How to get good black & white from digital?

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Oh, you were expecting *me* to supply some tips..? No, I'm a no-talent
loser in this area!

I was hoping to hear from those who have tried, successfully or
otherwise, to get high quality black and white results from a digital
workflow. I think it's a given that the printer is a big issue, and
that you need a lot of resolution (eg 200 ppi is probably not going to
suffice!). But I would like to concentrate on the *capture stage* -
what is it that makes a superb b&w image?

A great b&w has a 'look' to it that is often referred to, but rarely
is an attempt made to explain *what gives it that quality* - is it the
tone curve, the dynamic range, the nature of the media, ... I'm a bit
sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I
agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!!

Seems to me that if the issues can be defined, then maybe there are
some workarounds and techniques that will help to let us digital-geeks
begin to explore the final frontier... If the issues *can't* be
defined, then that also tells me something.. (O;

If I've missed a good site on this topic, *please* enlighten me!!

PS - The answer "use film" - while technically correct - is not quite
the answer I seek...
PPS - Any attempts to answer this thread concentrating specifically on
the issues while avoiding personality clashes, will be greatly
appreciated. (O:

On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote:

I'm a bit
sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I
agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!!

I don't agree with this at all.
It is very possible to get quality B&W from a digital capture.
So the question becomes, "Why can't you?"

On Oct 14, 6:26 pm, Annika1980 wrote:
On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote:



I'm a bit
sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I
agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!!

I don't agree with this at all.
It is very possible to get quality B&W from a digital capture.
So the question becomes, "Why can't you?"

Fair question. And I'll probably never be a good b&w imager - I just
don't readily see scenes in b&w... I tend to experiment with images I
have already taken, and (more by accident than design), 'discover'
those that look good (or at least better than they did in colour...)
in b&w.

But I don't often see striking b&w images that have been *captured* in
digital, and often my results have the boring 'look' that I got with a
recent SI submission:
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/86568468
or, say, from this portrait:
http://www.marktphoto.com/portrait/slides/lara_1.jpg
neither of which is quite what I wanted - plus with the first one I
ran into posterisation problems (granted, it was not shot raw..).

And I often hear comments about the difficulty in getting the quality
achieved from a good b&w film and them legendary platinum prints...
here are a few examples of the 'look' I mean - of course you could
(accurately) say these images are more about the image content and how
they were lit. But any tips on how to approach this sort of tonality
(for want of a better word) would be appreciated.

http://archives.imaginginfo.com/arti...6970_Lyson.jpg
http://a4.vox.com/6a00d10a7a1eb08bfa...c0b46a47-500pi
http://www.chroniclebooks.com/Chroni...8/coltrane.jpg
http://www.thespiderawards.com/image...ichele_009.jpg
http://lakarita.bravehost.com/Karita...ard_Avedon.jpg

Anwyay, I'm sure I've heard you say that b&w is mostly a waste of
time! Are you turning? (O:

On Oct 14, 5:36 am, wrote:

I'm sure I've heard you say that b&w is mostly a waste of
time! Are you turning? (O:


I don't swing that way.

Anyway, the images you linked to looked to be more
about excellent lighting than anything having to do with
B&W vs. color. And that's what B&W is all about ...
light and shadows.

On Oct 14, 5:36 am, wrote:
On Oct 14, 6:26 pm, Annika1980 wrote:

On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote:

I'm a bit
sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I
agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!!

I don't agree with this at all.
It is very possible to get quality B&W from a digital capture.
So the question becomes, "Why can't you?"

Fair question. And I'll probably never be a good b&w imager - I just
don't readily see scenes in b&w... I tend to experiment with images I
have already taken, and (more by accident than design), 'discover'
those that look good (or at least better than they did in colour...)
in b&w.

But I don't often see striking b&w images that have been *captured* in
digital, and often my results have the boring 'look' that I got with a
recent SI submission:http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/86568468
or, say, from this portrait:http://www.marktphoto.com/portrait/slides/lara_1.jpg
neither of which is quite what I wanted - plus with the first one I
ran into posterisation problems (granted, it was not shot raw..).

And I often hear comments about the difficulty in getting the quality
achieved from a good b&w film and them legendary platinum prints...
here are a few examples of the 'look' I mean - of course you could
(accurately) say these images are more about the image content and how
they were lit. But any tips on how to approach this sort of tonality
(for want of a better word) would be appreciated.

http://archives.imaginginfo.com/arti...ard_Avedon.jpg

Anwyay, I'm sure I've heard you say that b&w is mostly a waste of
time! Are you turning? (O:


What I remember Bret saying is that b&w in not good in many cases.
And I agree. For his type of photography, such a wildlife, macro
shots of insects and flowers, and panos of those gorgeous places in
the area that he lives, are definitely best done in color. (I do love
those IR panos though). I use b&w to mainly tell a story, such as in
portraits of people or a street scene.....I guess it's best described
as photojournalism.
Helen

On Oct 14, 12:07 pm, wrote:
On Oct 14, 5:36 am, wrote:

On Oct 14, 6:26 pm, Annika1980 wrote:

On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote:

I'm a bit
sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I
agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!!

I don't agree with this at all.
It is very possible to get quality B&W from a digital capture.
So the question becomes, "Why can't you?"

Fair question. And I'll probably never be a good b&w imager - I just
don't readily see scenes in b&w... I tend to experiment with images I
have already taken, and (more by accident than design), 'discover'
those that look good (or at least better than they did in colour...)
in b&w.

But I don't often see striking b&w images that have been *captured* in
digital, and often my results have the boring 'look' that I got with a
recent SI submission:http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/86568468
or, say, from this portrait:http://www.marktphoto.com/portrait/slides/lara_1.jpg
neither of which is quite what I wanted - plus with the first one I
ran into posterisation problems (granted, it was not shot raw..).

And I often hear comments about the difficulty in getting the quality
achieved from a good b&w film and them legendary platinum prints...
here are a few examples of the 'look' I mean - of course you could
(accurately) say these images are more about the image content and how
they were lit. But any tips on how to approach this sort of tonality
(for want of a better word) would be appreciated.

http://archives.imaginginfo.com/arti...96970_Lyson.jp...

Anwyay, I'm sure I've heard you say that b&w is mostly a waste of
time! Are you turning? (O:

What I remember Bret saying is that b&w in not good in many cases.
And I agree. For his type of photography, such a wildlife, macro
shots of insects and flowers, and panos of those gorgeous places in
the area that he lives, are definitely best done in color. (I do love
those IR panos though). I use b&w to mainly tell a story, such as in
portraits of people or a street scene.....I guess it's best described
as photojournalism.
Helen

Sorry about the typos. I'm typing with one hand these days.
Helen

On Oct 14, 1:09 pm, wrote:

Sorry about the typos. I'm typing with one hand these days.

I've been doin that for years.

Helen wrote:

I use b&w to mainly tell a story, such as in
portraits of people or a street scene.....
I guess it's best described as photojournalism.

Hello Helen. You sometimes refer to your own photography but I'm not sure
I've ever seen any of your work. Do you have some images on the web
somewhere?

Please - I'm not trying to set you up, I'm genuinely interested. E-mail me
if you prefer (the reply-to address is munged).

On Oct 15, 6:38 am, "Wilba" wrote:
Helen wrote:

I use b&w to mainly tell a story, such as in
portraits of people or a street scene.....
I guess it's best described as photojournalism.

Hello Helen. You sometimes refer to your own photography but I'm not sure
I've ever seen any of your work. Do you have some images on the web
somewhere?

Please - I'm not trying to set you up, I'm genuinely interested. E-mail me
if you prefer (the reply-to address is munged).


I've submitted some of my work to the SI hosted by Jim Kramer on this
newsgroup.
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/root
Here is the Mandates I've participated in:
Timing, Multiple Exposures, Odditorium, Loss, Sloth, Bond and I think
that's it.
Helen

wrote in message ups.com...
On Oct 14, 6:26 pm, Annika1980 wrote:
On Oct 14, 4:18 am, wrote:



I'm a bit
sick of hearing "you just can't do quality b&w with digital" - while I
agree that seems to be mostly true, I want to know *exactly why*...!!!

I don't agree with this at all.
It is very possible to get quality B&W from a digital capture.
So the question becomes, "Why can't you?"

Fair question. And I'll probably never be a good b&w imager - I just
don't readily see scenes in b&w... I tend to experiment with images I
have already taken, and (more by accident than design), 'discover'
those that look good (or at least better than they did in colour...)
in b&w.

But I don't often see striking b&w images that have been *captured* in
digital, and often my results have the boring 'look' that I got with a
recent SI submission:
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/86568468
or, say, from this portrait:
http://www.marktphoto.com/portrait/slides/lara_1.jpg
neither of which is quite what I wanted - plus with the first one I
ran into posterisation problems (granted, it was not shot raw..).

And I often hear comments about the difficulty in getting the quality
achieved from a good b&w film and them legendary platinum prints...
here are a few examples of the 'look' I mean - of course you could
(accurately) say these images are more about the image content and how
they were lit. But any tips on how to approach this sort of tonality
(for want of a better word) would be appreciated.

http://archives.imaginginfo.com/arti...6970_Lyson.jpg
http://a4.vox.com/6a00d10a7a1eb08bfa...c0b46a47-500pi
http://www.chroniclebooks.com/Chroni...8/coltrane.jpg
http://www.thespiderawards.com/image...ichele_009.jpg
http://lakarita.bravehost.com/Karita...ard_Avedon.jpg

Anwyay, I'm sure I've heard you say that b&w is mostly a waste of
time! Are you turning? (O:


These questions as an approach do make much more sense. In the first place everything
in my previous post. In the second, I'll assume you are using a digital camera that is
artistically viable, such as, whether or not it accepts interchangeable lenses, doesn't need
to, like a super zoom but the lens...

1) must accept filters,
2) you can control the shutter speeds,
3) you can control the aperture sizes,
4) you can control exposure compensation...? Correct?
5) you can set the camera to record in raw mode
6) and use a red 25a or 29 filter on the front of the lens
7) set the aperture to F/11, 16 or 22
8) using aperture priority to control the shutter speed by the aperture that is used
9) set the exposure compensation to one or two stops [under-exposing] down,
10) and make sure the setting for sharpness in the camera menu is set to "sharpest" or "hard",
11) using a tripod and a cable release, or the two second self timer. And mrror lock-up if
your camera has it.

And all that will get you what you want, out of the camera. You experiment with all these
variables, and make it come together for yourself.

--
Giant_Alex
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/