not change the fact that his work is
: consistent with core ZS theory and some practices. His conclusion
: that his work is different seems to be the taking off point for his
: jump to the conclusion that he is better than all others, nay the
: greatest, as he has professed.

I've also long felt and have stated the reason he insists on using film
with distinct shouldering is that he kind of meters on the shadow and then
bounces that highlights off of the shoulder of the film. I do agree with his
use of dilute developers. I just disagree with using the dilution to control
the highlights of the negative and prefer to use development time.
:
: Speaking of pale moons, there is a lunar eclipse coming up later this month.
: Is anyone going to try to shoot it?

: I like to see what others have done with their more suitable
: equipment, and knowledge. I await something stunning from Mr.
: Covington, among others. Sometimes appreciation is a rewarding
: activity.

: Oh, the lines about the subjects he directed our attention are from a
: Judy Collins song.


: Robert Vervoordt, MFA

--




Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:19:32 -0500, Frank Pittel
wrote:

Robert Vervoordt wrote:
: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:48:36 -0000, (Travis
: Porco) wrote:

: In article ,
: Robert Vervoordt wrote:
: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:26:36 -0500, Peter De Smidt
: pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote:
:
: ...
:
: I saw the pictures of his, MS's that he has on an Ilford site. I had
: to laugh, as he put up a load of Zone system subject matter; you know,
: weathered bulding parts, "broken windows and empty hallways", All it
: was lacking was a "pale dead moon in a sky full of Gray".
:
: "Zone system subject matter"?
:
: Not sure I get it. Do you mean things for which the ZS would be considered
: appropriate?

: Yes.

: Do you mean "trite, hackneyed" imitation of Minor White and
: Ansel Adams?

: Yes.

: He's completely oblivious of the sensibilities he shares withothers.
: He seems to think he's so unique, that he can just rely, unthinkingly
: on his "feelings" when he shoots and that his results will be just
: fine. All of us have a commonality of experince, conditioning and
: basic perceptual faculties. When we find ourselves admiring someone
: else's work, those factors are all engaged. So, too with him; hejust
: will never admit it.

This could be the reason photographs the scenes he does. I hink he avoids
situations to which his approach won't work well.

And that's a restriction. Perhaps one could be kind and call it a
selection. Whatever, it imposes limits on his work.


: The subject matter reflects this. His reliance on a shouldering film
: and some form of compensation in development as well as somewhat
: generous exposure outs him into the realm of Zone practice. The fact
: that he does this in 35mm and not LF is why he contends that he is
: different, The use of 35mm does require some modification from early
: Zone practice with LF, but does not change the fact that his work is
: consistent with core ZS theory and some practices. His conclusion
: that his work is different seems to be the taking off point for his
: jump to the conclusion that he is better than all others, nay the
: greatest, as he has professed.

I've also long felt and have stated the reason he insists on using film
with distinct shouldering is that he kind of meters on the shadow and then
bounces that highlights off of the shoulder of the film.

I work this way a lot, too. It's a safe and lazy way to do snapshots.

In motion picture work, you do have to get it right in the camera.
While there are means available in the lab, they are much less varied
or extensive. That's why there is the resort to lighting fill and
scrimming on a set or controllable location. Add to that, the almost
complete reliance on the Cinematographer's ability to prexisualize the
final result, all the way to the projection print, and you'll see why
the Zone System has applications beyond landscapes, broken windows and
LF, in general.

I do agree with his
use of dilute developers. I just disagree with using the dilution to control
the highlights of the negative and prefer to use development time.

Yeah, well there are a lot of techniques axailable to effect control
of our still work that the MP guys can't access without great cost,
control and effort. Add in the effect of the Producer with his demons
and you'll appreciate what even a pedestrian DP achieves. MS probably
hates them because their heroic achievements put his efforts in their
place. He hasn't learned the value of appreciation of others; and so,
he's trapped in the errors of his own mind.
:
: Speaking of pale moons, there is a lunar eclipse coming up later this month.
: Is anyone going to try to shoot it?

: I like to see what others have done with their more suitable
: equipment, and knowledge. I await something stunning from Mr.
: Covington, among others. Sometimes appreciation is a rewarding
: activity.

: Oh, the lines about the subjects he directed our attention are from a
: Judy Collins song.

I think the song ends with:

"Help the needy and show them the way.
Human kindness is overflowing, and I think it's gonna rain today."

I know you and I have different political orientations, we probably
have some in photography as well, but if you look into what we have
expressed about the less fortunate, we might still find common ground.
This is because we, and many in this NG are willing to discuss with
some openness to other's value.

There is where MS has his greatest failing; and it doesn't bode well
for his future success. Nor does it bode well for your hope and
effort to get him to reform.

When you think of replying to him in the future, just say no.

Regards


Robert Vervoordt, MFA

_Why_ are you guys still talking about this here? If you must obsess,
why not take it to private email? Neither of you can have any Lagavulin
tonight!

-Peter

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:11:47 -0500, Peter De Smidt
pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote:

_Why_ are you guys still talking about this here? If you must obsess,
why not take it to private email? Neither of you can have any Lagavulin
tonight!

-Peter

You can't stop me, I don't live near you!! ;-?

What's Lagavulin?



Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Robert Vervoordt wrote:
: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:11:47 -0500, Peter De Smidt
: pdesmidt*no*spam*@tds.*net* wrote:

: _Why_ are you guys still talking about this here? If you must obsess,
: why not take it to private email? Neither of you can have any Lagavulin
: tonight!
:
: -Peter

: You can't stop me, I don't live near you!! ;-?

: What's Lagavulin?

I don't know but I agree that this thread needs to end now.
--




Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------