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alternatives for ammonium thiosulfate?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 21st 13, 07:47 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
[email protected]
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Posts: 1
Default alternatives for ammonium thiosulfate?

On Monday, July 9, 2001 5:45:19 AM UTC-4, Klaus Schmaranz wrote:
Hi,

Ammonium thiosulfate is quite difficult to get (and expensive!)
because it's quite unstable... sofar, so good...

Is there any alternative to be used for a fixer that will be capable
of fully fixing modern emulsions (such as rapid fixer)? Sodium
thiosulfate doesn't do a perfect job on them, at least not if they
contain silver-iodide.

BTW - is there any source where I can find out which films and papers
need ammonium thiosulfate because of the iodide, and which don't?

Thanks,
Klaus.


There is a tiny but growing sub-culture alternative to ammonium thiosulfate as a fixer, not spoken of in polite erudite professional spaces. Everybody knows this elephant in the room is as brown as Cafenol-C. Pardon my vulgarity, but iodized Sea Salt or Portuguese Kitchen Salt (NOT TABLE and NOT REFINED) plus distilled water supersaturated and filtered at 1.2 kg/litre density at 25-40 degrees C for 4 to 18 hours has been used with some degree of success. An odd thing is that a particular seaweed called "Dulse", rich in potassium iodide, may be added to the soup for an extra special secret "kick". Of course that's off the main highway off some back road of electronic information, face down in a ditch with a tinfoil hat kind of stuff. Not exactly something you would use for a Presidential inauguration or anything other than art. You didn't here it from me! Keep it on the D-L!
  #2  
Old November 21st 13, 04:23 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Jean-David Beyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 247
Default alternatives for ammonium thiosulfate?

On 11/21/2013 01:47 AM, wrote:
On Monday, July 9, 2001 5:45:19 AM UTC-4, Klaus Schmaranz wrote:
Hi,

Ammonium thiosulfate is quite difficult to get (and expensive!)
because it's quite unstable... sofar, so good...

Is there any alternative to be used for a fixer that will be
capable of fully fixing modern emulsions (such as rapid fixer)?
Sodium thiosulfate doesn't do a perfect job on them, at least not
if they contain silver-iodide.

BTW - is there any source where I can find out which films and
papers need ammonium thiosulfate because of the iodide, and which
don't?

Thanks, Klaus.


There is a tiny but growing sub-culture alternative to ammonium
thiosulfate as a fixer, not spoken of in polite erudite professional
spaces. Everybody knows this elephant in the room is as brown as
Cafenol-C. Pardon my vulgarity, but iodized Sea Salt or Portuguese
Kitchen Salt (NOT TABLE and NOT REFINED) plus distilled water
supersaturated and filtered at 1.2 kg/litre density at 25-40 degrees
C for 4 to 18 hours has been used with some degree of success. An
odd thing is that a particular seaweed called "Dulse", rich in
potassium iodide, may be added to the soup for an extra special
secret "kick". Of course that's off the main highway off some back
road of electronic information, face down in a ditch with a tinfoil
hat kind of stuff. Not exactly something you would use for a
Presidential inauguration or anything other than art. You didn't
here it from me! Keep it on the D-L!


I used to use F-9 fixer. It is not as fast as Kodak Rapid Fixer, but it
is faster than F-5.

Water 600ml Hot water
Sodium Thiosulfate 360gr crystalline or 230gr anhydrous
Ammonium sulfate 60gr
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 15gr
Acetic Acid 28% 48ml
Boric Acid 7.5gr
Potassium Alum (fine dodecahydrated) 15gr Do not use anhydrous
Cold water to make 1000ml

It is a hardening fixer. If you do not want hardening, you could reduce
or omit the Potassium Alum.


I prefer F-6 fixer for most things.

Water, about 50 Celsius (125° F.) 600 ml
Sodium Thiosulfate (Hypo) 240 g
Sodium Sulfite, desiccated 15 g
Acetic Acid, 28%; 48 ml
Kodalk 15 g
Potassium Alum 15 g
Cold water to make 1 liter

Here, too, you can omit the potassium alum if you do not need hardening.

--
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  #3  
Old November 30th 13, 08:01 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default alternatives for ammonium thiosulfate?


"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
...
On 11/21/2013 01:47 AM, wrote:
On Monday, July 9, 2001 5:45:19 AM UTC-4, Klaus Schmaranz
wrote:
Hi,

Ammonium thiosulfate is quite difficult to get (and
expensive!)
because it's quite unstable... sofar, so good...

Is there any alternative to be used for a fixer that
will be
capable of fully fixing modern emulsions (such as rapid
fixer)?
Sodium thiosulfate doesn't do a perfect job on them, at
least not
if they contain silver-iodide.

BTW - is there any source where I can find out which
films and
papers need ammonium thiosulfate because of the iodide,
and which
don't?

Thanks, Klaus.


There is a tiny but growing sub-culture alternative to
ammonium
thiosulfate as a fixer, not spoken of in polite erudite
professional
spaces. Everybody knows this elephant in the room is as
brown as
Cafenol-C. Pardon my vulgarity, but iodized Sea Salt or
Portuguese
Kitchen Salt (NOT TABLE and NOT REFINED) plus distilled
water
supersaturated and filtered at 1.2 kg/litre density at
25-40 degrees
C for 4 to 18 hours has been used with some degree of
success. An
odd thing is that a particular seaweed called "Dulse",
rich in
potassium iodide, may be added to the soup for an extra
special
secret "kick". Of course that's off the main highway
off some back
road of electronic information, face down in a ditch with
a tinfoil
hat kind of stuff. Not exactly something you would use
for a
Presidential inauguration or anything other than art.
You didn't
here it from me! Keep it on the D-L!


I used to use F-9 fixer. It is not as fast as Kodak Rapid
Fixer, but it
is faster than F-5.

Water 600ml Hot water
Sodium Thiosulfate 360gr crystalline or 230gr
anhydrous
Ammonium sulfate 60gr
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 15gr
Acetic Acid 28% 48ml
Boric Acid 7.5gr
Potassium Alum (fine dodecahydrated) 15gr Do not use
anhydrous
Cold water to make 1000ml

It is a hardening fixer. If you do not want hardening, you
could reduce
or omit the Potassium Alum.


I prefer F-6 fixer for most things.

Water, about 50 Celsius (125° F.) 600 ml
Sodium Thiosulfate (Hypo) 240 g
Sodium Sulfite, desiccated 15 g
Acetic Acid, 28%; 48 ml
Kodalk 15 g
Potassium Alum 15 g
Cold water to make 1 liter

Here, too, you can omit the potassium alum if you do not
need hardening.


You left out Kodak F-7 Rapid Fixer

Water, about 125F (50C)......................600.0 ml
Sodium Thiosulfate, crystalline..............360.0 grams
Ammonium Chloride.............................50.0 grams
Sodium sulfite, desiccated....................15.0 grams
Acetic acid, 28%..............................48.0 grams
Boric Acid, crystalline....................... 7.5 grams
Potassium alum................................15.0 grams
Water to make..................................1.0 liter

As with the other formulas the alum can be left out and
probably the acid too if you don't want a hardening fixing
bath.
Sodium thiosulfate, desiccated, can also be used with an
adjustment in the amount.

A couple of general notes on fixing baths:
Sodium thiosulfate will do fine for iodide-containing
emulsions but the fixing time should be extended somewhat.
Nearly all film emulsions contain some silver iodide and
many modern paper emulsions do also. Iodide is both more
difficult to fix and iodide accumulated in the fixing bath
tends to retard fixing. The usual rule is to fix for twice
the time it takes the emulsion to visually clear. This rule
works for reasonably fresh fixing baths. However, an
exhausted bath will not completely convert silver halide to
soluble silver no matter how long fixing is extended. At one
time Kodak recommended extending fixing time to three times
clearing time for tabular grain films, which have a lot of
iodide and are difficult to fix. The solution is to use a
two-bath fixer. Ammonium fixing baths have greater capacity
before they stop fixing effectively and some experts state
that a two-bath fixer is not necessary if a "rapid" fixer is
used, but I think its wisdom as well as an economy to use a
two bath system. In addition, the use of a sulfite wash aid
(I think Ilford still sells this but you can make your own)
will cause some otherwise insoluble silver complexes to wash
out. It effectively extends the capacity of the fixing bath.
Wash aid will also remove residual sensitizing dye from
films where it is persistent such as T-Max. Kodak used to
state that the stain was the result of the dye binding to
the silver due to insufficient fixing but I've encountered
this staining even with very extended fixing in fresh fixer.
The wash aid removes it in a few seconds.

Non-acid fixing.
Unlike developers, which must operate at a certain pH to
work, fixing baths are pretty much independent of pH. What
the acid in a fixing bath is for is two-fold; first, it
stops the developer, and secondly it is necessary for the
non-organic hardeners usually used in fixing baths. If the
hardener is not necessary it can be left out and the acid
can be left out also. While I think it is probably a good
idea to have a certain amount of buffered acid in the fixing
bath to eliminate development while fixing it is not
necessary. However, a thorough rinse in place of the usually
acid stop bath is a good idea. Most of the sodium sulfite
in fixing baths is there to prevent the acid from
decomposing the thiosulfate. If the bath is made neutral
most of the sulfite can be left out, but not all. For one
thing it prevents staining from carried over developer which
may remain active in the fixing bath, and also it prevents
decomposition of the thiosulfate from other sources such as
exposure to the air. Typical fixing baths have about 15
grams per liter of sodium sulfite, if made neutral about 5
grams will do although there is no harm in using more and it
might result in cleaner negatives by preventing any
staining.
I can see no advantage whatever to making a fixing bath
alkaline. The advantages of a non-acid bath are obtained if
its neutral and it will have less tendency to re-activate
carried over developer. If a buffered sulfite wash aid is
used following fixing there are really no advantages to a
non-acid or non-hardening fixing bath other than the lack of
odor.
Also, Ilford makes rapid fixer and the fixing baths for
color processing are rapid fixer. I don't know about current
prices and availability but you may be able to find made-up
rapid fixer at an attractive price.



--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL



 




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