SP2 Woes

Roger Halstead wrote:

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:13:28 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
wrote:


Ken Davey wrote:


"David J Taylor"
wrote in message ...

Mike Harvey wrote:
[]

It seems that Microsoft broke some of their own software with this
patch: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17869
and
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=842242

With respect, I would expect many of those programs to "break" whatever
firewall software was installed. The KB article seems to say little more
than "open the ports these programs need".

Cheers,
David

Here is a Microsoft site with a list of programs that 'may' be affected.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;884130
Regards.
Ken.

How curious. I expected WordPerfect 11 not to work, but Zone Alarm?
My my. And my viruschecker as well... Then there's Nero 6 Ultra,
my CD and DVD burning software.


I have these, they work fine, and I didn't even have to download any
updates Except for Norton Antivirus and the System Works live update
took care of that.
Zone Alarm? It works fine. You just have to put it in learn mode and
give access to the proper apps..



And InstallShield 8. How do I
know which of my programs installs with that? And Pinnicle Studio?
And the free version of Real Player.

My goodness. What can I do?

Oh, wait. Microsoft has programs that will replace most all of
this don't they...

Ok bad guys out there! I've installed all of the security updates
up to the release of SP2. But I don't think I'm going to
install SP2 -- at least not until somebody supplies me with
updates to those (and a number of other) programs so that
they will work.

I guess I'll just have to hide behind my existing firewalls...


I installed SP-2 and I'm still hiding behind my existing ZA firewalls.
:-)) I haven't learned to trust MS quite yet.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

---- Paul J. Gans


While ZA isn't my choice of firewall, I am sure that almost ANY
commercial firewall will do the job better than the one built into SP2.
That said, I am also sure that the built in one is better than no
firewall at all. It isn't a matter of trust, just experience with built
ins versus commercial software.
I wouldn't trade Adobe PSE2 for MS Paint, either.

Roger Halstead wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:13:28 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:

"David J Taylor"
wrote in message ...
Mike Harvey wrote:
[]
It seems that Microsoft broke some of their own software with this
patch: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17869
and
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=842242

With respect, I would expect many of those programs to "break" whatever
firewall software was installed. The KB article seems to say little more
than "open the ports these programs need".

Cheers,
David

Here is a Microsoft site with a list of programs that 'may' be affected.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;884130
Regards.
Ken.

How curious. I expected WordPerfect 11 not to work, but Zone Alarm?
My my. And my viruschecker as well... Then there's Nero 6 Ultra,
my CD and DVD burning software.

I have these, they work fine, and I didn't even have to download any
updates Except for Norton Antivirus and the System Works live update
took care of that.
Zone Alarm? It works fine. You just have to put it in learn mode and
give access to the proper apps..


And InstallShield 8. How do I
know which of my programs installs with that? And Pinnicle Studio?
And the free version of Real Player.

My goodness. What can I do?

Oh, wait. Microsoft has programs that will replace most all of
this don't they...

Ok bad guys out there! I've installed all of the security updates
up to the release of SP2. But I don't think I'm going to
install SP2 -- at least not until somebody supplies me with
updates to those (and a number of other) programs so that
they will work.

I guess I'll just have to hide behind my existing firewalls...

I installed SP-2 and I'm still hiding behind my existing ZA firewalls.
:-)) I haven't learned to trust MS quite yet.

I've been thinking of installing SP2 and turning the firewall
off. My home setup has the machine behind a router with a
built-in firewall. And I like Zone Alarm very much.

At work (my other XP machine) the firewall is more of a
problem. But one thing at a time.

----- Paul J. Gans

Roger Halstead wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:13:28 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans
wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:

"David J Taylor"
wrote in message ...
Mike Harvey wrote:
[]
It seems that Microsoft broke some of their own software with this
patch: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17869
and
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=842242

With respect, I would expect many of those programs to "break" whatever
firewall software was installed. The KB article seems to say little more
than "open the ports these programs need".

Cheers,
David

Here is a Microsoft site with a list of programs that 'may' be affected.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;884130
Regards.
Ken.

How curious. I expected WordPerfect 11 not to work, but Zone Alarm?
My my. And my viruschecker as well... Then there's Nero 6 Ultra,
my CD and DVD burning software.

I have these, they work fine, and I didn't even have to download any
updates Except for Norton Antivirus and the System Works live update
took care of that.
Zone Alarm? It works fine. You just have to put it in learn mode and
give access to the proper apps..


And InstallShield 8. How do I
know which of my programs installs with that? And Pinnicle Studio?
And the free version of Real Player.

My goodness. What can I do?

Oh, wait. Microsoft has programs that will replace most all of
this don't they...

Ok bad guys out there! I've installed all of the security updates
up to the release of SP2. But I don't think I'm going to
install SP2 -- at least not until somebody supplies me with
updates to those (and a number of other) programs so that
they will work.

I guess I'll just have to hide behind my existing firewalls...

I installed SP-2 and I'm still hiding behind my existing ZA firewalls.
:-)) I haven't learned to trust MS quite yet.

I've been thinking of installing SP2 and turning the firewall
off. My home setup has the machine behind a router with a
built-in firewall. And I like Zone Alarm very much.

At work (my other XP machine) the firewall is more of a
problem. But one thing at a time.

----- Paul J. Gans

Ron Hunter wrote:
Paul J Gans wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote:

Paul J Gans wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:



"David J Taylor"
wrote in message ...


Mike Harvey wrote:
[]


It seems that Microsoft broke some of their own software with this
patch: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17869
and
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=842242

With respect, I would expect many of those programs to "break" whatever
firewall software was installed. The KB article seems to say little more
than "open the ports these programs need".

Cheers,
David


Here is a Microsoft site with a list of programs that 'may' be affected.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;884130
Regards.
Ken.


How curious. I expected WordPerfect 11 not to work, but Zone Alarm?
My my. And my viruschecker as well... Then there's Nero 6 Ultra,
my CD and DVD burning software. And InstallShield 8. How do I
know which of my programs installs with that? And Pinnicle Studio?
And the free version of Real Player.

My goodness. What can I do?

Oh, wait. Microsoft has programs that will replace most all of
this don't they...

Ok bad guys out there! I've installed all of the security updates
up to the release of SP2. But I don't think I'm going to
install SP2 -- at least not until somebody supplies me with
updates to those (and a number of other) programs so that
they will work.

I guess I'll just have to hide behind my existing firewalls...

---- Paul J. Gans


First, since firewalls are particularly 'intimate' with the boot
process, and the OS internals, it comes as no surprise that ZA has
issues. I am sure that if they don't already have an update, they will
very shortly. Meanwhile, the MS firewall is better than none at all,
however marginally.
I can't see how any of this reflects negatively on MS for trying to fix
problems with their product, and free at that.


Well, I'm sitting behind a Linksys router with a firewall in
addition to Zone Alarm.

But your more important question about fixing their products has
a different answer. The problems most folks object to about
Windows is that the vulnerabilities were *designed in*. Things
like a remote site being able to execute code on your machine,
etc.

However, the largest problem I have is that Windows is geared to
the clueless. Things are done for you automatically and you can
not easily find out *what* has been done. If you are a guru or
have a tame one handy, you can often (but not always) change the
settings to suit you.

This is evil. It is precisely the difference between a consumer
point and shoot and a pro SLR. Except that I don't get the chance
to buy the pro SLR equivalent version of Windows. I'm forced to
take the point and shoot version and make changes at my risk.

----- Paul J. Gans



I question the 'designed in' statement. I am sure that no company would
actually design in such vulnerability. The legal ramifications would be
fatal. However, security was NOT a major concern in the design, but
rather making an OS that allowed easy use, and access from the provider
end so that the user could be bombarded with commercial messages.
Unfortunately, this lack of attention to such considerations as
prevention of data buffer overruns has come back to haunt them. And
they ARE trying to correct the problems. They have even been forced to
close up the 'holes' that were made to allow commercial intrusions and
configure the software to be secure out of the box. That's progress,
reluctant though they were to do it.

It is progress. But their operating system design was known
not to be secure at the time it was designed. We've known
how to build decent operating systems for over 30 years now.

Designing in the ability for an e-mail reader to execute
a program contained in the e-mail was evil. It was done for
a good purpose when the net was a lot safer, but that too was
known to be a bad thing.

But enough. This is all off-topic here.

If you don't like Windows, use Unix, or Mac, or better yet, write your
own, attract vendors to write software for it, and get richer than Bill
Gates.

I think I'd like that. What I actually run at home is a dual-boot
machine with both XP and Linux. I mostly use XP for Photoshop and
Dreamweaver (and a few other programs) and Linux for everything else,
including reading e-mail and newsgroups.

---- Paul J. Gans

Ron Hunter wrote:
Paul J Gans wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote:

Paul J Gans wrote:

Ken Davey wrote:



"David J Taylor"
wrote in message ...


Mike Harvey wrote:
[]


It seems that Microsoft broke some of their own software with this
patch: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17869
and
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=842242

With respect, I would expect many of those programs to "break" whatever
firewall software was installed. The KB article seems to say little more
than "open the ports these programs need".

Cheers,
David


Here is a Microsoft site with a list of programs that 'may' be affected.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;884130
Regards.
Ken.


How curious. I expected WordPerfect 11 not to work, but Zone Alarm?
My my. And my viruschecker as well... Then there's Nero 6 Ultra,
my CD and DVD burning software. And InstallShield 8. How do I
know which of my programs installs with that? And Pinnicle Studio?
And the free version of Real Player.

My goodness. What can I do?

Oh, wait. Microsoft has programs that will replace most all of
this don't they...

Ok bad guys out there! I've installed all of the security updates
up to the release of SP2. But I don't think I'm going to
install SP2 -- at least not until somebody supplies me with
updates to those (and a number of other) programs so that
they will work.

I guess I'll just have to hide behind my existing firewalls...

---- Paul J. Gans


First, since firewalls are particularly 'intimate' with the boot
process, and the OS internals, it comes as no surprise that ZA has
issues. I am sure that if they don't already have an update, they will
very shortly. Meanwhile, the MS firewall is better than none at all,
however marginally.
I can't see how any of this reflects negatively on MS for trying to fix
problems with their product, and free at that.


Well, I'm sitting behind a Linksys router with a firewall in
addition to Zone Alarm.

But your more important question about fixing their products has
a different answer. The problems most folks object to about
Windows is that the vulnerabilities were *designed in*. Things
like a remote site being able to execute code on your machine,
etc.

However, the largest problem I have is that Windows is geared to
the clueless. Things are done for you automatically and you can
not easily find out *what* has been done. If you are a guru or
have a tame one handy, you can often (but not always) change the
settings to suit you.

This is evil. It is precisely the difference between a consumer
point and shoot and a pro SLR. Except that I don't get the chance
to buy the pro SLR equivalent version of Windows. I'm forced to
take the point and shoot version and make changes at my risk.

----- Paul J. Gans



I question the 'designed in' statement. I am sure that no company would
actually design in such vulnerability. The legal ramifications would be
fatal. However, security was NOT a major concern in the design, but
rather making an OS that allowed easy use, and access from the provider
end so that the user could be bombarded with commercial messages.
Unfortunately, this lack of attention to such considerations as
prevention of data buffer overruns has come back to haunt them. And
they ARE trying to correct the problems. They have even been forced to
close up the 'holes' that were made to allow commercial intrusions and
configure the software to be secure out of the box. That's progress,
reluctant though they were to do it.

It is progress. But their operating system design was known
not to be secure at the time it was designed. We've known
how to build decent operating systems for over 30 years now.

Designing in the ability for an e-mail reader to execute
a program contained in the e-mail was evil. It was done for
a good purpose when the net was a lot safer, but that too was
known to be a bad thing.

But enough. This is all off-topic here.

If you don't like Windows, use Unix, or Mac, or better yet, write your
own, attract vendors to write software for it, and get richer than Bill
Gates.

I think I'd like that. What I actually run at home is a dual-boot
machine with both XP and Linux. I mostly use XP for Photoshop and
Dreamweaver (and a few other programs) and Linux for everything else,
including reading e-mail and newsgroups.

---- Paul J. Gans

Paul J Gans wrote:
snip
I've been thinking of installing SP2 and turning the firewall
off. My home setup has the machine behind a router with a
built-in firewall. And I like Zone Alarm very much.

At work (my other XP machine) the firewall is more of a
problem. But one thing at a time.

----- Paul J. Gans

Actually that is recommend - if you have a better firewall. You have two
better firewalls. The Windows one has improved, but it's not up to the
level of ZoneAlarm yet.

I run Sygate's Personal Firewall which is much like ZA. SP2 didn't
recognize it, but I told Windows not to check it and turned off the
Windows firewall. It works just fine.

I also have a firewall in my router.

Clyde

Paul J Gans wrote:
snip
I've been thinking of installing SP2 and turning the firewall
off. My home setup has the machine behind a router with a
built-in firewall. And I like Zone Alarm very much.

At work (my other XP machine) the firewall is more of a
problem. But one thing at a time.

----- Paul J. Gans

Actually that is recommend - if you have a better firewall. You have two
better firewalls. The Windows one has improved, but it's not up to the
level of ZoneAlarm yet.

I run Sygate's Personal Firewall which is much like ZA. SP2 didn't
recognize it, but I told Windows not to check it and turned off the
Windows firewall. It works just fine.

I also have a firewall in my router.

Clyde

Clyde wrote:
Paul J Gans wrote:
snip
I've been thinking of installing SP2 and turning the firewall
off. My home setup has the machine behind a router with a
built-in firewall. And I like Zone Alarm very much.

At work (my other XP machine) the firewall is more of a
problem. But one thing at a time.

----- Paul J. Gans

Actually that is recommend - if you have a better firewall. You have two
better firewalls. The Windows one has improved, but it's not up to the
level of ZoneAlarm yet.

I run Sygate's Personal Firewall which is much like ZA. SP2 didn't
recognize it, but I told Windows not to check it and turned off the
Windows firewall. It works just fine.

I also have a firewall in my router.

Clyde

Thanks. Sounds good.

---- Paul J. Gans