Lith film emulation

On 2007-10-28, piterengel wrote:
On Oct 28, 3:48 am, "Ken Hart" wrote:
"piterengel" wrote in message

oups.com...
snip These are my first two results. I've mounted on camera an EFKE 25
film, I've taken 8 pictures, cut this first part adn put into a tank.
Than I've taken again 8 pictures, the same of first time, cut film and
put un another tank. I've dobe this three times.
Than I've developed first part with ID-13 for 3 mins. Images are well
contrasted BUT NOT enough. I remember I'm trying to obtain LINE works.
With the second part I've used Kodak D-85 for 2.5 mins. SURPRISE!
Everything is disappeared!!! I've a totally empty film, without any
shadow or kind of figure! What's happen?

the D-85: Completely clear, including no edge printing? That's a
processing problem. Either the developer had no activity at all, or you
confused the developer and the fixer, and fixed the film first, completely
clearing it. (Everyone has to make that mistake at least once...I'm waiting
for it to happen to me!)

You might want to take a chunk of film and just put it in the developer to
see if it turns black, and how long it takes.

Assuming that errors can occour, this is not the case. I've prepared
D-85 and immediately put into the tank, so I've developed film, not
fixed. The fact is that everything is disappeared form film, numbers
of pictures and trade mark too. Surely this is an extremely strong
developer, I'm thinking to try again it but diluited ten times.

It seems to me that if you are sure you used the solution for D-85
that you prepared, and get blank without even the edge numbers and
trademarks, before you even fixed the film, then the developer solution
must have been prepared incorrectly or the chemicals you used may
have been mislabelled. Assuming you are using 35mm film.

In my experience, the sheet litho film (Kodak 2553, IIRC) not only has
no edge notches, making printing on the correct side something of an
artistic experience, but also it has no edge markings.

Diluting the developper 10x will not help you.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 07:45:01 up 5 days, 3 min, 1 user, load average: 4.08, 4.08, 4.09

On Oct 28, 12:53 pm, Jean-David Beyer
wrote:
On 2007-10-28, piterengel wrote:

On Oct 28, 3:48 am, "Ken Hart" wrote:
"piterengel" wrote in message

groups.com...
snip These are my first two results. I've mounted on camera an EFKE 25
film, I've taken 8 pictures, cut this first part adn put into a tank.
Than I've taken again 8 pictures, the same of first time, cut film and
put un another tank. I've dobe this three times.
Than I've developed first part with ID-13 for 3 mins. Images are well
contrasted BUT NOT enough. I remember I'm trying to obtain LINE works.
With the second part I've used Kodak D-85 for 2.5 mins. SURPRISE!
Everything is disappeared!!! I've a totally empty film, without any
shadow or kind of figure! What's happen?

the D-85: Completely clear, including no edge printing? That's a
processing problem. Either the developer had no activity at all, or you
confused the developer and the fixer, and fixed the film first, completely
clearing it. (Everyone has to make that mistake at least once...I'm waiting
for it to happen to me!)

You might want to take a chunk of film and just put it in the developer to
see if it turns black, and how long it takes.

Assuming that errors can occour, this is not the case. I've prepared
D-85 and immediately put into the tank, so I've developed film, not
fixed. The fact is that everything is disappeared form film, numbers
of pictures and trade mark too. Surely this is an extremely strong
developer, I'm thinking to try again it but diluited ten times.

It seems to me that if you are sure you used the solution for D-85
that you prepared, and get blank without even the edge numbers and
trademarks, before you even fixed the film, then the developer solution
must have been prepared incorrectly or the chemicals you used may
have been mislabelled. Assuming you are using 35mm film.

In my experience, the sheet litho film (Kodak 2553, IIRC) not only has
no edge notches, making printing on the correct side something of an
artistic experience, but also it has no edge markings.

Diluting the developper 10x will not help you.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 07:45:01 up 5 days, 3 min, 1 user, load average: 4.08, 4.08, 4.09

I'm sure both to have developed and not fixed the film and to have
usaed the right chemicals. I think simply D-85 is too strong and
completely unsuitable for Efke 35 mm film. I suspect that the critical
component is acetone, used instead of paraformaldehyde as said before.
Being this the "infectant" but necessary component for ultracontrast
developer, maybe it is too effective into bath.
P.

On Oct 28, 4:01 pm, piterengel wrote:
On Oct 28, 12:53 pm, Jean-David Beyer
wrote:



On 2007-10-28, piterengel wrote:

On Oct 28, 3:48 am, "Ken Hart" wrote:
"piterengel" wrote in message

groups.com...
snip These are my first two results. I've mounted on camera an EFKE 25
film, I've taken 8 pictures, cut this first part adn put into a tank.
Than I've taken again 8 pictures, the same of first time, cut film and
put un another tank. I've dobe this three times.
Than I've developed first part with ID-13 for 3 mins. Images are well
contrasted BUT NOT enough. I remember I'm trying to obtain LINE works.
With the second part I've used Kodak D-85 for 2.5 mins. SURPRISE!
Everything is disappeared!!! I've a totally empty film, without any
shadow or kind of figure! What's happen?

the D-85: Completely clear, including no edge printing? That's a
processing problem. Either the developer had no activity at all, or you
confused the developer and the fixer, and fixed the film first, completely
clearing it. (Everyone has to make that mistake at least once...I'm waiting
for it to happen to me!)

You might want to take a chunk of film and just put it in the developer to
see if it turns black, and how long it takes.

Assuming that errors can occour, this is not the case. I've prepared
D-85 and immediately put into the tank, so I've developed film, not
fixed. The fact is that everything is disappeared form film, numbers
of pictures and trade mark too. Surely this is an extremely strong
developer, I'm thinking to try again it but diluited ten times.

It seems to me that if you are sure you used the solution for D-85
that you prepared, and get blank without even the edge numbers and
trademarks, before you even fixed the film, then the developer solution
must have been prepared incorrectly or the chemicals you used may
have been mislabelled. Assuming you are using 35mm film.

In my experience, the sheet litho film (Kodak 2553, IIRC) not only has
no edge notches, making printing on the correct side something of an
artistic experience, but also it has no edge markings.

Diluting the developper 10x will not help you.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 07:45:01 up 5 days, 3 min, 1 user, load average: 4.08, 4.08, 4.09

I'm sure both to have developed and not fixed the film and to have
usaed the right chemicals. I think simply D-85 is too strong and
completely unsuitable for Efke 35 mm film. I suspect that the critical
component is acetone, used instead of paraformaldehyde as said before.
Being this the "infectant" but necessary component for ultracontrast
developer, maybe it is too effective into bath.
P.

I've found on an old italian darkroom cookbook these two developers.

1) FERRANIA R7

PART A
sodium sulfite 45 g
hydroquinone 10 g
sodium carbonate 30 g
potassium bromide 2 g
water to 500 ml

PART B
sodium hydroxyde 8 g
water to 500 ml

Mix Part A and Part B.

2) AGFA 22

metol 0.8 g
sodium sulfite 40 g
hydroquinone 8 g
potassium carbonate 50 g
potassium bromide 5 g
water to 1000 ml

Both two are given to be very high contrast developers. What do you
think about them?
P.

On 2007-10-28, piterengel wrote:
On Oct 28, 4:01 pm, piterengel wrote:
On Oct 28, 12:53 pm, Jean-David Beyer
wrote:



On 2007-10-28, piterengel wrote:

On Oct 28, 3:48 am, "Ken Hart" wrote:
"piterengel" wrote in message

groups.com...
snip These are my first two results. I've mounted on camera an EFKE 25
film, I've taken 8 pictures, cut this first part adn put into a tank.
Than I've taken again 8 pictures, the same of first time, cut film and
put un another tank. I've dobe this three times.
Than I've developed first part with ID-13 for 3 mins. Images are well
contrasted BUT NOT enough. I remember I'm trying to obtain LINE works.
With the second part I've used Kodak D-85 for 2.5 mins. SURPRISE!
Everything is disappeared!!! I've a totally empty film, without any
shadow or kind of figure! What's happen?

the D-85: Completely clear, including no edge printing? That's a
processing problem. Either the developer had no activity at all, or you
confused the developer and the fixer, and fixed the film first, completely
clearing it. (Everyone has to make that mistake at least once...I'm waiting
for it to happen to me!)

You might want to take a chunk of film and just put it in the developer to
see if it turns black, and how long it takes.

Assuming that errors can occour, this is not the case. I've prepared
D-85 and immediately put into the tank, so I've developed film, not
fixed. The fact is that everything is disappeared form film, numbers
of pictures and trade mark too. Surely this is an extremely strong
developer, I'm thinking to try again it but diluited ten times.

It seems to me that if you are sure you used the solution for D-85
that you prepared, and get blank without even the edge numbers and
trademarks, before you even fixed the film, then the developer solution
must have been prepared incorrectly or the chemicals you used may
have been mislabelled. Assuming you are using 35mm film.

In my experience, the sheet litho film (Kodak 2553, IIRC) not only has
no edge notches, making printing on the correct side something of an
artistic experience, but also it has no edge markings.

Diluting the developper 10x will not help you.

I'm sure both to have developed and not fixed the film and to have
usaed the right chemicals. I think simply D-85 is too strong and
completely unsuitable for Efke 35 mm film. I suspect that the critical
component is acetone, used instead of paraformaldehyde as said before.
Being this the "infectant" but necessary component for ultracontrast
developer, maybe it is too effective into bath.
P.

I never heard of using acetone instead of paraformaldehyde. That might
be a mistake in the formula. The only thing a "too strong" developer
might do is make the image too contrasty (sort-of impossible when
developing lith film), or too foggy. You are not getting fog. You are
not getting anything. If your film really should have edge markings,
then you are not developing enough (at all, actually).

I've found on an old italian darkroom cookbook these two developers.

There are a lot of formulae going around. Most of only historical
interest. I know nothing about these. R7 seems like it would be a
high contrast developer, but nothing like what you would want for
lith film. Agfa 22 might be somewhat higher contrast than R7 or D76,
but not what would normally be required for lith film.

1) FERRANIA R7

PART A
sodium sulfite 45 g
hydroquinone 10 g
sodium carbonate 30 g
potassium bromide 2 g
water to 500 ml

PART B
sodium hydroxyde 8 g
water to 500 ml

Mix Part A and Part B.

2) AGFA 22

metol 0.8 g
sodium sulfite 40 g
hydroquinone 8 g
potassium carbonate 50 g
potassium bromide 5 g
water to 1000 ml

Both two are given to be very high contrast developers. What do you
think about them?
P.



--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 14:05:01 up 5 days, 6:23, 4 users, load average: 4.11, 4.18, 4.16

On Oct 28, 7:13 pm, Jean-David Beyer
wrote:
On 2007-10-28, piterengel wrote:



On Oct 28, 4:01 pm, piterengel wrote:
On Oct 28, 12:53 pm, Jean-David Beyer
wrote:

On 2007-10-28, piterengel wrote:

On Oct 28, 3:48 am, "Ken Hart" wrote:
"piterengel" wrote in message

groups.com...
snip These are my first two results. I've mounted on camera an EFKE 25
film, I've taken 8 pictures, cut this first part adn put into a tank.
Than I've taken again 8 pictures, the same of first time, cut film and
put un another tank. I've dobe this three times.
Than I've developed first part with ID-13 for 3 mins. Images are well
contrasted BUT NOT enough. I remember I'm trying to obtain LINE works.
With the second part I've used Kodak D-85 for 2.5 mins. SURPRISE!
Everything is disappeared!!! I've a totally empty film, without any
shadow or kind of figure! What's happen?

the D-85: Completely clear, including no edge printing? That's a
processing problem. Either the developer had no activity at all, or you
confused the developer and the fixer, and fixed the film first, completely
clearing it. (Everyone has to make that mistake at least once...I'm waiting
for it to happen to me!)

You might want to take a chunk of film and just put it in the developer to
see if it turns black, and how long it takes.

Assuming that errors can occour, this is not the case. I've prepared
D-85 and immediately put into the tank, so I've developed film, not
fixed. The fact is that everything is disappeared form film, numbers
of pictures and trade mark too. Surely this is an extremely strong
developer, I'm thinking to try again it but diluited ten times.

It seems to me that if you are sure you used the solution for D-85
that you prepared, and get blank without even the edge numbers and
trademarks, before you even fixed the film, then the developer solution
must have been prepared incorrectly or the chemicals you used may
have been mislabelled. Assuming you are using 35mm film.

In my experience, the sheet litho film (Kodak 2553, IIRC) not only has
no edge notches, making printing on the correct side something of an
artistic experience, but also it has no edge markings.

Diluting the developper 10x will not help you.

I'm sure both to have developed and not fixed the film and to have
usaed the right chemicals. I think simply D-85 is too strong and
completely unsuitable for Efke 35 mm film. I suspect that the critical
component is acetone, used instead of paraformaldehyde as said before.
Being this the "infectant" but necessary component for ultracontrast
developer, maybe it is too effective into bath.
P.

I never heard of using acetone instead of paraformaldehyde. That might
be a mistake in the formula. The only thing a "too strong" developer
might do is make the image too contrasty (sort-of impossible when
developing lith film), or too foggy. You are not getting fog. You are
not getting anything. If your film really should have edge markings,
then you are not developing enough (at all, actually).



I've found on an old italian darkroom cookbook these two developers.

There are a lot of formulae going around. Most of only historical
interest. I know nothing about these. R7 seems like it would be a
high contrast developer, but nothing like what you would want for
lith film. Agfa 22 might be somewhat higher contrast than R7 or D76,
but not what would normally be required for lith film.





1) FERRANIA R7

PART A
sodium sulfite 45 g
hydroquinone 10 g
sodium carbonate 30 g
potassium bromide 2 g
water to 500 ml

PART B
sodium hydroxyde 8 g
water to 500 ml

Mix Part A and Part B.

2) AGFA 22

metol 0.8 g
sodium sulfite 40 g
hydroquinone 8 g
potassium carbonate 50 g
potassium bromide 5 g
water to 1000 ml

Both two are given to be very high contrast developers. What do you
think about them?
P.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 14:05:01 up 5 days, 6:23, 4 users, load average: 4.11, 4.18, 4.16

The fact is that EFKE KB 25 is NOT a lith film, but a normal b/w film.
As I've said in the first post and in its title my pourpose is to try
to emulate lith film using normal bw negatives choosing the
appropriate developer. This because in Italy it is quite impossible to
find real lith films. That's all.
P.

On 10/28/2007 7:01 AM piterengel spake thus:

On Oct 28, 12:53 pm, Jean-David Beyer
wrote:

It seems to me that if you are sure you used the solution for D-85
that you prepared, and get blank without even the edge numbers and
trademarks, before you even fixed the film, then the developer solution
must have been prepared incorrectly or the chemicals you used may
have been mislabelled. Assuming you are using 35mm film.

In my experience, the sheet litho film (Kodak 2553, IIRC) not only has
no edge notches, making printing on the correct side something of an
artistic experience, but also it has no edge markings.

Diluting the developper 10x will not help you.

I'm sure both to have developed and not fixed the film and to have
usaed the right chemicals. I think simply D-85 is too strong and
completely unsuitable for Efke 35 mm film.

While I can sympathize with your frustration here, I think you're
mistaken in thinking that somehow a developer that's "too strong" for
film would give completely blank results. Think about it: if a developer
is too strong (i.e., too active), you're going to get something like
completely *black* film, not completely blank. Something else is
happening here. (Sorry, don't know enough about photochemistry to be of
any help.) Richard K.?

"piterengel" wrote

in Italy it is quite impossible to
find real lith films.

I think you are looking in the wrong places.

Lith film is very easily available in Italy. It's easily
available everywhere - Ulan Bator to Ultima Thule.

Finding it on the internet if you do not know the "magic word"
is, of course, impossible.

You might start with Agfa and ask them:

http://www.agfa.com/en/gs/about_us/w...?countryId=108

Or Kodak - though they tend to be hopeless, kinda like their web site.

http://graphics.kodak.com/US/ContactUs/default.htm

Or contact a local offset printer and ask them.

You would be looking for someone like this, only located in
Italy.
http://www.valleylitho.com/acatalog/...plies_179.html

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com