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Who's left in the E6 biz?



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 14th 04, 09:24 PM
Gregory Blank
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Posts: n/a
Default

In article . net,
Donald Qualls wrote:

Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

Gregory Blank schrieb:


Macochrome is Color, E6, Fomapan R is probably some kind of bw movie
stock and not available in sizes beyond 135.


This is confirmed, and further it cannot be developed to a negative in
conventional B&W processing due to a colloidal silver antihalation
layer. The only practical way I know of to get a negative from Fomapan
R is to develop in a color developer with the same black dye couplers
used in XP2 or BW400CN type C-41 B&W films, then bleach and fix as for
C-41. For B&W positives, of course, you use the regular first dev,
non-halogenating bleach, reversal exposure, second dev, fix process that
would produce a positive on any B&W material -- but the bleach step is
mandatory to remove the silver AH layer.

Anyway Fomapan R is cool stuff.



Indeed - good sharpness and grain, nice tone, and stunning latitude
for a slide film.


Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my
Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing
-- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain
would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain
soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol.


Or you could send it to Duggal in NYC I highly recommend them.

--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
  #12  
Old September 14th 04, 09:24 PM
Gregory Blank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article . net,
Donald Qualls wrote:

Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

Gregory Blank schrieb:


Macochrome is Color, E6, Fomapan R is probably some kind of bw movie
stock and not available in sizes beyond 135.


This is confirmed, and further it cannot be developed to a negative in
conventional B&W processing due to a colloidal silver antihalation
layer. The only practical way I know of to get a negative from Fomapan
R is to develop in a color developer with the same black dye couplers
used in XP2 or BW400CN type C-41 B&W films, then bleach and fix as for
C-41. For B&W positives, of course, you use the regular first dev,
non-halogenating bleach, reversal exposure, second dev, fix process that
would produce a positive on any B&W material -- but the bleach step is
mandatory to remove the silver AH layer.

Anyway Fomapan R is cool stuff.



Indeed - good sharpness and grain, nice tone, and stunning latitude
for a slide film.


Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my
Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing
-- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain
would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain
soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol.


Or you could send it to Duggal in NYC I highly recommend them.

--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
  #13  
Old September 15th 04, 02:18 AM
Donald Qualls
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gregory Blank wrote:
In article . net,
Donald Qualls wrote:

Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my
Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing
-- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain
would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain
soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol.



Or you could send it to Duggal in NYC I highly recommend them.


If I could afford to send it to Duggal, I'd just slit E-6 and have it
processed as ersatz 110 slides at a local lab. The point of Fomapan R
is that I can get 25 feet to try for only eight bucks (makes a dozen
rolls for my Minolta 16), and process it in chemicals I already have
with the sole addition of a bleach -- potassium dichromate isn't too
expensive in the quanitities needed, and sulfuric acid isn't too hard to
come by; copper sulphate is even cheaper; I could process the B&W slides
from Fomapan R for two bits a roll plus mounts.

Of course, I don't really have a use for slides anyway; I had originally
hoped it would be a nice, fine grained film I could develop as negatives
and buy already in 16 mm width. Since finding out about the silver AH
layer, I've set my sights on short rolls of Plus-X Negative and Tri-X
Reversal movie stock in either double 8 or 16 mm, still available from
Kodak.

--
I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
-- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

  #14  
Old September 15th 04, 02:18 AM
Donald Qualls
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gregory Blank wrote:
In article . net,
Donald Qualls wrote:

Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my
Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing
-- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain
would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain
soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol.



Or you could send it to Duggal in NYC I highly recommend them.


If I could afford to send it to Duggal, I'd just slit E-6 and have it
processed as ersatz 110 slides at a local lab. The point of Fomapan R
is that I can get 25 feet to try for only eight bucks (makes a dozen
rolls for my Minolta 16), and process it in chemicals I already have
with the sole addition of a bleach -- potassium dichromate isn't too
expensive in the quanitities needed, and sulfuric acid isn't too hard to
come by; copper sulphate is even cheaper; I could process the B&W slides
from Fomapan R for two bits a roll plus mounts.

Of course, I don't really have a use for slides anyway; I had originally
hoped it would be a nice, fine grained film I could develop as negatives
and buy already in 16 mm width. Since finding out about the silver AH
layer, I've set my sights on short rolls of Plus-X Negative and Tri-X
Reversal movie stock in either double 8 or 16 mm, still available from
Kodak.

--
I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
-- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

  #15  
Old September 16th 04, 12:53 AM
Robert Vervoordt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:03:53 GMT, Donald Qualls
wrote:

Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

Gregory Blank schrieb:


Macochrome is Color, E6, Fomapan R is probably some kind of bw movie
stock and not available in sizes beyond 135.


This is confirmed, and further it cannot be developed to a negative in
conventional B&W processing due to a colloidal silver antihalation
layer.


Both Color reversal and BW reversal first developers use a small
amount of a Silver solvent such as Thiocyanate to remove the very fine
particle silver in the AH layer. About one (1) gram should be enough.
If you make up your own solutions, try that out as a first test.

Look at the published formulae for first developers of reversal films,
both color and BW. That should be enough for someone as informed as
you have shown yourself to be.

The only practical way I know of to get a negative from Fomapan
R is to develop in a color developer with the same black dye couplers
used in XP2 or BW400CN type C-41 B&W films, then bleach and fix as for
C-41. For B&W positives, of course, you use the regular first dev,
non-halogenating bleach, reversal exposure, second dev, fix process that
would produce a positive on any B&W material -- but the bleach step is
mandatory to remove the silver AH layer.


Hmmm. Perhaps what I suggested, above, will work better and more
inexpensively.


Anyway Fomapan R is cool stuff.



Indeed - good sharpness and grain, nice tone, and stunning latitude
for a slide film.


Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my
Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing
-- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain
would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain
soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol.


I suggest you make up double strength batches of Diafine, as negatives
are developed to a lower Gamma than are reversal films. Diafine, as
it works for negatives, might be too weak. Again, note the use of
Thiocyantes in reversal first developers.

The second developer is usually not a critical item. All it has to do
is develop the remaining Silver, which is usually the slow, smallest
grains that are left in the emulsion after first development. They
don't clump as readily as the larger grains that get developed in the
first developer, and would be more easily and seriously affected by
solvents in any developer. The two you mentioned both have
significant solvent action, both from agents added and the high level
of Sulfite. Just use the formula given for second developer that is
published.

Heck, I knew one guy who opened some cans of Dektol and added
thiocyanate to the first developer and used the Dektol stright as his
second developer. He did this after testing to refine his procedures,
and I can't remeber what those refinements were, but I recall that it
wasn't much.

By the way, you'll lose speed on any reversal film developed as a
negative. It's the nature of the beasts. They are all based on
negative emulsions of about a stop and a half less speed rating. This
is largely due to the differences in their initial developers. Your
tests will show that to you.

In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your
results.

Looking forward to hearing of them.

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
  #16  
Old September 16th 04, 12:53 AM
Robert Vervoordt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:03:53 GMT, Donald Qualls
wrote:

Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

Gregory Blank schrieb:


Macochrome is Color, E6, Fomapan R is probably some kind of bw movie
stock and not available in sizes beyond 135.


This is confirmed, and further it cannot be developed to a negative in
conventional B&W processing due to a colloidal silver antihalation
layer.


Both Color reversal and BW reversal first developers use a small
amount of a Silver solvent such as Thiocyanate to remove the very fine
particle silver in the AH layer. About one (1) gram should be enough.
If you make up your own solutions, try that out as a first test.

Look at the published formulae for first developers of reversal films,
both color and BW. That should be enough for someone as informed as
you have shown yourself to be.

The only practical way I know of to get a negative from Fomapan
R is to develop in a color developer with the same black dye couplers
used in XP2 or BW400CN type C-41 B&W films, then bleach and fix as for
C-41. For B&W positives, of course, you use the regular first dev,
non-halogenating bleach, reversal exposure, second dev, fix process that
would produce a positive on any B&W material -- but the bleach step is
mandatory to remove the silver AH layer.


Hmmm. Perhaps what I suggested, above, will work better and more
inexpensively.


Anyway Fomapan R is cool stuff.



Indeed - good sharpness and grain, nice tone, and stunning latitude
for a slide film.


Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my
Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing
-- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain
would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain
soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol.


I suggest you make up double strength batches of Diafine, as negatives
are developed to a lower Gamma than are reversal films. Diafine, as
it works for negatives, might be too weak. Again, note the use of
Thiocyantes in reversal first developers.

The second developer is usually not a critical item. All it has to do
is develop the remaining Silver, which is usually the slow, smallest
grains that are left in the emulsion after first development. They
don't clump as readily as the larger grains that get developed in the
first developer, and would be more easily and seriously affected by
solvents in any developer. The two you mentioned both have
significant solvent action, both from agents added and the high level
of Sulfite. Just use the formula given for second developer that is
published.

Heck, I knew one guy who opened some cans of Dektol and added
thiocyanate to the first developer and used the Dektol stright as his
second developer. He did this after testing to refine his procedures,
and I can't remeber what those refinements were, but I recall that it
wasn't much.

By the way, you'll lose speed on any reversal film developed as a
negative. It's the nature of the beasts. They are all based on
negative emulsions of about a stop and a half less speed rating. This
is largely due to the differences in their initial developers. Your
tests will show that to you.

In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your
results.

Looking forward to hearing of them.

Robert Vervoordt, MFA
  #17  
Old September 16th 04, 04:33 PM
Donald Qualls
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Robert Vervoordt wrote:


In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your
results.


Thanks, I'll have to try a high-solvent developer for negatives once I
get a roll of the Fomapan R to test. All of this is stilling hanging
fire on finding a place to live (I'm currently in an extended stay hotel
after my move to North Carolina, and house hunting; that will be
followed by job hunting).

OTOH, if the stuff will lose a stop or more, it's not really an
improvement over the Copex Rapid I've been shooting in Minolta 16, since
it both requires a customized developer and comes in at EI 50 or slower;
I've been getting good results with the Copex Rapid at EI 100 in HC-110
Dilution G with low agitation.

The Fomapan R is probably best kept for its intended use as a reversal
film; I can see situations where reversal would be very useful, frex in
duplicating 35 mm negatives with a modified camera for contact exposure
or making positive masks in 35 mm.

FWIW, Foma's recommended process uses Fomadon (which seems to be a
generic MQ developer approximately similar to D-76) for both first and
second dev, and depends on the bleach step to remove the AH layer.

--
I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
-- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

  #18  
Old September 16th 04, 04:33 PM
Donald Qualls
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Robert Vervoordt wrote:


In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your
results.


Thanks, I'll have to try a high-solvent developer for negatives once I
get a roll of the Fomapan R to test. All of this is stilling hanging
fire on finding a place to live (I'm currently in an extended stay hotel
after my move to North Carolina, and house hunting; that will be
followed by job hunting).

OTOH, if the stuff will lose a stop or more, it's not really an
improvement over the Copex Rapid I've been shooting in Minolta 16, since
it both requires a customized developer and comes in at EI 50 or slower;
I've been getting good results with the Copex Rapid at EI 100 in HC-110
Dilution G with low agitation.

The Fomapan R is probably best kept for its intended use as a reversal
film; I can see situations where reversal would be very useful, frex in
duplicating 35 mm negatives with a modified camera for contact exposure
or making positive masks in 35 mm.

FWIW, Foma's recommended process uses Fomadon (which seems to be a
generic MQ developer approximately similar to D-76) for both first and
second dev, and depends on the bleach step to remove the AH layer.

--
I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
-- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

  #19  
Old September 17th 04, 06:38 AM
Robert Vervoordt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:33:26 GMT, Donald Qualls
wrote:

Robert Vervoordt wrote:


In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your
results.


Thanks, I'll have to try a high-solvent developer for negatives once I
get a roll of the Fomapan R to test.


Remember, the Silver solvent used for the finely formed anti-halo
layer in reversal processes is usually a Thiocyante or some other,
proprietary, item. These are very powerful. and are not usually
equalled by high Sulfite formulations. I know this from experiments
with D-76, even using up to 180 grams in the first developer. I had
to add Thiocyanate to get control over the AH layer. When you do
experiment, look into the use of small additions of Iodide to the
first developer to keep the solvent from aggressively attacking the
upper layers of the emulsion, itself. If uncontrolled, the results
will be Blueish, tending toward Cyan, or even Green, if it is very
severe. The Iodide will retard the stronger Thiocyanate's action,
working from the topmost layer downward. It warms things up, but
requires initial testing to nail the right amounts for your process,
if you are compounding, or using some unusual emulsion. This was
patented by Ansco a long tome ago and seems to have been adopted by
all other E6 manufacturers, subsequently. Look into the literature,
it should be clear. This is a consideration for color reversal, not
monochrome.

All of this is stilling hanging
fire on finding a place to live (I'm currently in an extended stay hotel
after my move to North Carolina, and house hunting; that will be
followed by job hunting).


Hmm I'm in pretty much the same situation.


OTOH, if the stuff will lose a stop or more, it's not really an
improvement over the Copex Rapid I've been shooting in Minolta 16, since
it both requires a customized developer and comes in at EI 50 or slower;
I've been getting good results with the Copex Rapid at EI 100 in HC-110
Dilution G with low agitation.


Then that may well be the best choice for your needs.

The Fomapan R is probably best kept for its intended use as a reversal
film; I can see situations where reversal would be very useful, frex in
duplicating 35 mm negatives with a modified camera for contact exposure
or making positive masks in 35 mm.


Things do get complicated when we are using a film for more than one
application, but using one film cuts out a number of other issues as
well as cost. Yuu know your needs better than anyone. Your
experiments should provide some new aspects for many of us; me, for
sure.

FWIW, Foma's recommended process uses Fomadon (which seems to be a
generic MQ developer approximately similar to D-76) for both first and
second dev, and depends on the bleach step to remove the AH layer.


That's a bit different from the usual procedure. Most reversal
processes use a vigorous first developer and impart a speed and
contrast boost to the usual negative emulsion used as a basis. The
image is formed from the remaining Silver left after first development
and as a result, there is a net gain in the ratio of speed to
graininess, while the contrast is elevated to a level suitable for
projection viewing. It's one of those win-win situations we rarely
get to enjoy.

Good souping!



Robert Vervoordt, MFA
  #20  
Old September 17th 04, 06:38 AM
Robert Vervoordt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:33:26 GMT, Donald Qualls
wrote:

Robert Vervoordt wrote:


In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your
results.


Thanks, I'll have to try a high-solvent developer for negatives once I
get a roll of the Fomapan R to test.


Remember, the Silver solvent used for the finely formed anti-halo
layer in reversal processes is usually a Thiocyante or some other,
proprietary, item. These are very powerful. and are not usually
equalled by high Sulfite formulations. I know this from experiments
with D-76, even using up to 180 grams in the first developer. I had
to add Thiocyanate to get control over the AH layer. When you do
experiment, look into the use of small additions of Iodide to the
first developer to keep the solvent from aggressively attacking the
upper layers of the emulsion, itself. If uncontrolled, the results
will be Blueish, tending toward Cyan, or even Green, if it is very
severe. The Iodide will retard the stronger Thiocyanate's action,
working from the topmost layer downward. It warms things up, but
requires initial testing to nail the right amounts for your process,
if you are compounding, or using some unusual emulsion. This was
patented by Ansco a long tome ago and seems to have been adopted by
all other E6 manufacturers, subsequently. Look into the literature,
it should be clear. This is a consideration for color reversal, not
monochrome.

All of this is stilling hanging
fire on finding a place to live (I'm currently in an extended stay hotel
after my move to North Carolina, and house hunting; that will be
followed by job hunting).


Hmm I'm in pretty much the same situation.


OTOH, if the stuff will lose a stop or more, it's not really an
improvement over the Copex Rapid I've been shooting in Minolta 16, since
it both requires a customized developer and comes in at EI 50 or slower;
I've been getting good results with the Copex Rapid at EI 100 in HC-110
Dilution G with low agitation.


Then that may well be the best choice for your needs.

The Fomapan R is probably best kept for its intended use as a reversal
film; I can see situations where reversal would be very useful, frex in
duplicating 35 mm negatives with a modified camera for contact exposure
or making positive masks in 35 mm.


Things do get complicated when we are using a film for more than one
application, but using one film cuts out a number of other issues as
well as cost. Yuu know your needs better than anyone. Your
experiments should provide some new aspects for many of us; me, for
sure.

FWIW, Foma's recommended process uses Fomadon (which seems to be a
generic MQ developer approximately similar to D-76) for both first and
second dev, and depends on the bleach step to remove the AH layer.


That's a bit different from the usual procedure. Most reversal
processes use a vigorous first developer and impart a speed and
contrast boost to the usual negative emulsion used as a basis. The
image is formed from the remaining Silver left after first development
and as a result, there is a net gain in the ratio of speed to
graininess, while the contrast is elevated to a level suitable for
projection viewing. It's one of those win-win situations we rarely
get to enjoy.

Good souping!



Robert Vervoordt, MFA
 




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