Personal boycot of Lithium Ion batteries

wrote:
Lithium Ion bateries will wear out with or without use. You should be
expecting no less than 1 year and no more than 2 years of life from
these bateries. They have the best energy density in casual use today,
at some cost in longevity compared to NiMH. You should be aware that
dSLRs with Battery grips that use AA bateries, only get a few dozen
shots from a handfull of AA batteries in the grip, compared to 1000+
from the standard LiIon cell.


Complete rot. It depends on the Ah capacity of the batteries. Even my
prehistoric DC-120 that draws 2A from 4 x AAs could take a few hundred
shots on a single charge of AA NiMH. And battery capacities have
improved significantly since that was in regular use. Modern cameras
take a lot less current so I'd be surprised if you didn't get at least
500 shots per charge on a camera like the Pentax istD.

NiMH are not as good energy density as the best Li cells, but they are a
bit more robust. Most of the people who have trouble seem to have abused
their batteries in some way either with a dodgy charger or other misuse.
The energy density in the cells is high enough that they include a self
protect circuit that in extremis will protect the battery from self
imolation by making it open circuit. One of my notebook batteries went
down that way (it had a very hard life).

Regards,
Martin Brown

"Martin Francis" wrote in message
...

"SimonLW" wrote in message
...
The Lio-ion in my Dell notebook (only 2 years old) now only runs it for
10-15 minutes. About $200 to get a new one. The Sony Cybershot camera at
work, the Info lithium battery I get low battery warning after recharging
$50 to replace. My Fuji 6800, the Lithium was no good after three years.
I've tried some off brands for less $$, but they don't seem hold the
charge as the OEM. The $35 I bought as a spare form my 6800 never was
that great and it quit running the camera after 1 year.

They are expensive and have a short life span. From this point on, I'm
going with cameras that will take AA, or have the AA option in the
vertical hand grip (DSLRs). With AA's I can carry a couple spares without
the cost of the second lithium. And in a pinch, I can go buy Alkalines
just about anywhere. I can get 150 shots from alkalines PS camera or 300+
with Ni-Mh.

Well that's my rant. Perhaps Lithium longevity will improve. Don't the
hybrid cars use lithium batteries? Can't imagine the cost of replacing
that thing in three years!

My mother's Dimage Z2 can get a couple hundred shots from some NiMHs,
using the flash and the screen. From a modest set of alkalines, she got...
well, three.

Martin

I have a FinePix A330. I don't even bother with rechargables. I put in 2
alkaline AAs and I'm good for 3 or four months. I use the screen and flash
and I get around 120 shots. The camera won't trickle them dry when it is off
as well. As current draw drops, AAA batteries can be utiliezed for even
smaller cameras.
John

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 22:54:13 +0100, a wrote:

In article .com,
says...

Sounds like your real issue is with all rechargeable batteries. NiMH
and NiCad only last about 2 years as well. Li-ion batts are more
compact (higher enery density) than NiMH and NiCad, so that's why
they're more expensive.

Well no, you get 1000 charge/discharge cycles, which unless you
charge/discharge the batteries several times/day each day, should give
you a few years of life at least. But even if you only got two years, it
wouldn't matter, as NiMH batteries are cheap to replace.
I have some ni-cads that are almost 20 years old (Sanyo hi capacity) and
are still reliable. I use them in cycle lamps until the lights are too dim
to see and then recharge.

--
Neil
Delete delete to reply by email

SimonLW wrote:
The Lio-ion in my Dell notebook (only 2 years old) now only runs it for
10-15 minutes.

Many times you can refresh the battery by completely draining it and
then fully charging the battery. Apple recommends that you do this
every few months for their PowerBooks.


Well that's my rant. Perhaps Lithium longevity will improve. Don't the
hybrid cars use lithium batteries? Can't imagine the cost of replacing that
thing in three years!
-S

Actually, the batteries in our Civic Hybrid were rated for seven years.
They were NiMh. The newer Civic Hybrids still use NiMh and are supposed
to last eight years.

RK wrote:
One thing that bothers me is that it is really important to know how
long these batteries have been on the shelf before purchase, and that
is almost impossible to know since everyone seems to be selling them as
'new'.

Nikon put the date code on their DSLR batteries.

Andrew.

In article , SimonLW
wrote:

Well that's my rant. Perhaps Lithium longevity will improve. Don't the
hybrid cars use lithium batteries? Can't imagine the cost of replacing that
thing in three years!

Welcome to the wonderful Catch-22 that is rechargeable batteries. I
work in tech support in the computer industry, and know a lot about
this. A few realities:

1. Rechargeable batteries of ANY type have a limited lifetime, and must
be treated as an expendable item. A LOT of my customers fail to grasp
this.

2. In most cases, this will be in the three-year range with "typical"
use. Heavier use will yield less life; it's really the number of
charge-discharge cycles. The benchmark seems to be about 1000 cycles,
but with many types it's even less - 300 to 500 in some cases. My
(tiny) cordless phones at home recommend I buy new rechargeables EVERY
YEAR.

3. High performance batteries have poorer life. A battery that can
deliver high current will have lower internal resistance and
self-discharge more quickly; a battery with higher total storage will
not survive as many cycles.

4. Manufacturers want to make their products smaller or higher in
performance; those are selling points. Battery longevity usually isn't.
IN FACT, they sort of have a vested interest in poor battery longevity.
You've already bought the camera, they feel they can gouge outrageously
for replacement parts. And if you decide to just buy a new camera, so
much the better.

IMHO, most replacement batteries are overpriced by a factor of at least
two (or three).

--------------------------------

BUT, all that said, you're painting yourself into a corner by eschewing
lithium batteries in favor of Alkaline AA's. Your camera will be either
bigger or lower in performance than otherwise, and if you do the math I
think you'll find it'll be more expensive to run, as well.

In article , SimonLW wrote:
The Lio-ion in my Dell notebook (only 2 years old) now only runs it for

Well that's my rant. Perhaps Lithium longevity will improve. Don't the
hybrid cars use lithium batteries? Can't imagine the cost of replacing that
thing in three years!

My Toyota Prius uses NiMH batteries, and they have a 5 year warranty.

SimonLW wrote:

Well that's my rant. Perhaps Lithium longevity will improve.

We can only hope so! On the plus side, I had an old big heavy cellphone
(my daughter calls 'em "ghetto" phones) with a lithium battery that lasted
several years. It was Nokia not Dell, which perhaps explains it.

Don't the hybrid cars use lithium batteries? Can't imagine the cost
of replacing that thing in three years!

No, they use NiMH batteries. But your concern is justified; it also
worries me. Toyota had (maybe still has) a 10 year warranty on them.
The Ford Escape hybrid, I've heard, uses lots of D cells packaged up.

Exxon-Mobil bought the rights to larger-than-D-cell NiMH battery packs
from General Motors, and has been busy suppressing the technology
in order to delay the transition from our oil-based economy. Imagine
a simple electric car without all the hybrid claptrap... or a solar home
with good NiMH batteries...

Bucky wrote:

Sounds like your real issue is with all rechargeable batteries.
NiMH and NiCad only last about 2 years as well. Li-ion batts are more

Bull-oney.

We have some AA NiMH batteries at home that have been in use
for over 8 years. They are GP brand. I'm not certain how long,
(wish I had marked the year of purchase on these batteries) but
I'm sure our kids have had book lights for 8 years.

Some NiMH batteries we bought didn't last that long, especially
Ray-o-vac it seems. I'm not sure whether milliamp-hour capacity
is inversely related to life expectancy; could be.

Get over it. Nothing lasts forever, not even you.


"SimonLW" wrote in message
...
The Lio-ion in my Dell notebook (only 2 years old) now only runs it for
10-15 minutes. About $200 to get a new one. The Sony Cybershot camera at
work, the Info lithium battery I get low battery warning after recharging
$50 to replace. My Fuji 6800, the Lithium was no good after three years.
I've tried some off brands for less $$, but they don't seem hold the
charge as the OEM. The $35 I bought as a spare form my 6800 never was that
great and it quit running the camera after 1 year.

They are expensive and have a short life span. From this point on, I'm
going with cameras that will take AA, or have the AA option in the
vertical hand grip (DSLRs). With AA's I can carry a couple spares without
the cost of the second lithium. And in a pinch, I can go buy Alkalines
just about anywhere. I can get 150 shots from alkalines PS camera or 300+
with Ni-Mh.

Well that's my rant. Perhaps Lithium longevity will improve. Don't the
hybrid cars use lithium batteries? Can't imagine the cost of replacing
that thing in three years!
-S