[expert? ] ARGH! strange effect on negatives

"Robert Vervoordt" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:53:29 GMT, stefano bramato
wrote:

Hallo.
this week another error or strange effect on a negative.
This time is
very very difficult to understand.

Negative was Neopan 400
developed in Microphen 1+1 7'30" @ 20°C
stop in water
fix with Ilford RapidFix 8'
washed for 10'
Once

The negative has perfect contrast, density and so forth.
+Once dryed so the negative looks quite good
but the real problem is the emulsion side surface.
Usually this surface is quite smoot, not glossy like the
other side, but
smooth.
This time i feel the surface like satin, with some noise
when touching.
Like touching a very fine sand.
First time in 12 years, again.
under strong magnification under my Durst "sandy surface"
it seems like
bubbles, everywhere in hilights and in low lights
indifferently.

Once printed here are some results.

http://www.bramatobros.com/posts/24092004/


Pics are quite heavy and large to allow a good vision of
the problem.


I need some serious help because this error in a batch of
4 roll it
happens everytime in different intensity. But it happens
and pratically
my films are useless...

Are this lot of film defective?

Perhaps

Are this films burned by something in developing?

Doubtful.
No acid stop and
normal fixing time was used.

I saw something like this in a demo by an old hand lab
technician. He
was debunking the standard idea that this only came from
high
Carbonate developers with an acid stop. He used some
other kind of
developer and a very strong fix. There were bubbles and
pinholes
galore. Something like this eems to fit your problem
negs.

Try a test with Microphen again, and use an acid stop.

Another consideration, beside the method and timing of the
water bath,
which may have been too short, is the strength of the
rapid fix. I
wonder if the length of time used for this step may be too
long.

Anyone?
In the meantime i'm testing another kind of batch of
strips of this film
to test with Ilfosol and ID-11 as my usual developers...

HELP!!

Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Microphen is essentially a Phenidone version of D-76,
rather low pH and buffered using Borax as the alkali.
The water rinse stop bath should not have caused
problems. Even though Ilford Rapid Fixer does not have a
hardener it is acid and buffered so it would have stopped
development instantly.
Unless other rolls of film from the same batch have been
processed successfully I suspect a coating problem, Ilford
has been having them lately. I think it might be worth
examining an unexposed roll of film to see if the surface is
smooth. If not, contact Ilford.
BTW, I wonder about the demonstration mentioned above.
Carbonate is the only alkali commonly used in developers
which outgasses. Even so pinholes, which are actual
disruptions of the emulsion, are quite rare. Generally what
is attributed to pinholes is actually from embedded dust.
The procedure of the original poster is OK but the fixing
time is too long for film strength rapid fixer and the wash
time too short. The longer fixing time might cause some
bleaching of the highlights although that will be slight.
Washing without a sulfite wash aid should last about half an
hour. With wash aid five minutes is enough.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

"Robert Vervoordt" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:53:29 GMT, stefano bramato
wrote:

Hallo.
this week another error or strange effect on a negative.
This time is
very very difficult to understand.

Negative was Neopan 400
developed in Microphen 1+1 7'30" @ 20°C
stop in water
fix with Ilford RapidFix 8'
washed for 10'
Once

The negative has perfect contrast, density and so forth.
+Once dryed so the negative looks quite good
but the real problem is the emulsion side surface.
Usually this surface is quite smoot, not glossy like the
other side, but
smooth.
This time i feel the surface like satin, with some noise
when touching.
Like touching a very fine sand.
First time in 12 years, again.
under strong magnification under my Durst "sandy surface"
it seems like
bubbles, everywhere in hilights and in low lights
indifferently.

Once printed here are some results.

http://www.bramatobros.com/posts/24092004/


Pics are quite heavy and large to allow a good vision of
the problem.


I need some serious help because this error in a batch of
4 roll it
happens everytime in different intensity. But it happens
and pratically
my films are useless...

Are this lot of film defective?

Perhaps

Are this films burned by something in developing?

Doubtful.
No acid stop and
normal fixing time was used.

I saw something like this in a demo by an old hand lab
technician. He
was debunking the standard idea that this only came from
high
Carbonate developers with an acid stop. He used some
other kind of
developer and a very strong fix. There were bubbles and
pinholes
galore. Something like this eems to fit your problem
negs.

Try a test with Microphen again, and use an acid stop.

Another consideration, beside the method and timing of the
water bath,
which may have been too short, is the strength of the
rapid fix. I
wonder if the length of time used for this step may be too
long.

Anyone?
In the meantime i'm testing another kind of batch of
strips of this film
to test with Ilfosol and ID-11 as my usual developers...

HELP!!

Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Microphen is essentially a Phenidone version of D-76,
rather low pH and buffered using Borax as the alkali.
The water rinse stop bath should not have caused
problems. Even though Ilford Rapid Fixer does not have a
hardener it is acid and buffered so it would have stopped
development instantly.
Unless other rolls of film from the same batch have been
processed successfully I suspect a coating problem, Ilford
has been having them lately. I think it might be worth
examining an unexposed roll of film to see if the surface is
smooth. If not, contact Ilford.
BTW, I wonder about the demonstration mentioned above.
Carbonate is the only alkali commonly used in developers
which outgasses. Even so pinholes, which are actual
disruptions of the emulsion, are quite rare. Generally what
is attributed to pinholes is actually from embedded dust.
The procedure of the original poster is OK but the fixing
time is too long for film strength rapid fixer and the wash
time too short. The longer fixing time might cause some
bleaching of the highlights although that will be slight.
Washing without a sulfite wash aid should last about half an
hour. With wash aid five minutes is enough.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

stefano bramato wrote

Hallo.
this week another error or strange effect on a negative. This time is
very very difficult to understand.

I need some serious help because this error in a batch of 4 roll it
happens everytime in different intensity. But it happens and pratically
my films are useless...

Are this lot of film defective?


IIRC, your last "ARGH" was 'corrected' by using a more correct
agitation in the fixer. Was that a coincidence? Are you up against
a one in one million few rolls of film.
Before I forget, I think 8 minutes in film strength rapid fix is
to much.
Back to the film, two films are making trouble. What do they have
in common; date of purchase, storage, transport, place of
purchase, etc?
I think you are an experienced film processor with a mystery to
solve. Dan

stefano bramato wrote

Hallo.
this week another error or strange effect on a negative. This time is
very very difficult to understand.

I need some serious help because this error in a batch of 4 roll it
happens everytime in different intensity. But it happens and pratically
my films are useless...

Are this lot of film defective?


IIRC, your last "ARGH" was 'corrected' by using a more correct
agitation in the fixer. Was that a coincidence? Are you up against
a one in one million few rolls of film.
Before I forget, I think 8 minutes in film strength rapid fix is
to much.
Back to the film, two films are making trouble. What do they have
in common; date of purchase, storage, transport, place of
purchase, etc?
I think you are an experienced film processor with a mystery to
solve. Dan

I have a film (actually Neopan400) that has some of this. It was a
test roll and I was less than careful in its procesing. I think I let
some hot water drop into the open tank since i was not going to the
trouble of my normal washing routine. On my film, this is evidenced
by the trouble being in patches. It doesn't look like the classic
reticulation seen in the older books on technique: it's less obvious.

Do you suspect Stefano's films of reticulation, 'winddancing'? I'm rather
dubious that's the problem; reticulation shows cracks that make the print
look like a landscape where a burning sun has dried the mud. And I don't
believe you can actually _feel_ reticulation (no experience, never succeeded
in reticulating a film ;-)).
Omly once i reticulated a film for creative purposes by agitating, using
strong developments and long time of developments.
Under strong magnifing the reticulation show almost everywhere cracks
and deeps. I used an old fp4 film.
with todays films is very difficult to reticulate, and my negative is
not retuculated.


I notice those 'bubbles' print lighter than their surroundings, so they must
have a dark or opaque appearance on the negative. As you can feel them,
Stefano, they can be deposits from the wash water or dust settling down when
the film hangs drying (I bet on the first).

Mmm... no. They are, of course opaque but not black and not a particle
of deposit. I write this becaus ewhen looking a negative a look also in
the borders. And they show the same tiny bubbles. Not particles.



As your negatives look - sorry for my hard verdict - rather lost,
ye, you're right

you can
try this experiment: rewash the film (or a single band of negs for a
careful test); after washing, soak in deminaralised water with wetting
agent, hang to dry in a _dust free_ room at room temparature (bathrooms are
mostly the least dusted places in our homes). Hang the film, tip toe away
and gently close the door until next morning. Carefully control the
temperature of the wash water and demin. water! To cold doesn't wash well,
to hot makes the emulsion very week, switching from hotter to colder (-5°C)
can make the emulsion reticulate.
I was thinking about it.
First tomorrow I will retry to develop a 10 shots of the same roll as a
test.
then, and I will try asap your suggestions. When I have a problem I want
to understand where is the gap and solve soon.
I learn faster.

If this rewashing doesn't help, you can try gently wiping the negs (after
another washing session + soaking in demin. water & wetting agent) with a
_clean_ (new) chamois leather. This _can_ (allmost certainly) give scratches
on the film, but when it solves your problem, I mean: when your 'bubbles'
are gone, you can at least assume that my diagnosis comes close to the truth
and you'll be able to prevent it in the future with the above procedure.

Jan


thanks jan, this will be one of my tests.

--
Non è bello cio che è bello figuriamoci cio che è brutto!

There were bubbles and pinholes
galore. Something like this eems to fit your problem negs.


yes...

Try a test with Microphen again, and use an acid stop.


i used acetic acid sometimes (2% solution in 1liter) but i feel no
necessary this one. About 30" of normal water wash I think do the same.


Another consideration, beside the method and timing of the water bath,
which may have been too short, is the strength of the rapid fix.

Sometimes when I've to develop a batch of several rolls I start to have
a stronger solution of fix.
For example instead of 1:4 of fix I start with 1:3,4.
This time, with frsh fixer I starte to fix 1:4... gosh! As manual
suggests!!

I wonder if the length of time used for this step may be too long.

I wonder too that the acidic fixer used for a long time for first rolls
can produce this.... tomorrow i will try also this.

Thanks a lot for the followup-

Stefano

--
Non è bello cio che è bello figuriamoci cio che è brutto!

There were bubbles and pinholes
galore. Something like this eems to fit your problem negs.


yes...

Try a test with Microphen again, and use an acid stop.


i used acetic acid sometimes (2% solution in 1liter) but i feel no
necessary this one. About 30" of normal water wash I think do the same.


Another consideration, beside the method and timing of the water bath,
which may have been too short, is the strength of the rapid fix.

Sometimes when I've to develop a batch of several rolls I start to have
a stronger solution of fix.
For example instead of 1:4 of fix I start with 1:3,4.
This time, with frsh fixer I starte to fix 1:4... gosh! As manual
suggests!!

I wonder if the length of time used for this step may be too long.

I wonder too that the acidic fixer used for a long time for first rolls
can produce this.... tomorrow i will try also this.

Thanks a lot for the followup-

Stefano

--
Non è bello cio che è bello figuriamoci cio che è brutto!

The procedure of the original poster is OK but the fixing
time is too long for film strength rapid fixer and the wash
time too short. The longer fixing time might cause some
bleaching of the highlights although that will be slight.
Washing without a sulfite wash aid should last about half an
hour. With wash aid five minutes is enough.


Never washed with washaid, but i always wash for minimum 8 minutes, with
agitation every minutes like developing and changing water after session
of agitation. I've negatives from the early nineties in perfect working
order.

It Is growing the suspect of long time fixing, but it would be the first
time in 13years about that more than 8' fix make bubbles on the
emulsion.
Gosh.

Today i will try also this: a saturday in searching of errors made....

Thanks very much, your suggestions are always appreciated.

Stefano
--
Non è bello cio che è bello figuriamoci cio che è brutto!

The procedure of the original poster is OK but the fixing
time is too long for film strength rapid fixer and the wash
time too short. The longer fixing time might cause some
bleaching of the highlights although that will be slight.
Washing without a sulfite wash aid should last about half an
hour. With wash aid five minutes is enough.


Never washed with washaid, but i always wash for minimum 8 minutes, with
agitation every minutes like developing and changing water after session
of agitation. I've negatives from the early nineties in perfect working
order.

It Is growing the suspect of long time fixing, but it would be the first
time in 13years about that more than 8' fix make bubbles on the
emulsion.
Gosh.

Today i will try also this: a saturday in searching of errors made....

Thanks very much, your suggestions are always appreciated.

Stefano
--
Non è bello cio che è bello figuriamoci cio che è brutto!