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"nospam" wrote in message
...
In article , Charles E. Hardwidge
wrote:

I don't think Adobe have helped by keeping ownership of the raw chain.
You can't get your hands on ACR unless you buy an Adobe product,

nope. adobe dng converter is completely free. it uses camera raw and
anyone can use it.

and DNG is still held under Adobe corporate ownership.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2008/5/15/adobeDNG

Adobe is submitting its DNG 'universal RAW' format to the
International Standard's Organization (ISO), in a move aimed at
increasing acceptance and usage. The format is being proposed as part
of ISO's TIFF/EP (electronic photography), standard.

ACR is not free to download and use as a standalone product and the DNG
convertor is just what it says.

A standards group like OpenGL provides a forum for IHV's to set the
direction, handle developer and end user communication, support a reference
implementation, and so forth.

An ISO standard is useful as far as it goes but may not address these
issues.

Adobe won't even open Lightroom's rendering pipeline to third party
developers (instead making you roundtrip outside the application). I've read
through what documentation exists for the render pipeline and can't see any
technical reason why Adobe block third parties. The reason Adobe give is
it's not technically possible but that claim doesn't add up so the only
reason they have left is maintaining control, and control keeps the revenue
rolling in exclusively to their coffers.

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

In article , Charles E. Hardwidge
wrote:

I don't think Adobe have helped by keeping ownership of the raw chain.
You can't get your hands on ACR unless you buy an Adobe product,

nope. adobe dng converter is completely free. it uses camera raw and
anyone can use it.

and DNG is still held under Adobe corporate ownership.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2008/5/15/adobeDNG

Adobe is submitting its DNG 'universal RAW' format to the
International Standard's Organization (ISO), in a move aimed at
increasing acceptance and usage. The format is being proposed as part
of ISO's TIFF/EP (electronic photography), standard.

ACR is not free to download and use as a standalone product and the DNG
convertor is just what it says.

they're both completely free to download and use.

A standards group like OpenGL provides a forum for IHV's to set the
direction, handle developer and end user communication, support a reference
implementation, and so forth.

An ISO standard is useful as far as it goes but may not address these
issues.

it's not adobe owned, like you said.

Adobe won't even open Lightroom's rendering pipeline to third party
developers (instead making you roundtrip outside the application). I've read
through what documentation exists for the render pipeline and can't see any
technical reason why Adobe block third parties. The reason Adobe give is
it's not technically possible but that claim doesn't add up so the only
reason they have left is maintaining control, and control keeps the revenue
rolling in exclusively to their coffers.

it's difficult to do that and maintain lightroom's non-destructive
workflow.

On Sep 5, 5:31*pm, Alan Browne
wrote:
On 2012.09.04 21:06 , -hh wrote:

On Sep 4, 5:33 pm, Alan Browne
wrote:
...
I rarely try to "save" a poorly exposed, blocked up photo. *I do use
differently exposed photos to make HDR versions (with or without HDR tools).

HDR is merely a software adaptation to try to compensate for the
limitations of the hardware to capture a wide dynamic range.

You really think that is news?

No. But I also didn't previously believe that I needed to state the
obvious in this thread, but the responses illustrated otherwise. So I
just stated the obvious.


The only problem with that entire attitude is that it ignores the old
saying, 'The best camera is the one that you have with you'.

Yes, but even then, digital or film, I'd be working from the original
file or scan. *Not something that has gathered artifacts in past editing.

Sure, but this was a bluntly pragmatic decision, which as per the old
program management saying of "Fast, Good or Cheap. Pick two." simply
chose to sacrifice quality for something fast & cheap...timely to the
thread. If we were to have instead waited for someone to produce the
perfect case study for which no one could possibly have had any
complaint of any kind ...

.... well, you would still be waiting for it, impotently sitting on
your hands.


-hh

On 2012-09-05 19:10:01 -0700, nospam said:

In article , Charles E. Hardwidge
wrote:

I don't think Adobe have helped by keeping ownership of the raw chain.
You can't get your hands on ACR unless you buy an Adobe product,

nope. adobe dng converter is completely free. it uses camera raw and
anyone can use it.

and DNG is still held under Adobe corporate ownership.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2008/5/15/adobeDNG

Adobe is submitting its DNG 'universal RAW' format to the
International Standard's Organization (ISO), in a move aimed at
increasing acceptance and usage. The format is being proposed as part
of ISO's TIFF/EP (electronic photography), standard.

ACR is not free to download and use as a standalone product and the DNG
convertor is just what it says.

they're both completely free to download and use.

OK!
Now you have me, a long time PS, LR and ACR (currently CS5 & LR4) user baffled.

Just where is the download page for this stand alone version of ACR?
There are only updates for the installed ACR Plugin.

DNG Converter yes, but ACR is not available other than as an update for
current versions of CS, LR or PSE(and that has a hobbled version of
ACR). I know of no stand alone ACR in any form.



--
Regards,

Savageduck

"nospam" wrote in message
...
In article , Charles E. Hardwidge
wrote:

I don't think Adobe have helped by keeping ownership of the raw chain.
You can't get your hands on ACR unless you buy an Adobe product,

nope. adobe dng converter is completely free. it uses camera raw and
anyone can use it.

and DNG is still held under Adobe corporate ownership.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2008/5/15/adobeDNG

Adobe is submitting its DNG 'universal RAW' format to the
International Standard's Organization (ISO), in a move aimed at
increasing acceptance and usage. The format is being proposed as part
of ISO's TIFF/EP (electronic photography), standard.

ACR is not free to download and use as a standalone product and the DNG
convertor is just what it says.

they're both completely free to download and use.

A standards group like OpenGL provides a forum for IHV's to set the
direction, handle developer and end user communication, support a
reference implementation, and so forth.

An ISO standard is useful as far as it goes but may not address these
issues.

it's not adobe owned, like you said.

Adobe won't even open Lightroom's rendering pipeline to third party
developers (instead making you roundtrip outside the application). I've
read through what documentation exists for the render pipeline and can't
see any technical reason why Adobe block third parties. The reason Adobe
give is it's not technically possible but that claim doesn't add up so
the only reason they have left is maintaining control, and control keeps
the revenue rolling in exclusively to their coffers.

it's difficult to do that and maintain lightroom's non-destructive
workflow.

You're not listening...

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

In article 2012090520134721123-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

ACR is not free to download and use as a standalone product and the DNG
convertor is just what it says.

they're both completely free to download and use.

OK!
Now you have me, a long time PS, LR and ACR (currently CS5 & LR4) user
baffled.

Just where is the download page for this stand alone version of ACR?
There are only updates for the installed ACR Plugin.

DNG Converter yes, but ACR is not available other than as an update for
current versions of CS, LR or PSE(and that has a hobbled version of
ACR). I know of no stand alone ACR in any form.

dng converter includes camera raw, which is what it uses to do the
conversion. you don't get the control you do compared with photoshop
but the underlying code is the same.

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5388

"nospam" wrote in message
...

dng converter includes camera raw, which is what it uses to do the
conversion. you don't get the control you do compared with photoshop
but the underlying code is the same.

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5388

ACR is a front end, API, raw conversion engine, database of profiles, and
output engine only accessible if you purchase Adobe software and otherwise
closed to third party software. A standalone convertor is a *standalone*
*convertor*. It's not installable and is self-contained and exposes no API's
which is an entirely *different* thing.

Have you actually *read* Adobe's comments and documentation on the Lightroom
render pipeline before making claims that third party inline integration is
impossible? I have and determined third party integration is possible. If
you have read the documentation and can point out why it's not possible go
right ahead and I'll change my mind but not before.

I'm sorry if I'm getting testy here but I'm assuming a minimal level of
competence in discussing system and application level development, and have
no interest in teaching people or being sucked into a long drawn out
discussion. Anyway, you have enough pointers if you want to follow them up
on your own time.

--
Charles E. Hardwidge

On 2012-09-05 22:06:11 -0700, nospam said:

In article 2012090520134721123-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

ACR is not free to download and use as a standalone product and the DNG
convertor is just what it says.

they're both completely free to download and use.

OK!
Now you have me, a long time PS, LR and ACR (currently CS5 & LR4) user
baffled.

Just where is the download page for this stand alone version of ACR?
There are only updates for the installed ACR Plugin.

DNG Converter yes, but ACR is not available other than as an update for
current versions of CS, LR or PSE(and that has a hobbled version of
ACR). I know of no stand alone ACR in any form.

dng converter includes camera raw, which is what it uses to do the
conversion. you don't get the control you do compared with photoshop
but the underlying code is the same.

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5388

Damn! I would never have taken you for a comedian.
"you don't get the control you do when compared with photoshop but the
underlying code is the same."

That is funny! You get no control at all!
What you get is the ability to choose where you want to save the new
dng files. You get to rename and/or renumber them. You get to select
specific ACR compatibility (important if you want these dngs to open in
CS5 or earlier), compression type, and whether you want the original
RAW imbedded in the new dng.
Not one bit of user control and RAW conversion normally found in ACR.

That is an update page for Camera Raw and DNG Converter. There is no
ACR within the stand alone DNG Converter.

As a matter of fact there is no ACR stand alone app of any kind. What
that updater does is update installations of the ACR plugin found in LR
and CS6 Bridge&PS.
The combo ACR/ADNGC is used to convert RAW files to dng RAW files.

In the stand alone DNG Converter only the ACR conversion engine is used
to allow the latest RAW versions from the various manufacturers to be
recognized and converted to dng format. No RAW processing is user
controlled or possible.

You can install a free copy of Adobe DNG Converter using that download
and you will have the ability to create dng flies from the latest
camera manufacturer offerings of RAW files. However if you are running
CS5 and earlier, or LR3 and earlier this will not update the ACR plugin
those use.

Any other updates of ACR/ADNGC will only be applied to CS6, LR4, and ADNGC 7.

If you have CS5 or LR3 and earlier installed, and you have run this
update, you will find that ACR CS5 will offer you a non-functional
selection of "process 2012" along with the working "process 2003" &
"process 2010".
Of course not one bit of ACR is in anyway accessible via DNG Converter.

There is no stand alone ACR. If there is show me how you get it.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article 2012090523105399505-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
Savageduck wrote:

That is an update page for Camera Raw and DNG Converter. There is no
ACR within the stand alone DNG Converter.

camera raw is part of dng converter, just as it is with lightroom,
however, you only get the conversion core in dng converter.

if you want to use the full control of the camera raw interface, then
at a minimum, you'll need photoshop elements which is typically $50-60
but is sometimes bundled for free (and it doesn't matter which version
it is).

In article , Charles E. Hardwidge
wrote:

ACR is a front end, API, raw conversion engine, database of profiles, and
output engine only accessible if you purchase Adobe software and otherwise
closed to third party software. A standalone convertor is a *standalone*
*convertor*. It's not installable and is self-contained and exposes no API's
which is an entirely *different* thing.

who said anything about exposing apis or writing a host?

dng converter which includes camera raw is freely downloadable, as is
the camera raw plug-in.

obviously, adobe isn't going to want you writing your own host for the
camera raw plug-in and mooch off their work. that would be very stupid
on their part.

Have you actually *read* Adobe's comments and documentation on the Lightroom
render pipeline before making claims that third party inline integration is
impossible? I have and determined third party integration is possible. If
you have read the documentation and can point out why it's not possible go
right ahead and I'll change my mind but not before.

i didn't say it was impossible. don't twist things.

what i said was it was difficult to write lightroom plug-ins and
maintain a non-destructive workflow. the same limitation applies also
applies to aperture.

I'm sorry if I'm getting testy here but I'm assuming a minimal level of
competence in discussing system and application level development, and have
no interest in teaching people or being sucked into a long drawn out
discussion. Anyway, you have enough pointers if you want to follow them up
on your own time.

i'm already very familiar with what's needed, having written several
photoshop plug-ins, including support for smart objects. i've looked at
lightroom as well as aperture, but haven't done anything with them yet.