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Wanted: high-ISO digicam



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 2nd 05, 06:19 PM
Bill Tuthill
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Default Wanted: high-ISO digicam

The search tools at Dpreview.com or Steves-Digicams or Imaging-Resource
aren't helping me find an appropriate camera.

I want something to replace a film P&S camera loaded with 800 speed film
that can be used in dark canyons to record sports action (kayaking).

Although the Canon CMOS models and Sony-CCD-based DSLRs (Nikon Pentax K-M)
produce excellent results at ISO 1600 and good results up to ISO 6400,
I have not found a compact digicam model that is much good above ISO 200.
Even the $1800 Leica Digilux 2 is visibly soft at ISO 400 (calling it a
"compact" would be a misnomer however).

Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces even
remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600? I'm tired of blurry pictures
from camera shake and subject movement.

  #2  
Old February 2nd 05, 07:06 PM
David J Taylor
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Default

Bill Tuthill wrote:
[]
Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces even
remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600? I'm tired of blurry
pictures from camera shake and subject movement.


For the highest sensitivity, you need the largest area sensor, which means
a DSLR, and a fast lens helps, of course. You can set higher ISOs on
compact cameras, but likely you will need a noise reduction program to get
acceptable results. Of course, you could always take the (today
unfashionable) that noise adds character to the image....

Cheers,
David


  #3  
Old February 2nd 05, 09:35 PM
Eatmorepies
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ...
The search tools at Dpreview.com or Steves-Digicams or Imaging-Resource
aren't helping me find an appropriate camera.

I want something to replace a film P&S camera loaded with 800 speed film
that can be used in dark canyons to record sports action (kayaking).

Although the Canon CMOS models and Sony-CCD-based DSLRs (Nikon Pentax K-M)
produce excellent results at ISO 1600 and good results up to ISO 6400,
I have not found a compact digicam model that is much good above ISO 200.
Even the $1800 Leica Digilux 2 is visibly soft at ISO 400 (calling it a
"compact" would be a misnomer however).

Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces even
remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600? I'm tired of blurry pictures
from camera shake and subject movement.


I can't help, but it's what I'm waiting for. Something instinctive tells me
that electronic sensors that are very sensitive could be devised - without
the cooling needed for sensors used in astronomy. Now that digital cameras
are in the development stage that computers were a few years ago I have a
child like faith that technology will overtake current limitations and
supply me with a 3200 ISO camera that is as noise free as my G5 is on 50
ISO.

John


  #4  
Old February 2nd 05, 10:04 PM
Dutch Flyer
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message ...
The search tools at Dpreview.com or Steves-Digicams or Imaging-Resource
aren't helping me find an appropriate camera.

I want something to replace a film P&S camera loaded with 800 speed film
that can be used in dark canyons to record sports action (kayaking).

Although the Canon CMOS models and Sony-CCD-based DSLRs (Nikon Pentax K-M)
produce excellent results at ISO 1600 and good results up to ISO 6400,
I have not found a compact digicam model that is much good above ISO 200.
Even the $1800 Leica Digilux 2 is visibly soft at ISO 400 (calling it a
"compact" would be a misnomer however).

Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces even
remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600?


There isn't, as all of them use relatively small sensors = high noise at
high ISO.


  #5  
Old February 2nd 05, 10:10 PM
Dutch Flyer
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Eatmorepies" wrote in message
...

"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message
...
The search tools at Dpreview.com or Steves-Digicams or Imaging-Resource
aren't helping me find an appropriate camera.

I want something to replace a film P&S camera loaded with 800 speed film
that can be used in dark canyons to record sports action (kayaking).

Although the Canon CMOS models and Sony-CCD-based DSLRs (Nikon Pentax
K-M)
produce excellent results at ISO 1600 and good results up to ISO 6400,
I have not found a compact digicam model that is much good above ISO 200.
Even the $1800 Leica Digilux 2 is visibly soft at ISO 400 (calling it a
"compact" would be a misnomer however).

Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces even
remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600? I'm tired of blurry
pictures
from camera shake and subject movement.


I can't help, but it's what I'm waiting for. Something instinctive tells
me
that electronic sensors that are very sensitive could be devised - without
the cooling needed for sensors used in astronomy. Now that digital cameras
are in the development stage that computers were a few years ago I have a
child like faith that technology will overtake current limitations and
supply me with a 3200 ISO camera that is as noise free as my G5 is on 50
ISO.


Sensors (CCD/CMOS) used in cameras today are nothing new, in fact they are
more mature technology then PC computers.
Don't hold our breath for "noise free" P&S digicams because it just won't
happen
anytime soon.


  #6  
Old February 2nd 05, 11:00 PM
Scharf-DCA
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bill Tuthill wrote:

Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces

even
remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600? I'm tired of blurry

pictures
from camera shake and subject movement.


I think that eventually Canon will put its low noise CMOS sensors into
a non-SLR. They may be capacity constrained on the CMOS sensors due to
the popularity of the 300D, 10D, and 20D. It'd be cool to have a
G6-like camera with a low noise CMOS sensor, rather than a CCD.

  #7  
Old February 2nd 05, 11:37 PM
Dutch Flyer
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Scharf-DCA" wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Tuthill wrote:

Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces

even
remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600? I'm tired of blurry

pictures
from camera shake and subject movement.


I think that eventually Canon will put its low noise CMOS sensors into
a non-SLR. They may be capacity constrained on the CMOS sensors due to
the popularity of the 300D, 10D, and 20D. It'd be cool to have a
G6-like camera with a low noise CMOS sensor, rather than a CCD.


Canon's 1.6x crop factor DSRL sensors would require
a huge lens in order to cover te usual P&S ~28-150mm range.
This would automatically eliminate any advantage (ie. portability)
that such cameras may have over DSLR.
Without going into the details, a bigger sensor will require a (much) bigger
lens,
this is the reason why noone has and never will put a DSLR sized sensor
in a P&S. Otherwise, Sony who produces DSLR sensors would have
done it a long time ago since they don't have a DSLR line anyway.


  #8  
Old February 3rd 05, 12:01 AM
Jan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dutch Flyer wrote:
"Scharf-DCA" wrote in message
ups.com...

Bill Tuthill wrote:


Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces


even

remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600? I'm tired of blurry


pictures

from camera shake and subject movement.


I think that eventually Canon will put its low noise CMOS sensors into
a non-SLR. They may be capacity constrained on the CMOS sensors due to
the popularity of the 300D, 10D, and 20D. It'd be cool to have a
G6-like camera with a low noise CMOS sensor, rather than a CCD.



Canon's 1.6x crop factor DSRL sensors would require
a huge lens in order to cover te usual P&S ~28-150mm range.
This would automatically eliminate any advantage (ie. portability)
that such cameras may have over DSLR.
Without going into the details, a bigger sensor will require a (much) bigger
lens,
this is the reason why noone has and never will put a DSLR sized sensor
in a P&S. Otherwise, Sony who produces DSLR sensors would have
done it a long time ago since they don't have a DSLR line anyway.


The D100 goes up to 6400 (i.e, HI-2). Quality of the results is a
personal thing ...

Jan
  #9  
Old February 3rd 05, 01:44 AM
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bill Tuthill wrote:
The search tools at Dpreview.com or Steves-Digicams or Imaging-Resource
aren't helping me find an appropriate camera.

I want something to replace a film P&S camera loaded with 800 speed film
that can be used in dark canyons to record sports action (kayaking).

Although the Canon CMOS models and Sony-CCD-based DSLRs (Nikon Pentax K-M)
produce excellent results at ISO 1600 and good results up to ISO 6400,
I have not found a compact digicam model that is much good above ISO 200.
Even the $1800 Leica Digilux 2 is visibly soft at ISO 400 (calling it a
"compact" would be a misnomer however).

Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces even
remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600? I'm tired of blurry pictures
from camera shake and subject movement.


The responses so far are an indicator of the state of
the technology, but hoping better will be hoping for
a break in the laws of physics. The high noise on small
sensors is due to photon counting statistics. The small
sensors are dominated by low numbers of photons being collected,
factors of 10 in comparison to DSLRs at the same ISO.
The only way to change that is to get larger sensors
into the P&S cameras, which will probably happen, but slowly.

See:
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail

and in particular:
http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/d...ignal.to.noise

I'm putting together a page that compares DSLR versus P&S,
example on jpeg versus tif; I'll use data on this page
for a comparison of the 3 cameras:
http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.versus.jpeg1

Pixel size is everything when it comes to signal-to-noise.

Roger

  #10  
Old February 3rd 05, 02:21 AM
Mark B.
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Scharf-DCA" wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Tuthill wrote:

Am I missing something? Is there a compact digicam that produces

even
remotely acceptable results at ISO 800-1600? I'm tired of blurry

pictures
from camera shake and subject movement.


I think that eventually Canon will put its low noise CMOS sensors into
a non-SLR. They may be capacity constrained on the CMOS sensors due to
the popularity of the 300D, 10D, and 20D. It'd be cool to have a
G6-like camera with a low noise CMOS sensor, rather than a CCD.


The cost would approach that of a DSLR body; the larger sensor would still
require better electronics and larger lenses to cover the sensor area. Not
gonna happen soon, if at all.

Mark


 




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