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#1
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Why all the noise about noise?
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 06:13:06 -0700 (PDT), eNo
wrote: Along with rethinking my obsession with sharpness, I am also reconsidering my outlook on noise. Yes, if I can take steps to avoid noise that's a good thing, but if I don't completely succeed, should I beat myself up or toss the image? Is it really that terminal to have noise in an image, even noise visible at regular display resolutions? See my thoughts on the subject at: http://esfotoclix.com/blog1/?p=707 ~~~ eNo http://esfotoclix.com Because some people are not happy unless they have something to complain about? Or to be able to say "My camera is better at this....."? Personally, considering what I remember my old ISO 400 and up films used to look (slides) and print like, I think the vast majority of todays better (read "above most P&S cameras") handle it pretty well. But as Rich pointed out - if the noise detracts from the image it is no good. But if not - who cares. Steve |
#2
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Why all the noise about noise?
Steven Wandy wrote:
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 06:13:06 -0700 (PDT), eNo wrote: Along with rethinking my obsession with sharpness, I am also reconsidering my outlook on noise. Yes, if I can take steps to avoid noise that's a good thing, but if I don't completely succeed, should I beat myself up or toss the image? Is it really that terminal to have noise in an image, even noise visible at regular display resolutions? See my thoughts on the subject at: http://esfotoclix.com/blog1/?p=707 ~~~ eNo http://esfotoclix.com Because some people are not happy unless they have something to complain about? Or to be able to say "My camera is better at this....."? Personally, considering what I remember my old ISO 400 and up films used to look (slides) and print like, I think the vast majority of todays better (read "above most P&S cameras") handle it pretty well. But as Rich pointed out - if the noise detracts from the image it is no good. But if not - who cares. A lot of people care, esp. those who shoot nature and sports. Higher ISO with less noise allows them more latitude to get usable images that please much and have little noise to distract. Allows deeper DOF as well which with long lenses, in dim light is pretty hard even with high ISO... Things will always improve. Nobody said we have to stick with film performance. Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. |
#3
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Why all the noise about noise?
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G David |
#4
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Why all the noise about noise?
"David J Taylor" wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G And don't all of them have plugins that can add "film grain" too? -- Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) |
#5
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Why all the noise about noise?
David J Taylor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G Noise removal comes at the expense of sharpness though. |
#6
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Why all the noise about noise?
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
... [] Noise removal comes at the expense of sharpness though. Depending on the image, the effects of limited noise reduction may not include a subjective reduction in sharpness. I find that you see what the image looks like before and after the process, and decide which you prefer. BTW: in Paint Shop Pro, for example, there is an option for setting the sharpness change after the noise reduction process. Please don't think that I'm advocating that all noise reduction is perfect - far from it. I sometimes find that converting a noisy image into greyscale (black and white) can enhance its appearance - for a more "newsy" look. I don't ever recall adding noise, though. David |
#7
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Why all the noise about noise?
On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 08:17:39 GMT, "David J Taylor"
I don't ever recall adding noise, though. Try adding a known noise to a noisy image some time. The human mind is a wonderful thing. You will find that adding a known noise to an unknown noise can actually enhance details hidden in the unknown noise. A good analogy using another type of human perception (as opposed to visual) would be the sensation of an itch. If you leave that itch alone it will overpower your senses. The only thing you can think about and perceive is that "itch noise" in your nervous system. However, if you scratch the area, adding a wider and stronger region of known noise, the original "itch noise" disappears in the added noise. The original itch still remains but you don't realize it. It is now hidden in all the sensory noise that you added. Effectively canceling out the itch's "noise". This is precisely why scratching an itch works. The same holds true for noise in a sound signal. If information is being sent by sound but has a lot of noise in it, adding a known white-noise to the noisy sound signal can effectively mask the unknown noise. Making the information contained in that sound signal audible and intelligible. This was a discovery of my own one time when in the kitchen, having turned up a noisy band on the short-wave radio to listen to it while I was busy cooking. The voices from the radio in the living-room were unintelligible from the kitchen, the noise in the sound was just too great. By chance, on the way back to turn off the radio, I first turned on the forced-air heater-blower for my fireplace. The white-noise from the fan added to the unintelligible radio transmission made the radio's sound signal amazingly clear and understandable. I went back to the kitchen as intended and listened to the broadcast as clear as anything. The noise in the radio sound was still present. If I went nearer the radio I could hear the noise the same as before. But the added white-noise from the fireplace fan between me and the radio masked the radio's noise. I have since expounded on this discovery about noise vs. signal to include all other human senses. Adding a known noise to an unknown noise to increase the available amount of valid information works with sound, sight, touch, and I suspect taste and smell too. People who dwell on "noise" in a signal have no idea what they are talking about. They themselves are more of useless noise than the noise itself that they constantly and noisily rail against. |
#8
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Why all the noise about noise?
David J Taylor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out? I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas. Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...). |
#9
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Why all the noise about noise?
J. Clarke wrote:
David J Taylor wrote: "Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G Noise removal comes at the expense of sharpness though. I'd use the term "fine detail" instead of sharpness though it amounts to much the same thing. |
#10
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Why all the noise about noise?
Alan Browne wrote:
David J Taylor wrote: "Alan Browne" wrote in message ... [] Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed very easily. Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than "removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out? I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas. Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...). That's what Neat Image does on its default settings. But it also has a great variety of adjustable parameters to allow you to fine tune the trade offs between various aspects of noise reduction, fine detail preservation, sharpening, etc., plus a variety of prepackaged custom sets and the ability to create your own. Takes quite a bit of learning, but well worth while. Different cameras, different lenses, and different kinds of subject and lighting can call for quite large differences in noise reduction adjustments. Doesn't Noise Ninja offer customisable noise reduction parameterisation? -- Chris Malcolm |
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