Question for Patrick Gainer

Patrick,

I very much appreciate your articles in Photo Techniques over the years,
and you've saved me a lot of time experimenting. I haven't yet tried your
ethylene or propylene glycol formulas, but I'm sure I will. I'm currently
standardized on one of your Phenidone/Vit. C (with a little HQ and
sulfite) formulas with Delta 400 for my medium and large format stuff.
One observation you may be interested in; in one of your recent articles,
you recommended borax as the activator. When I tried that, at the
starting times you suggested, the negs came out very underdeveloped. I
substituted an equivalent amount of Kodalk Balanced Alkali for the borax
and everything was fine. (I was using plain old 20 MuleTeam borax from
the grocery store).

I've come into a stash of about 40 rolls of Delta 100 and about the same
of FP4+. Before I start shooting it up, do you have any suggestions for
a)modifying or switching the developer, b)suggested ISO for development
in the Phenidone/Vit C/HQ/sulfite/Kodalk formula, and c)suggested
development time for a starting point?

Larry Kalajainen

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

"L. R. Kalajainen" wrote:

Patrick,

I very much appreciate your articles in Photo Techniques over the years,
and you've saved me a lot of time experimenting. I haven't yet tried your
ethylene or propylene glycol formulas, but I'm sure I will. I'm currently
standardized on one of your Phenidone/Vit. C (with a little HQ and
sulfite) formulas with Delta 400 for my medium and large format stuff.
One observation you may be interested in; in one of your recent articles,
you recommended borax as the activator. When I tried that, at the
starting times you suggested, the negs came out very underdeveloped. I
substituted an equivalent amount of Kodalk Balanced Alkali for the borax
and everything was fine. (I was using plain old 20 MuleTeam borax from
the grocery store).

I've come into a stash of about 40 rolls of Delta 100 and about the same
of FP4+. Before I start shooting it up, do you have any suggestions for
a)modifying or switching the developer, b)suggested ISO for development
in the Phenidone/Vit C/HQ/sulfite/Kodalk formula, and c)suggested
development time for a starting point?

Larry Kalajainen

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
I don't have any experience with that developer and those films. I am
racking my brain trying to remember which formula I recommended with
both ascorbic acid and hydroquinone in it. I remember an article
describing some experiments with that combination as a means of
simulating HC110 + ascorbate.

My original formulas had phenidone, ascorbic acid and sodium carbonate.
As an alternative to the carbonate, I suggested a mixture of boric acid
and sodium hydroxide that is close to Kodalk. You can find these
mixtures in www.unblinkingeye.com. Neither hydroquinone nor sulfite is
required for full film speed and fine grain. If you feel the need for
hydroquinone, only a very small amount of sulfite is required to
activate its superadditivity with phenidone.

Thanks, Patrick. I should have been more clear; It was your article on
HC110 and ascorbate from which I extrapolated the addition of HQ and
sulfite for my own formula.
I'll check out the unblinking eye website.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:28:23 -0400, Patrick Gainer
wrote:



"L. R. Kalajainen" wrote:

Patrick,

I very much appreciate your articles in Photo Techniques over the years,
and you've saved me a lot of time experimenting. I haven't yet tried
your
ethylene or propylene glycol formulas, but I'm sure I will. I'm
currently
standardized on one of your Phenidone/Vit. C (with a little HQ and
sulfite) formulas with Delta 400 for my medium and large format stuff.
One observation you may be interested in; in one of your recent
articles,
you recommended borax as the activator. When I tried that, at the
starting times you suggested, the negs came out very underdeveloped. I
substituted an equivalent amount of Kodalk Balanced Alkali for the borax
and everything was fine. (I was using plain old 20 MuleTeam borax from
the grocery store).

I've come into a stash of about 40 rolls of Delta 100 and about the same
of FP4+. Before I start shooting it up, do you have any suggestions
for
a)modifying or switching the developer, b)suggested ISO for development
in the Phenidone/Vit C/HQ/sulfite/Kodalk formula, and c)suggested
development time for a starting point?

Larry Kalajainen

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
I don't have any experience with that developer and those films. I am
racking my brain trying to remember which formula I recommended with
both ascorbic acid and hydroquinone in it. I remember an article
describing some experiments with that combination as a means of
simulating HC110 + ascorbate.

My original formulas had phenidone, ascorbic acid and sodium carbonate.
As an alternative to the carbonate, I suggested a mixture of boric acid
and sodium hydroxide that is close to Kodalk. You can find these
mixtures in www.unblinkingeye.com. Neither hydroquinone nor sulfite is
required for full film speed and fine grain. If you feel the need for
hydroquinone, only a very small amount of sulfite is required to
activate its superadditivity with phenidone.



--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

I ust ran my first couple of rolls in a combination of the
antifreeze/phenidone/ascorbic acid part A and the sodium carbonate/borax
part B. It's pretty warm here in El Cajon now so I tried my first roll of
Acros at 5 min/80deg.f.. Just a little overdeveloped but very sharp and
printable. I'll try this next at 4.5 min and it should be very close to
perfect. The next roll was TMY at 4.5 min/80 deg. f. and it was very close
to right. If I had to make a change one way or the other, I'd maybe try 5
min.

I've never tried temps this high before, but I'm tired of chilling my
developer with ice cubes, and I can't keep lower temps stable anyway (in
summer). This is going to work out great.

Thanks Patrick.

Gene
"L. R. Kalajainen" wrote in message
news
Thanks, Patrick. I should have been more clear; It was your article on
HC110 and ascorbate from which I extrapolated the addition of HQ and
sulfite for my own formula.
I'll check out the unblinking eye website.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:28:23 -0400, Patrick Gainer
wrote:



"L. R. Kalajainen" wrote:

Patrick,

I very much appreciate your articles in Photo Techniques over the
years,
and you've saved me a lot of time experimenting. I haven't yet tried
your
ethylene or propylene glycol formulas, but I'm sure I will. I'm
currently
standardized on one of your Phenidone/Vit. C (with a little HQ and
sulfite) formulas with Delta 400 for my medium and large format stuff.
One observation you may be interested in; in one of your recent
articles,
you recommended borax as the activator. When I tried that, at the
starting times you suggested, the negs came out very underdeveloped. I
substituted an equivalent amount of Kodalk Balanced Alkali for the
borax
and everything was fine. (I was using plain old 20 MuleTeam borax from
the grocery store).

I've come into a stash of about 40 rolls of Delta 100 and about the
same
of FP4+. Before I start shooting it up, do you have any suggestions
for
a)modifying or switching the developer, b)suggested ISO for
development
in the Phenidone/Vit C/HQ/sulfite/Kodalk formula, and c)suggested
development time for a starting point?

Larry Kalajainen

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
I don't have any experience with that developer and those films. I am
racking my brain trying to remember which formula I recommended with
both ascorbic acid and hydroquinone in it. I remember an article
describing some experiments with that combination as a means of
simulating HC110 + ascorbate.

My original formulas had phenidone, ascorbic acid and sodium carbonate.
As an alternative to the carbonate, I suggested a mixture of boric acid
and sodium hydroxide that is close to Kodalk. You can find these
mixtures in www.unblinkingeye.com. Neither hydroquinone nor sulfite is
required for full film speed and fine grain. If you feel the need for
hydroquinone, only a very small amount of sulfite is required to
activate its superadditivity with phenidone.



--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

I ran some film this weekend with Patrick's new developer. Part A was 12.5 g
of ascorbic acid and .31gm of phenidone in 125ml of ordinary antifreeze from
my garage. My part B was 4tsp borax/4tsp sodium carbonate/1gallon h2o. I
developed a 120 roll of Acros for 4.5 min at 80 deg.f. and it was very nice
though next time I might go only 4 min.
I ran a roll of TMY for 4.5 min @ 80 deg.f. and it was also very nice. I
might go 5 min next time.

I've never developed at such a high temp before, but I thought as long as I
was experimenting, I would try it. It's pretty warm here in the summer and
I don't want to have to chill my developer.

The negs were very sharp and were relatively fog free with very fine grain
and nice smooth tones. I'm real happy with it. Thanks Patrick. Oh, the
Acros pics are on www.rollei-gallery.net under G.Johnson in the "Hollywood
blvd" folder

Gene Johnson


"L. R. Kalajainen" wrote in message
news
Thanks, Patrick. I should have been more clear; It was your article on
HC110 and ascorbate from which I extrapolated the addition of HQ and
sulfite for my own formula.
I'll check out the unblinking eye website.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:28:23 -0400, Patrick Gainer
wrote:



"L. R. Kalajainen" wrote:

Patrick,

I very much appreciate your articles in Photo Techniques over the
years,
and you've saved me a lot of time experimenting. I haven't yet tried
your
ethylene or propylene glycol formulas, but I'm sure I will. I'm
currently
standardized on one of your Phenidone/Vit. C (with a little HQ and
sulfite) formulas with Delta 400 for my medium and large format stuff.
One observation you may be interested in; in one of your recent
articles,
you recommended borax as the activator. When I tried that, at the
starting times you suggested, the negs came out very underdeveloped. I

substituted an equivalent amount of Kodalk Balanced Alkali for the
borax
and everything was fine. (I was using plain old 20 MuleTeam borax from
the grocery store).

I've come into a stash of about 40 rolls of Delta 100 and about the
same
of FP4+. Before I start shooting it up, do you have any suggestions
for
a)modifying or switching the developer, b)suggested ISO for
development
in the Phenidone/Vit C/HQ/sulfite/Kodalk formula, and c)suggested
development time for a starting point?

Larry Kalajainen

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
I don't have any experience with that developer and those films. I am
racking my brain trying to remember which formula I recommended with
both ascorbic acid and hydroquinone in it. I remember an article
describing some experiments with that combination as a means of
simulating HC110 + ascorbate.

My original formulas had phenidone, ascorbic acid and sodium carbonate.
As an alternative to the carbonate, I suggested a mixture of boric acid
and sodium hydroxide that is close to Kodalk. You can find these
mixtures in www.unblinkingeye.com. Neither hydroquinone nor sulfite is
required for full film speed and fine grain. If you feel the need for
hydroquinone, only a very small amount of sulfite is required to
activate its superadditivity with phenidone.



--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

In article 1OQnc.13743$A27.13133@fed1read06,
"Gene Johnson" wrote:

I ran some film this weekend with Patrick's new developer. Part A was 12.5 g
of ascorbic acid and .31gm of phenidone in 125ml of ordinary antifreeze from
my garage.

I seriously hope you are not pouring that crap down the drain.

Any Moose Poster wrote:
In article 1OQnc.13743$A27.13133@fed1read06,
"Gene Johnson" wrote:


I ran some film this weekend with Patrick's new developer. Part A was 12.5 g
of ascorbic acid and .31gm of phenidone in 125ml of ordinary antifreeze from
my garage.


I seriously hope you are not pouring that crap down the drain.

Let's see here -- 125 ml of ethylene glycol, that's just over four
ounces, diluted out against a gallon of water when the working solution
is made up. And just under a third of a gram of phenidone, plus some
ordinary laundry ingredients in the B solution.

Sure, it'd be better to use polyethylene glycol or propylene glycol, but
I just can't get worked up over half a cup of antifreeze spread over
what I'd expect to be sixteen rolls of 35 mm or eight rolls of 120;
there's probably a shade tree mechanic in your neighborhood who dumps
3-4 gallons of 50/50 coolant (50% ethylene glycol by volume) down a
storm drain once a year or so -- go ferret him out and report him to
EPA, leave some photographer's half cup alone.

I might suggest, however, that antifreeze is less than optimal for
photography because of the other things it may contain; at the very
least, all antifreeze formulations I've looked at recently contain some
variant of fluoerescin dye (gives them that glowing yellow-green
appearance); it might or might not have some effect photographically.
In addition, some varieties (Zerex?) have stop leak added, typically a
dissolved starch that surely can't do your film any good. Nearly all
have some sodium silicate as a corrosion inhibitor, some contain other
chemicals in the same role as well.

At the very least, if you're going to use antifreeze, either get the
Sierra brand (polyethylene glycol, far less toxic) or buy the really,
really cheap stuff that doesn't contain as many other oddball chemicals
that might make your film glow in the dark.

--
I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
-- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Sierra brand antifreeze is based on propylene glycol, which is pretty
much non-toxic. It probably still contains the dye and various other
surfactants and conditioners, though. None of the auto-supply shops in
my area carried it because it didn't sell well (it is more expensive
than ethylene glycol-based antifreezes) and so it was cheaper to order a
litre of it from www.chemistrystore.com.

Polyethylene glycol is actually a polymer available in various
(molecular) sizes -- physically these polymers are anything from thick
syrups to white solids. They are easily miscible with water and are used
in cosmetic products, etc.

Jordan

Donald Qualls wrote:

Any Moose Poster wrote:

In article 1OQnc.13743$A27.13133@fed1read06,
"Gene Johnson" wrote:


I ran some film this weekend with Patrick's new developer. Part A was
12.5 g
of ascorbic acid and .31gm of phenidone in 125ml of ordinary
antifreeze from
my garage.



I seriously hope you are not pouring that crap down the drain.


Let's see here -- 125 ml of ethylene glycol, that's just over four
ounces, diluted out against a gallon of water when the working solution
is made up. And just under a third of a gram of phenidone, plus some
ordinary laundry ingredients in the B solution.

Sure, it'd be better to use polyethylene glycol or propylene glycol, but
I just can't get worked up over half a cup of antifreeze spread over
what I'd expect to be sixteen rolls of 35 mm or eight rolls of 120;
there's probably a shade tree mechanic in your neighborhood who dumps
3-4 gallons of 50/50 coolant (50% ethylene glycol by volume) down a
storm drain once a year or so -- go ferret him out and report him to
EPA, leave some photographer's half cup alone.

I might suggest, however, that antifreeze is less than optimal for
photography because of the other things it may contain; at the very
least, all antifreeze formulations I've looked at recently contain some
variant of fluoerescin dye (gives them that glowing yellow-green
appearance); it might or might not have some effect photographically. In
addition, some varieties (Zerex?) have stop leak added, typically a
dissolved starch that surely can't do your film any good. Nearly all
have some sodium silicate as a corrosion inhibitor, some contain other
chemicals in the same role as well.

At the very least, if you're going to use antifreeze, either get the
Sierra brand (polyethylene glycol, far less toxic) or buy the really,
really cheap stuff that doesn't contain as many other oddball chemicals
that might make your film glow in the dark.

Sorry about the double post. I'm still getting the hang of this.

I wanted to see how this would work before buying more antifreeze. My next
batch will be with Sierra. Still, like Donald says, it's a pretty small
amount and pretty diluted yada yada...

Works very well so far.

Gene
"Any Moose Poster" wrote in message
...
In article 1OQnc.13743$A27.13133@fed1read06,
"Gene Johnson" wrote:

I ran some film this weekend with Patrick's new developer. Part A was
12.5 g
of ascorbic acid and .31gm of phenidone in 125ml of ordinary antifreeze
from
my garage.

I seriously hope you are not pouring that crap down the drain.

Any Moose Poster wrote:

In article 1OQnc.13743$A27.13133@fed1read06,
"Gene Johnson" wrote:

I ran some film this weekend with Patrick's new developer. Part A was 12.5 g
of ascorbic acid and .31gm of phenidone in 125ml of ordinary antifreeze from
my garage.

I seriously hope you are not pouring that crap down the drain.
Before you get all upset, look at the warning on the side of an HC110
bottle. If you spill it on your shoes, you are supposed to burn the
shoes or launder them thoroughly. I guess tht means don't wear leather
shoes in the darkroom, or cover them with baggies.