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#11
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In article . net,
Donald Qualls wrote: Roman J. Rohleder wrote: Gregory Blank schrieb: Macochrome is Color, E6, Fomapan R is probably some kind of bw movie stock and not available in sizes beyond 135. This is confirmed, and further it cannot be developed to a negative in conventional B&W processing due to a colloidal silver antihalation layer. The only practical way I know of to get a negative from Fomapan R is to develop in a color developer with the same black dye couplers used in XP2 or BW400CN type C-41 B&W films, then bleach and fix as for C-41. For B&W positives, of course, you use the regular first dev, non-halogenating bleach, reversal exposure, second dev, fix process that would produce a positive on any B&W material -- but the bleach step is mandatory to remove the silver AH layer. Anyway Fomapan R is cool stuff. Indeed - good sharpness and grain, nice tone, and stunning latitude for a slide film. Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing -- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol. Or you could send it to Duggal in NYC I highly recommend them. -- LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 |
#12
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In article . net,
Donald Qualls wrote: Roman J. Rohleder wrote: Gregory Blank schrieb: Macochrome is Color, E6, Fomapan R is probably some kind of bw movie stock and not available in sizes beyond 135. This is confirmed, and further it cannot be developed to a negative in conventional B&W processing due to a colloidal silver antihalation layer. The only practical way I know of to get a negative from Fomapan R is to develop in a color developer with the same black dye couplers used in XP2 or BW400CN type C-41 B&W films, then bleach and fix as for C-41. For B&W positives, of course, you use the regular first dev, non-halogenating bleach, reversal exposure, second dev, fix process that would produce a positive on any B&W material -- but the bleach step is mandatory to remove the silver AH layer. Anyway Fomapan R is cool stuff. Indeed - good sharpness and grain, nice tone, and stunning latitude for a slide film. Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing -- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol. Or you could send it to Duggal in NYC I highly recommend them. -- LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918 |
#13
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Gregory Blank wrote:
In article . net, Donald Qualls wrote: Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing -- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol. Or you could send it to Duggal in NYC I highly recommend them. If I could afford to send it to Duggal, I'd just slit E-6 and have it processed as ersatz 110 slides at a local lab. The point of Fomapan R is that I can get 25 feet to try for only eight bucks (makes a dozen rolls for my Minolta 16), and process it in chemicals I already have with the sole addition of a bleach -- potassium dichromate isn't too expensive in the quanitities needed, and sulfuric acid isn't too hard to come by; copper sulphate is even cheaper; I could process the B&W slides from Fomapan R for two bits a roll plus mounts. Of course, I don't really have a use for slides anyway; I had originally hoped it would be a nice, fine grained film I could develop as negatives and buy already in 16 mm width. Since finding out about the silver AH layer, I've set my sights on short rolls of Plus-X Negative and Tri-X Reversal movie stock in either double 8 or 16 mm, still available from Kodak. -- I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954 Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect. |
#14
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Gregory Blank wrote:
In article . net, Donald Qualls wrote: Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing -- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol. Or you could send it to Duggal in NYC I highly recommend them. If I could afford to send it to Duggal, I'd just slit E-6 and have it processed as ersatz 110 slides at a local lab. The point of Fomapan R is that I can get 25 feet to try for only eight bucks (makes a dozen rolls for my Minolta 16), and process it in chemicals I already have with the sole addition of a bleach -- potassium dichromate isn't too expensive in the quanitities needed, and sulfuric acid isn't too hard to come by; copper sulphate is even cheaper; I could process the B&W slides from Fomapan R for two bits a roll plus mounts. Of course, I don't really have a use for slides anyway; I had originally hoped it would be a nice, fine grained film I could develop as negatives and buy already in 16 mm width. Since finding out about the silver AH layer, I've set my sights on short rolls of Plus-X Negative and Tri-X Reversal movie stock in either double 8 or 16 mm, still available from Kodak. -- I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954 Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect. |
#15
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:03:53 GMT, Donald Qualls
wrote: Roman J. Rohleder wrote: Gregory Blank schrieb: Macochrome is Color, E6, Fomapan R is probably some kind of bw movie stock and not available in sizes beyond 135. This is confirmed, and further it cannot be developed to a negative in conventional B&W processing due to a colloidal silver antihalation layer. Both Color reversal and BW reversal first developers use a small amount of a Silver solvent such as Thiocyanate to remove the very fine particle silver in the AH layer. About one (1) gram should be enough. If you make up your own solutions, try that out as a first test. Look at the published formulae for first developers of reversal films, both color and BW. That should be enough for someone as informed as you have shown yourself to be. The only practical way I know of to get a negative from Fomapan R is to develop in a color developer with the same black dye couplers used in XP2 or BW400CN type C-41 B&W films, then bleach and fix as for C-41. For B&W positives, of course, you use the regular first dev, non-halogenating bleach, reversal exposure, second dev, fix process that would produce a positive on any B&W material -- but the bleach step is mandatory to remove the silver AH layer. Hmmm. Perhaps what I suggested, above, will work better and more inexpensively. Anyway Fomapan R is cool stuff. Indeed - good sharpness and grain, nice tone, and stunning latitude for a slide film. Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing -- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol. I suggest you make up double strength batches of Diafine, as negatives are developed to a lower Gamma than are reversal films. Diafine, as it works for negatives, might be too weak. Again, note the use of Thiocyantes in reversal first developers. The second developer is usually not a critical item. All it has to do is develop the remaining Silver, which is usually the slow, smallest grains that are left in the emulsion after first development. They don't clump as readily as the larger grains that get developed in the first developer, and would be more easily and seriously affected by solvents in any developer. The two you mentioned both have significant solvent action, both from agents added and the high level of Sulfite. Just use the formula given for second developer that is published. Heck, I knew one guy who opened some cans of Dektol and added thiocyanate to the first developer and used the Dektol stright as his second developer. He did this after testing to refine his procedures, and I can't remeber what those refinements were, but I recall that it wasn't much. By the way, you'll lose speed on any reversal film developed as a negative. It's the nature of the beasts. They are all based on negative emulsions of about a stop and a half less speed rating. This is largely due to the differences in their initial developers. Your tests will show that to you. In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your results. Looking forward to hearing of them. Robert Vervoordt, MFA |
#16
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:03:53 GMT, Donald Qualls
wrote: Roman J. Rohleder wrote: Gregory Blank schrieb: Macochrome is Color, E6, Fomapan R is probably some kind of bw movie stock and not available in sizes beyond 135. This is confirmed, and further it cannot be developed to a negative in conventional B&W processing due to a colloidal silver antihalation layer. Both Color reversal and BW reversal first developers use a small amount of a Silver solvent such as Thiocyanate to remove the very fine particle silver in the AH layer. About one (1) gram should be enough. If you make up your own solutions, try that out as a first test. Look at the published formulae for first developers of reversal films, both color and BW. That should be enough for someone as informed as you have shown yourself to be. The only practical way I know of to get a negative from Fomapan R is to develop in a color developer with the same black dye couplers used in XP2 or BW400CN type C-41 B&W films, then bleach and fix as for C-41. For B&W positives, of course, you use the regular first dev, non-halogenating bleach, reversal exposure, second dev, fix process that would produce a positive on any B&W material -- but the bleach step is mandatory to remove the silver AH layer. Hmmm. Perhaps what I suggested, above, will work better and more inexpensively. Anyway Fomapan R is cool stuff. Indeed - good sharpness and grain, nice tone, and stunning latitude for a slide film. Never tried it, but I might have to get a short roll and try it in my Minolta 16 cameras once I have the resources to do reversal processing -- using Diafine for a first dev should give EI 160 to 200, and grain would be determined by the second dev, which could be a super-fine grain soup like Microdol-X or Ilfosol. I suggest you make up double strength batches of Diafine, as negatives are developed to a lower Gamma than are reversal films. Diafine, as it works for negatives, might be too weak. Again, note the use of Thiocyantes in reversal first developers. The second developer is usually not a critical item. All it has to do is develop the remaining Silver, which is usually the slow, smallest grains that are left in the emulsion after first development. They don't clump as readily as the larger grains that get developed in the first developer, and would be more easily and seriously affected by solvents in any developer. The two you mentioned both have significant solvent action, both from agents added and the high level of Sulfite. Just use the formula given for second developer that is published. Heck, I knew one guy who opened some cans of Dektol and added thiocyanate to the first developer and used the Dektol stright as his second developer. He did this after testing to refine his procedures, and I can't remeber what those refinements were, but I recall that it wasn't much. By the way, you'll lose speed on any reversal film developed as a negative. It's the nature of the beasts. They are all based on negative emulsions of about a stop and a half less speed rating. This is largely due to the differences in their initial developers. Your tests will show that to you. In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your results. Looking forward to hearing of them. Robert Vervoordt, MFA |
#17
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Robert Vervoordt wrote:
In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your results. Thanks, I'll have to try a high-solvent developer for negatives once I get a roll of the Fomapan R to test. All of this is stilling hanging fire on finding a place to live (I'm currently in an extended stay hotel after my move to North Carolina, and house hunting; that will be followed by job hunting). OTOH, if the stuff will lose a stop or more, it's not really an improvement over the Copex Rapid I've been shooting in Minolta 16, since it both requires a customized developer and comes in at EI 50 or slower; I've been getting good results with the Copex Rapid at EI 100 in HC-110 Dilution G with low agitation. The Fomapan R is probably best kept for its intended use as a reversal film; I can see situations where reversal would be very useful, frex in duplicating 35 mm negatives with a modified camera for contact exposure or making positive masks in 35 mm. FWIW, Foma's recommended process uses Fomadon (which seems to be a generic MQ developer approximately similar to D-76) for both first and second dev, and depends on the bleach step to remove the AH layer. -- I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954 Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect. |
#18
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Robert Vervoordt wrote:
In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your results. Thanks, I'll have to try a high-solvent developer for negatives once I get a roll of the Fomapan R to test. All of this is stilling hanging fire on finding a place to live (I'm currently in an extended stay hotel after my move to North Carolina, and house hunting; that will be followed by job hunting). OTOH, if the stuff will lose a stop or more, it's not really an improvement over the Copex Rapid I've been shooting in Minolta 16, since it both requires a customized developer and comes in at EI 50 or slower; I've been getting good results with the Copex Rapid at EI 100 in HC-110 Dilution G with low agitation. The Fomapan R is probably best kept for its intended use as a reversal film; I can see situations where reversal would be very useful, frex in duplicating 35 mm negatives with a modified camera for contact exposure or making positive masks in 35 mm. FWIW, Foma's recommended process uses Fomadon (which seems to be a generic MQ developer approximately similar to D-76) for both first and second dev, and depends on the bleach step to remove the AH layer. -- I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954 Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect. |
#19
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:33:26 GMT, Donald Qualls
wrote: Robert Vervoordt wrote: In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your results. Thanks, I'll have to try a high-solvent developer for negatives once I get a roll of the Fomapan R to test. Remember, the Silver solvent used for the finely formed anti-halo layer in reversal processes is usually a Thiocyante or some other, proprietary, item. These are very powerful. and are not usually equalled by high Sulfite formulations. I know this from experiments with D-76, even using up to 180 grams in the first developer. I had to add Thiocyanate to get control over the AH layer. When you do experiment, look into the use of small additions of Iodide to the first developer to keep the solvent from aggressively attacking the upper layers of the emulsion, itself. If uncontrolled, the results will be Blueish, tending toward Cyan, or even Green, if it is very severe. The Iodide will retard the stronger Thiocyanate's action, working from the topmost layer downward. It warms things up, but requires initial testing to nail the right amounts for your process, if you are compounding, or using some unusual emulsion. This was patented by Ansco a long tome ago and seems to have been adopted by all other E6 manufacturers, subsequently. Look into the literature, it should be clear. This is a consideration for color reversal, not monochrome. All of this is stilling hanging fire on finding a place to live (I'm currently in an extended stay hotel after my move to North Carolina, and house hunting; that will be followed by job hunting). Hmm I'm in pretty much the same situation. OTOH, if the stuff will lose a stop or more, it's not really an improvement over the Copex Rapid I've been shooting in Minolta 16, since it both requires a customized developer and comes in at EI 50 or slower; I've been getting good results with the Copex Rapid at EI 100 in HC-110 Dilution G with low agitation. Then that may well be the best choice for your needs. The Fomapan R is probably best kept for its intended use as a reversal film; I can see situations where reversal would be very useful, frex in duplicating 35 mm negatives with a modified camera for contact exposure or making positive masks in 35 mm. Things do get complicated when we are using a film for more than one application, but using one film cuts out a number of other issues as well as cost. Yuu know your needs better than anyone. Your experiments should provide some new aspects for many of us; me, for sure. FWIW, Foma's recommended process uses Fomadon (which seems to be a generic MQ developer approximately similar to D-76) for both first and second dev, and depends on the bleach step to remove the AH layer. That's a bit different from the usual procedure. Most reversal processes use a vigorous first developer and impart a speed and contrast boost to the usual negative emulsion used as a basis. The image is formed from the remaining Silver left after first development and as a result, there is a net gain in the ratio of speed to graininess, while the contrast is elevated to a level suitable for projection viewing. It's one of those win-win situations we rarely get to enjoy. Good souping! Robert Vervoordt, MFA |
#20
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:33:26 GMT, Donald Qualls
wrote: Robert Vervoordt wrote: In any event, your ideas are interesting, and so should be your results. Thanks, I'll have to try a high-solvent developer for negatives once I get a roll of the Fomapan R to test. Remember, the Silver solvent used for the finely formed anti-halo layer in reversal processes is usually a Thiocyante or some other, proprietary, item. These are very powerful. and are not usually equalled by high Sulfite formulations. I know this from experiments with D-76, even using up to 180 grams in the first developer. I had to add Thiocyanate to get control over the AH layer. When you do experiment, look into the use of small additions of Iodide to the first developer to keep the solvent from aggressively attacking the upper layers of the emulsion, itself. If uncontrolled, the results will be Blueish, tending toward Cyan, or even Green, if it is very severe. The Iodide will retard the stronger Thiocyanate's action, working from the topmost layer downward. It warms things up, but requires initial testing to nail the right amounts for your process, if you are compounding, or using some unusual emulsion. This was patented by Ansco a long tome ago and seems to have been adopted by all other E6 manufacturers, subsequently. Look into the literature, it should be clear. This is a consideration for color reversal, not monochrome. All of this is stilling hanging fire on finding a place to live (I'm currently in an extended stay hotel after my move to North Carolina, and house hunting; that will be followed by job hunting). Hmm I'm in pretty much the same situation. OTOH, if the stuff will lose a stop or more, it's not really an improvement over the Copex Rapid I've been shooting in Minolta 16, since it both requires a customized developer and comes in at EI 50 or slower; I've been getting good results with the Copex Rapid at EI 100 in HC-110 Dilution G with low agitation. Then that may well be the best choice for your needs. The Fomapan R is probably best kept for its intended use as a reversal film; I can see situations where reversal would be very useful, frex in duplicating 35 mm negatives with a modified camera for contact exposure or making positive masks in 35 mm. Things do get complicated when we are using a film for more than one application, but using one film cuts out a number of other issues as well as cost. Yuu know your needs better than anyone. Your experiments should provide some new aspects for many of us; me, for sure. FWIW, Foma's recommended process uses Fomadon (which seems to be a generic MQ developer approximately similar to D-76) for both first and second dev, and depends on the bleach step to remove the AH layer. That's a bit different from the usual procedure. Most reversal processes use a vigorous first developer and impart a speed and contrast boost to the usual negative emulsion used as a basis. The image is formed from the remaining Silver left after first development and as a result, there is a net gain in the ratio of speed to graininess, while the contrast is elevated to a level suitable for projection viewing. It's one of those win-win situations we rarely get to enjoy. Good souping! Robert Vervoordt, MFA |
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