Xerox mechanical failure due to cover weight, No support from Xerox!!!!!

This is a long problem so I will be as brief as possible. I own a
large format printing company and we decide that we have a good market
to make gift cards and smaller prints to a number of our accounts. I
started with Phaser 860 to test market, we hand feeding a Wausau Exact
Indext 8".50x11" 110lb 200g/m. Then we would take the impression and
slit and fold with the Martin Yale 959. We wore out the head after
awile. So we thought its time to upgrade printers. We contacted Xerox
corporate sales explained exactly what our needs are and the paper
that I listed above Wausau 110lb. They checked everything out and we
would need to work with the DocuColor 2240 they stated. So then we did
extensive test at the Xerox in Bloomington Minnesota. They said the
specs of this machine fits our needs! So we did a five year lease and
a service contract. About after two months color hold of jobs got
really bad. When we ran a stock pile that we ran even a week ago the
hues would be so far out we were doing large percents of color
correcting like 50% multiple times. What printed befor blue was green
and yellow were orange. The service techs came out several times.
Never got any better just got worse. Then started fading overal tones
light tones completly washed out. I mean quality is very poor.
Calibrations did nothing. Service techs worked on this machine on and
off for months as I'm loosing accounts. So then Xerox decides that
they will swap out for the work centre pro 40 and tells me its print
enginge is completely different, but finding out later the same as the
2240. Runs good for three weeks color shifts during during runs of
stockpiles in the same run doesn't hold color at all! Tones are all
faded hues rocking back and forth a complete mess! Xerox service techs
are scratching there heads and work on this machine for about two
months!
Finaly the main Tech says he finds out that the Cover weight is making
a wear impression in the rollers and drum that he says is a dead end!
He says he can't do anything else and say he will comment to Xerox
that the amount of cover weight is to damaging to the rollors. Then he
tells me he has another account that is wearing these rollors out on
the machine every 20,000 impressions and that this machines seems to
be a dead end!!! I tell my dealer all this and they say I have to take
it up with Xerox cause they spec the machine suitable for my specs. So
we contact Xerox they have us write a letter on why we would need to
do a reverse sale to break the contract. We even have thousands of
scraps and documention of machine failure. We print a discriptive
letter not like this one as you can see I'm not a good writer. It has
contact information the ten yards of all problems. So we fax it. One
week goes by and another and another, we call our person that is
handling our customer support, leave multiple messages never call back
for two months!!!!! And ask us to refax our statement cause no
customer number listed on it!!! We fax back right away with the our
customer number another and wait another month with messages we left
to call, but never returned phone calls! Then they call today saying
sales rejects reverse sale. I ask this woman why? She says sales says
the work centre pro meets our specs. I ask her did you talk with the
service techs out in Minnesota she does'nt know!! I said the machine
as been broken for months and can't fix, now what. She does'nt know! I
say would'nt it be better to break the contract then replace the
machine every two weeks or month and I can't afford the down times?
She says she will talk to some people.
I would be fine just to break the contract, I have gotten legal
advice and was told to tell them if they don't break contract we will
sue and that's what I have now said if they don't I will persue losses
for accounts and material losses. She said I will let them know.

In article ,
(Taylor) wrote:

What does this have to do with large format?

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.

First......I can't fix your problems! Xerox apologizes for your frustration!

It seems to me that you have the wrong machine for your business. The 2240
and the WCP32/40 have always been targeted at the office environment and not
the production environment. Those machines are great for doing office
powerpoint presentations and the like but I would never recommend them for
your environment. It would seem that three things are a factor here......
price came in to play on this decission......the sales rep has led you down
the wrong path.....or you didn't state your intended use of the product.

It would be a better fit for a DOC12, DC3535 or DC2045 it sounds too me.

Just my opinion tho! 20 Yrs counts for something!



"Taylor" wrote in message
om...
This is a long problem so I will be as brief as possible. I own a
large format printing company and we decide that we have a good market
to make gift cards and smaller prints to a number of our accounts. I
started with Phaser 860 to test market, we hand feeding a Wausau Exact
Indext 8".50x11" 110lb 200g/m. Then we would take the impression and
slit and fold with the Martin Yale 959. We wore out the head after
awile. So we thought its time to upgrade printers. We contacted Xerox
corporate sales explained exactly what our needs are and the paper
that I listed above Wausau 110lb. They checked everything out and we
would need to work with the DocuColor 2240 they stated. So then we did
extensive test at the Xerox in Bloomington Minnesota. They said the
specs of this machine fits our needs! So we did a five year lease and
a service contract. About after two months color hold of jobs got
really bad. When we ran a stock pile that we ran even a week ago the
hues would be so far out we were doing large percents of color
correcting like 50% multiple times. What printed befor blue was green
and yellow were orange. The service techs came out several times.
Never got any better just got worse. Then started fading overal tones
light tones completly washed out. I mean quality is very poor.
Calibrations did nothing. Service techs worked on this machine on and
off for months as I'm loosing accounts. So then Xerox decides that
they will swap out for the work centre pro 40 and tells me its print
enginge is completely different, but finding out later the same as the
2240. Runs good for three weeks color shifts during during runs of
stockpiles in the same run doesn't hold color at all! Tones are all
faded hues rocking back and forth a complete mess! Xerox service techs
are scratching there heads and work on this machine for about two
months!
Finaly the main Tech says he finds out that the Cover weight is making
a wear impression in the rollers and drum that he says is a dead end!
He says he can't do anything else and say he will comment to Xerox
that the amount of cover weight is to damaging to the rollors. Then he
tells me he has another account that is wearing these rollors out on
the machine every 20,000 impressions and that this machines seems to
be a dead end!!! I tell my dealer all this and they say I have to take
it up with Xerox cause they spec the machine suitable for my specs. So
we contact Xerox they have us write a letter on why we would need to
do a reverse sale to break the contract. We even have thousands of
scraps and documention of machine failure. We print a discriptive
letter not like this one as you can see I'm not a good writer. It has
contact information the ten yards of all problems. So we fax it. One
week goes by and another and another, we call our person that is
handling our customer support, leave multiple messages never call back
for two months!!!!! And ask us to refax our statement cause no
customer number listed on it!!! We fax back right away with the our
customer number another and wait another month with messages we left
to call, but never returned phone calls! Then they call today saying
sales rejects reverse sale. I ask this woman why? She says sales says
the work centre pro meets our specs. I ask her did you talk with the
service techs out in Minnesota she does'nt know!! I said the machine
as been broken for months and can't fix, now what. She does'nt know! I
say would'nt it be better to break the contract then replace the
machine every two weeks or month and I can't afford the down times?
She says she will talk to some people.
I would be fine just to break the contract, I have gotten legal
advice and was told to tell them if they don't break contract we will
sue and that's what I have now said if they don't I will persue losses
for accounts and material losses. She said I will let them know.

You have the wrong equipment to do the tasks that you want to. This is what
happens when you skimp. Dont blame it on the sales force. You., and you
alone make the decision to purchase the product. No one held a gun to your
head.

Man, you have to research these things. Stop trying to blame others


"Taylor" wrote in message
om...
This is a long problem so I will be as brief as possible. I own a
large format printing company and we decide that we have a good market
to make gift cards and smaller prints to a number of our accounts. I
started with Phaser 860 to test market, we hand feeding a Wausau Exact
Indext 8".50x11" 110lb 200g/m. Then we would take the impression and
slit and fold with the Martin Yale 959. We wore out the head after
awile. So we thought its time to upgrade printers. We contacted Xerox
corporate sales explained exactly what our needs are and the paper
that I listed above Wausau 110lb. They checked everything out and we
would need to work with the DocuColor 2240 they stated. So then we did
extensive test at the Xerox in Bloomington Minnesota. They said the
specs of this machine fits our needs! So we did a five year lease and
a service contract. About after two months color hold of jobs got
really bad. When we ran a stock pile that we ran even a week ago the
hues would be so far out we were doing large percents of color
correcting like 50% multiple times. What printed befor blue was green
and yellow were orange. The service techs came out several times.
Never got any better just got worse. Then started fading overal tones
light tones completly washed out. I mean quality is very poor.
Calibrations did nothing. Service techs worked on this machine on and
off for months as I'm loosing accounts. So then Xerox decides that
they will swap out for the work centre pro 40 and tells me its print
enginge is completely different, but finding out later the same as the
2240. Runs good for three weeks color shifts during during runs of
stockpiles in the same run doesn't hold color at all! Tones are all
faded hues rocking back and forth a complete mess! Xerox service techs
are scratching there heads and work on this machine for about two
months!
Finaly the main Tech says he finds out that the Cover weight is making
a wear impression in the rollers and drum that he says is a dead end!
He says he can't do anything else and say he will comment to Xerox
that the amount of cover weight is to damaging to the rollors. Then he
tells me he has another account that is wearing these rollors out on
the machine every 20,000 impressions and that this machines seems to
be a dead end!!! I tell my dealer all this and they say I have to take
it up with Xerox cause they spec the machine suitable for my specs. So
we contact Xerox they have us write a letter on why we would need to
do a reverse sale to break the contract. We even have thousands of
scraps and documention of machine failure. We print a discriptive
letter not like this one as you can see I'm not a good writer. It has
contact information the ten yards of all problems. So we fax it. One
week goes by and another and another, we call our person that is
handling our customer support, leave multiple messages never call back
for two months!!!!! And ask us to refax our statement cause no
customer number listed on it!!! We fax back right away with the our
customer number another and wait another month with messages we left
to call, but never returned phone calls! Then they call today saying
sales rejects reverse sale. I ask this woman why? She says sales says
the work centre pro meets our specs. I ask her did you talk with the
service techs out in Minnesota she does'nt know!! I said the machine
as been broken for months and can't fix, now what. She does'nt know! I
say would'nt it be better to break the contract then replace the
machine every two weeks or month and I can't afford the down times?
She says she will talk to some people.
I would be fine just to break the contract, I have gotten legal
advice and was told to tell them if they don't break contract we will
sue and that's what I have now said if they don't I will persue losses
for accounts and material losses. She said I will let them know.

Steve the Printer wrote:

You have the wrong equipment to do the tasks that you want to. This is what
happens when you skimp. Dont blame it on the sales force. You., and you
alone make the decision to purchase the product. No one held a gun to your
head.

Man, you have to research these things. Stop trying to blame others

Bull malarkey.

The man says he went to Xerox and showed them what he was going to do
and they blessed it.

End of issue.

Yea I'm sure it happened that way.

I say he didnt tell Xerox what the capacity he needed and now hes up the
creek. No one to blame but himself..

Can't he read specs? The specs are SPECIFICATIONS

Cut corners, this is what happens

PERIOD


"Lee Blevins" wrote in message
news:1gb9rmo.1qb0dqq1y3o3lcN%leeb@digitalgraphics. net...
Steve the Printer wrote:

You have the wrong equipment to do the tasks that you want to. This is
what
happens when you skimp. Dont blame it on the sales force. You., and you
alone make the decision to purchase the product. No one held a gun to
your
head.

Man, you have to research these things. Stop trying to blame others

Bull malarkey.

The man says he went to Xerox and showed them what he was going to do
and they blessed it.

End of issue.

In article ,
"Steve the Printer" wrote:

Yea I'm sure it happened that way.

I say he didnt tell Xerox what the capacity he needed and now hes up the
creek. No one to blame but himself..

Can't he read specs? The specs are SPECIFICATIONS

Cut corners, this is what happens

PERIOD

The mistake he made was not making a performance parameter that he knew
in advance a written condition of the sales agreement.

It is not uncommon for performance near the specs to be exaggerated by
sales staff.

- Allen

Allen Wessels wrote:

The mistake he made was not making a performance parameter that he knew
in advance a written condition of the sales agreement.

It is not uncommon for performance near the specs to be exaggerated by
sales staff.

Oh, the old caveat emptor?

Or is it a case of misrepresentation?

Having dealt with Xerox I'm leaning heavily in the direction of
misrepresentation.

It's going to be hard for Xerox to claim they had no idea of the
intended use of the product. They had salesmen visit the customer AND
the customer is claiming they informed Xerox of the intended use.

Is their defense going to be "we have published specs and we never go
beyond that in asking what they intend to do with the product."

The specs would have to be pretty clear that the machine WOULD NOT print
on that paper in that run length. Show me the specs on this machine
where it says that clearly. I mean CLEARLY.

At any rate, the consumer almost always wins these cases because of the
old saying of "how do you know when a salesmen is lying?"

"When he's moving his lips."

This is not a consumer product sold off the shelf at Walmart. It
involves a sales cycle and a rep because it's a more complex transaction
than buying a bottle of hot sauce.

I'd certainly like to hear how it comes out.

"I'd certainly like to hear how it comes out."

Well, none of us would, so please communicate privately.

On 3/27/2004 3:40 AM Lee Blevins spake thus:

Allen Wessels wrote:

The mistake he made was not making a performance parameter that he knew
in advance a written condition of the sales agreement.

It is not uncommon for performance near the specs to be exaggerated by
sales staff.

Oh, the old caveat emptor?

Or is it a case of misrepresentation?

Having dealt with Xerox I'm leaning heavily in the direction of
misrepresentation.

[blah blah blah snipped]

Hey, you: this *definitely* doesn't belong in
rec.photo.equipment.large-format. Therefore, I'm redirecting this straight to
Hell.


--
.... but never have I encountered a guy who could not be bothered
to make his own case on his own show.

- Eric Alterman on his appearance on Dennis Miller's bomb of a show
on CNBC (3/17/04)