Very Low Temperature Photography

I was doing a little more pondering about the thread about photography using
telescopes. As most of us know, proper astronomical CCD's are chilled with
liquid nitrogen to reduce the amount of noise when taking long exposure
shots. Also, most of us know that film keeps better if it is stored at a low
temperature. So I was wondering if anyone knows if film's photographic
capabilities are altered depending on the temperature the film is exposed
at. Obviously one wouldn't freeze film with liquid nitrogen to take photos -
winding it on would be a real bitch, but since it doesn't get real cold in
my part of the world, I was wondering if anyone has experience with how film
reacts if it is exposed at say 0C (32F) or even lower, compared to say
20C(~70F)
--
-------------------------------------
Australia: Love it, or leave it!

Justin Thyme wrote:
I was doing a little more pondering about the thread about photography
using
telescopes. As most of us know, proper astronomical CCD's are chilled with
liquid nitrogen to reduce the amount of noise when taking long exposure
shots. Also, most of us know that film keeps better if it is stored at a
low
temperature. So I was wondering if anyone knows if film's photographic
capabilities are altered depending on the temperature the film is exposed
at. Obviously one wouldn't freeze film with liquid nitrogen to take
photos -
winding it on would be a real bitch, but since it doesn't get real cold in
my part of the world, I was wondering if anyone has experience with how
film
reacts if it is exposed at say 0C (32F) or even lower, compared to say
20C(~70F)

As I recall film looses some sensitivity when very cold, but not enough
to notice.

On the other hand a pre-exposure flash of light, can increase it's
sensitivity.


--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Justin Thyme wrote:
I was doing a little more pondering about the thread about photography
using
telescopes. As most of us know, proper astronomical CCD's are chilled with
liquid nitrogen to reduce the amount of noise when taking long exposure
shots. Also, most of us know that film keeps better if it is stored at a
low
temperature. So I was wondering if anyone knows if film's photographic
capabilities are altered depending on the temperature the film is exposed
at. Obviously one wouldn't freeze film with liquid nitrogen to take
photos -
winding it on would be a real bitch, but since it doesn't get real cold in
my part of the world, I was wondering if anyone has experience with how
film
reacts if it is exposed at say 0C (32F) or even lower, compared to say
20C(~70F)

As I recall film looses some sensitivity when very cold, but not enough
to notice.

On the other hand a pre-exposure flash of light, can increase it's
sensitivity.


--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

In article , Justin Thyme
writes
I was doing a little more pondering about the thread about photography using
telescopes. As most of us know, proper astronomical CCD's are chilled with
liquid nitrogen to reduce the amount of noise when taking long exposure
shots. Also, most of us know that film keeps better if it is stored at a low
temperature. So I was wondering if anyone knows if film's photographic
capabilities are altered depending on the temperature the film is exposed
at. Obviously one wouldn't freeze film with liquid nitrogen to take photos -
winding it on would be a real bitch, but since it doesn't get real cold in
my part of the world, I was wondering if anyone has experience with how film
reacts if it is exposed at say 0C (32F) or even lower, compared to say
20C(~70F)

Without having access to research data*, one can only speculate.
However, using well-accepted laws of physics, one can say: (1) for
certain, the film will attract condensation, which will result in the
photos being terribly fogged to the point of being unable to distinguish
much; (2) the film base will become more brittle and likely to break in
transport through the camera.

It is quite conceivable that a moisture-tight chamber could be designed,
and the film transport issue solved; however, the result would probably
be very cumbersome.

*The photochemistry of film exposure involves migration of Ag atom
nucleation sites to form aggregates of (IIRC) 4-6 atoms - without this
aggregation, single Ag atoms will not form stable nuclei for
development. The effect of temperature on this is something I would find
hard to predict - it would likely be severe at liquid N2 temperatures,
but relatively insignificant at 0 degrees C.

David
--
David Littlewood

In article , Justin Thyme
writes
I was doing a little more pondering about the thread about photography using
telescopes. As most of us know, proper astronomical CCD's are chilled with
liquid nitrogen to reduce the amount of noise when taking long exposure
shots. Also, most of us know that film keeps better if it is stored at a low
temperature. So I was wondering if anyone knows if film's photographic
capabilities are altered depending on the temperature the film is exposed
at. Obviously one wouldn't freeze film with liquid nitrogen to take photos -
winding it on would be a real bitch, but since it doesn't get real cold in
my part of the world, I was wondering if anyone has experience with how film
reacts if it is exposed at say 0C (32F) or even lower, compared to say
20C(~70F)

Without having access to research data*, one can only speculate.
However, using well-accepted laws of physics, one can say: (1) for
certain, the film will attract condensation, which will result in the
photos being terribly fogged to the point of being unable to distinguish
much; (2) the film base will become more brittle and likely to break in
transport through the camera.

It is quite conceivable that a moisture-tight chamber could be designed,
and the film transport issue solved; however, the result would probably
be very cumbersome.

*The photochemistry of film exposure involves migration of Ag atom
nucleation sites to form aggregates of (IIRC) 4-6 atoms - without this
aggregation, single Ag atoms will not form stable nuclei for
development. The effect of temperature on this is something I would find
hard to predict - it would likely be severe at liquid N2 temperatures,
but relatively insignificant at 0 degrees C.

David
--
David Littlewood

Justin Thyme wrote:

I was doing a little more pondering about the thread about photography using
telescopes. As most of us know, proper astronomical CCD's are chilled with
liquid nitrogen to reduce the amount of noise when taking long exposure
shots. Also, most of us know that film keeps better if it is stored at a low
temperature. So I was wondering if anyone knows if film's photographic
capabilities are altered depending on the temperature the film is exposed
at. Obviously one wouldn't freeze film with liquid nitrogen to take photos -
winding it on would be a real bitch, but since it doesn't get real cold in
my part of the world, I was wondering if anyone has experience with how film
reacts if it is exposed at say 0C (32F) or even lower, compared to say
20C(~70F)


An engineer I used to know built a special chamber to pre-heat film just prior
to loading in the camera to increase its sensitivity. He produced some great
astronomy shots that way, notably shots of commets.



--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Justin Thyme wrote:

I was doing a little more pondering about the thread about photography using
telescopes. As most of us know, proper astronomical CCD's are chilled with
liquid nitrogen to reduce the amount of noise when taking long exposure
shots. Also, most of us know that film keeps better if it is stored at a low
temperature. So I was wondering if anyone knows if film's photographic
capabilities are altered depending on the temperature the film is exposed
at. Obviously one wouldn't freeze film with liquid nitrogen to take photos -
winding it on would be a real bitch, but since it doesn't get real cold in
my part of the world, I was wondering if anyone has experience with how film
reacts if it is exposed at say 0C (32F) or even lower, compared to say
20C(~70F)


An engineer I used to know built a special chamber to pre-heat film just prior
to loading in the camera to increase its sensitivity. He produced some great
astronomy shots that way, notably shots of commets.



--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Justin Thyme wrote:
I was doing a little more pondering about the thread about photography using
telescopes. As most of us know, proper astronomical CCD's are chilled with
liquid nitrogen to reduce the amount of noise when taking long exposure
shots. Also, most of us know that film keeps better if it is stored at a low
temperature. So I was wondering if anyone knows if film's photographic
capabilities are altered depending on the temperature the film is exposed
at. Obviously one wouldn't freeze film with liquid nitrogen to take photos -
winding it on would be a real bitch, but since it doesn't get real cold in
my part of the world, I was wondering if anyone has experience with how film
reacts if it is exposed at say 0C (32F) or even lower, compared to say
20C(~70F)

I found a page at NASA talking about the modified Hassy 500 that was used
to take the pictures from the lunar surface. Of course I can't find it
now, but it is out there on the NASA site somewhere.

Basically, they used 70mm open spool rolls in a vacuum with temperature
swings of -153C to 107C on average from shadow to full sun. The film was
made for NASA by Kodak and had a thinner substrate. There's more info out
there on the specifics.

But any of those shots from shadow will show you how kodak film worked at
-153C.

Chris

Justin Thyme wrote:
I was doing a little more pondering about the thread about photography using
telescopes. As most of us know, proper astronomical CCD's are chilled with
liquid nitrogen to reduce the amount of noise when taking long exposure
shots. Also, most of us know that film keeps better if it is stored at a low
temperature. So I was wondering if anyone knows if film's photographic
capabilities are altered depending on the temperature the film is exposed
at. Obviously one wouldn't freeze film with liquid nitrogen to take photos -
winding it on would be a real bitch, but since it doesn't get real cold in
my part of the world, I was wondering if anyone has experience with how film
reacts if it is exposed at say 0C (32F) or even lower, compared to say
20C(~70F)

I found a page at NASA talking about the modified Hassy 500 that was used
to take the pictures from the lunar surface. Of course I can't find it
now, but it is out there on the NASA site somewhere.

Basically, they used 70mm open spool rolls in a vacuum with temperature
swings of -153C to 107C on average from shadow to full sun. The film was
made for NASA by Kodak and had a thinner substrate. There's more info out
there on the specifics.

But any of those shots from shadow will show you how kodak film worked at
-153C.

Chris

David Littlewood writes:

However, using well-accepted laws of physics, one can say: (1) for
certain, the film will attract condensation, which will result in the
photos being terribly fogged to the point of being unable to distinguish
much; (2) the film base will become more brittle and likely to break in
transport through the camera.

I never accepted the laws of physics. I didn't vote them, so why should I?

On the other hand, I used to take photos of the small amount of the
borealis I could see in North Dakota in the dark of winter. Well below zero
Fahrenheit. There is no condensation when you take film from the warm house
into subzero temperatures. There is some concern about brittle film and
there is more concern about winding too fast and causing sparks of static
electricity, but that's winter in North Dakota. Additionally, the
shutter would slowly freeze and grind to a halt. Whether this was because
the battery was dying or the actual freezing of something in the camera, I
leave to sepculation.*

Any condensation on the film comes when you bring it back in the house,
remove the cassette from the camera, then pull the film out to let it warm
up to room temperature. :- There's no a whole lot of condensing going on
at 10, 20, 30 below 0 Fahrenheit. Of course, then we can talk about
sublimation.**

SNIP
*The photochemistry of film exposure involves migration of Ag atom
nucleation sites to form aggregates of (IIRC) 4-6 atoms - without this

*Yeah, right. The only Aggies I knew were more concerned with the
nucleation of fertilized eggs, but that's another story. In my experience,
Aggies do tend to aggregate, but not to migrate. Did you hear about the
Aggie who saw a sign that said "Wet Paint" so he did?

**Sex is the sublimation of Mathematics. -- TC Reed
--
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