Nikon Coolpix 5700 severe flash underexposure problem

bob commented courteously ...

Are you saying there are NO controls on the back of the
vivitar flash? Other than the power switch and the test
button, that is... If there are no controls, then you could
not have tested the flash in manual mode (the flash, not
the camera) as you previously indicated!

There are not controls, such as "auto" or "manual". There is, of
course, an on-off switch, a test button, an auto check light, a
ready light, and two sliding scales to do a rough calculation of
speed and aperture at a given ISO and with a given focal lenght.

Also, the flash hood pulls out to change from 28mm to 85MM

Does the front of the flash say 728AFNi?

Yes, it does.

With a flash in auto mode, it knows how you set the camera,
and it takes care of the exposure. The flash has a sensor
on the front that measures the light. You don't need to be
accurate, because the flash is. If your flash only has TTL
mode and doesn't have auto mode, then you wouldn't be able
to try that out.

My understanding from reading the manual is that the *only*
"auto" thing this model flash can do is "auto focus", *not*
"auto exposure". That's my interpretation of what "AF" in
727AFNi means. And, the manual cover says "728 Auto Focus
Flashgun". That's what the 1/2" square red sensor on the front
of the flash is for, *not* for the 728 to control its own
exposure.

Its when you have a flash in manual mode that you need to
be accurate, because then nothing is doing any metering,
but if your flash doesn't have a manual mode, then you can
not try that either.

If your flash doesn't have a manual mode, then using manual
settings on the camera aren't going to help.

But, it *does* work in manual mode, but there're two problems:
1) getting a somewhat accurate distance measurement and doing
something about the 5700's smallest aperture of f/8.0.

I haven't tried full manual on the 5700 in a museum environment
yet, but when I tried it in long (20-30 foot) shots around my
house, I found I could up the shutter speed past 1/125, where it
is supposed to synch, and "simulate" the correct exposure.

I understand manual flash and I understand guide numbers. It's
pretty simple: set the shutter to 1/60 or 1/125, divide the
guide number (92 at ISO) by the distance in feet, and voila!,
you get an f/stop.


Bob, I appreciate your trying to help me, but this discussion is
going nowhere. I see *nothing* on the 728 itself or in the
manual that would indicate that it does *any* exposure
calculation at all, nor is there anything that says it
communicated with the 5700 in any way.

Nikon Tech Support, in the same breath as saying they won't
support a 3rd party flash, insist that the *entire* flash
exposure determination is through the Speedlight's sensor.

I have a last question for you: Did you go to
alt.binaries.photos and actually look at the pictures I posted?
If you did, you would have seen that I get *exactly* the same
crappy very underexposed images with the 5700's built-in
Speedlight as I do with the Vivitar 728. Are you now going to
tell me I don't know how to use that also?

I want help with this, but I'm not an idiot. The Speedlight-only
should work reliably in all shooting conditions for its range
(up to 13 feet) and the Vivitar should work reliably up to its
range of 23 feet. I just don't see why you seem to think I don't
know how to use the Vivitar, but if there's something obvious
I'm missing, please point it out.

--
Jerry Rivers

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:52:46 -0500, All Things Mopar
wrote:

Hi, All!


(much snipped)

I collect automobile pictures for a hobby, both digital camera
and scans. Much of the time, I am outdoors at cars shows and
city streets taking pictures some people call "street
shooting", but I also frequent large museums such as the Henry
Ford Museum and the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, both in
Michigan.

Because I want to shoot car pictures in museum settings, I
need more range than is provided by the 5700's built-in
Speedlight, so I bought a Vivitar 728 external flash with a
guide number of 92 at ISO 100.

The Vivitar 728 is an ordinary "dumb" electronic flash in that
it has *no* set-uo or zoom or any options. It's only purpose
is to pour a lot of light onto the subject. I verified at the
camera store where I bought it that it could synch up with my
5700's hot shoe and fire either by itself or with Nikon's
Speedlight, depending on how I have it set-up.

About 1/3 of the time, my flash pictures with either the
Vivitar or Nikon Speedlight are quite good. Another 1/3 are
underexposed by maybe 2 f/stops but are easily fixable in my
favorite editor, Jasc's Paint Shop Pro 9. The remainder are 4-
6 f/stops under and look like the proverbial black cat in a
coal bin.


Thank you in advance for any help.

--
Jerry Rivers

--
ATM


Jerry,

This may be of NO use whatsoever to you, since I don't have the
equipment you do. But I do have 3 Nikons - one 950 and two 995s and
I've encountered similar problems with exposure variability. My
solution is rather crude, and certainly not fully automatic.

I have a Slave Flash unit (from many years ago in film photography)
and a solid state detector to trigger it. I mount it on a tripod
close enough to the subject, aim the trigger sensor at the camera, and
use Guide numbers determined experimentally. It may not be state of
the art, but it WORKS!

Just my input.

Olin McDaniel

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:52:46 -0500, All Things Mopar
wrote:

Hi, All!


(much snipped)

I collect automobile pictures for a hobby, both digital camera
and scans. Much of the time, I am outdoors at cars shows and
city streets taking pictures some people call "street
shooting", but I also frequent large museums such as the Henry
Ford Museum and the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, both in
Michigan.

Because I want to shoot car pictures in museum settings, I
need more range than is provided by the 5700's built-in
Speedlight, so I bought a Vivitar 728 external flash with a
guide number of 92 at ISO 100.

The Vivitar 728 is an ordinary "dumb" electronic flash in that
it has *no* set-uo or zoom or any options. It's only purpose
is to pour a lot of light onto the subject. I verified at the
camera store where I bought it that it could synch up with my
5700's hot shoe and fire either by itself or with Nikon's
Speedlight, depending on how I have it set-up.

About 1/3 of the time, my flash pictures with either the
Vivitar or Nikon Speedlight are quite good. Another 1/3 are
underexposed by maybe 2 f/stops but are easily fixable in my
favorite editor, Jasc's Paint Shop Pro 9. The remainder are 4-
6 f/stops under and look like the proverbial black cat in a
coal bin.


Thank you in advance for any help.

--
Jerry Rivers

--
ATM


Jerry,

This may be of NO use whatsoever to you, since I don't have the
equipment you do. But I do have 3 Nikons - one 950 and two 995s and
I've encountered similar problems with exposure variability. My
solution is rather crude, and certainly not fully automatic.

I have a Slave Flash unit (from many years ago in film photography)
and a solid state detector to trigger it. I mount it on a tripod
close enough to the subject, aim the trigger sensor at the camera, and
use Guide numbers determined experimentally. It may not be state of
the art, but it WORKS!

Just my input.

Olin McDaniel

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:52:46 -0500, All Things Mopar
wrote:

Hi, All!


(much snipped)

I collect automobile pictures for a hobby, both digital camera
and scans. Much of the time, I am outdoors at cars shows and
city streets taking pictures some people call "street
shooting", but I also frequent large museums such as the Henry
Ford Museum and the Walter P. Chrysler Museum, both in
Michigan.

Because I want to shoot car pictures in museum settings, I
need more range than is provided by the 5700's built-in
Speedlight, so I bought a Vivitar 728 external flash with a
guide number of 92 at ISO 100.

The Vivitar 728 is an ordinary "dumb" electronic flash in that
it has *no* set-uo or zoom or any options. It's only purpose
is to pour a lot of light onto the subject. I verified at the
camera store where I bought it that it could synch up with my
5700's hot shoe and fire either by itself or with Nikon's
Speedlight, depending on how I have it set-up.

About 1/3 of the time, my flash pictures with either the
Vivitar or Nikon Speedlight are quite good. Another 1/3 are
underexposed by maybe 2 f/stops but are easily fixable in my
favorite editor, Jasc's Paint Shop Pro 9. The remainder are 4-
6 f/stops under and look like the proverbial black cat in a
coal bin.


Thank you in advance for any help.

--
Jerry Rivers

--
ATM


Jerry,

This may be of NO use whatsoever to you, since I don't have the
equipment you do. But I do have 3 Nikons - one 950 and two 995s and
I've encountered similar problems with exposure variability. My
solution is rather crude, and certainly not fully automatic.

I have a Slave Flash unit (from many years ago in film photography)
and a solid state detector to trigger it. I mount it on a tripod
close enough to the subject, aim the trigger sensor at the camera, and
use Guide numbers determined experimentally. It may not be state of
the art, but it WORKS!

Just my input.

Olin McDaniel

Olin K. McDaniel commented courteously ...

This may be of NO use whatsoever to you, since I don't
have
the equipment you do. But I do have 3 Nikons - one 950
and
two 995s and I've encountered similar problems with
exposure variability. My solution is rather crude, and
certainly not fully automatic.

I have a Slave Flash unit (from many years ago in film
photography) and a solid state detector to trigger it. I
mount it on a tripod close enough to the subject, aim the
trigger sensor at the camera, and use Guide numbers
determined experimentally. It may not be state of the
art,
but it WORKS!

Hi, Olin.

I can't do much right now until I get my 5700 back from
Nikon Service - fixed I hope!

As I mentioned in my OP, the problem of variability also
exists with the 5700's built-in Speedlight, not just the
Vivitar 728. Nikon basically ducked the entire non-Nikon
external flash and suggested I go fully manual.

I may have to go full manual with my Vivitar, and I'm
thinking of buying one of those home improvement store laser
rangefinders to do the distance for the guide number. As you
correctly say, it ain't state-of-the-art but it'll work.

Right now, I'd say it is 50/50 that my Nikon is broken; the
other view is that Nikon just did a ****ty job of designing
the flash exposure electronics and software. I hope it's
broke and that they fix it, I'm just not holding my breath.

Thanks for your suggestions.

--
Jerry Rivers

Olin K. McDaniel commented courteously ...

This may be of NO use whatsoever to you, since I don't
have
the equipment you do. But I do have 3 Nikons - one 950
and
two 995s and I've encountered similar problems with
exposure variability. My solution is rather crude, and
certainly not fully automatic.

I have a Slave Flash unit (from many years ago in film
photography) and a solid state detector to trigger it. I
mount it on a tripod close enough to the subject, aim the
trigger sensor at the camera, and use Guide numbers
determined experimentally. It may not be state of the
art,
but it WORKS!

Hi, Olin.

I can't do much right now until I get my 5700 back from
Nikon Service - fixed I hope!

As I mentioned in my OP, the problem of variability also
exists with the 5700's built-in Speedlight, not just the
Vivitar 728. Nikon basically ducked the entire non-Nikon
external flash and suggested I go fully manual.

I may have to go full manual with my Vivitar, and I'm
thinking of buying one of those home improvement store laser
rangefinders to do the distance for the guide number. As you
correctly say, it ain't state-of-the-art but it'll work.

Right now, I'd say it is 50/50 that my Nikon is broken; the
other view is that Nikon just did a ****ty job of designing
the flash exposure electronics and software. I hope it's
broke and that they fix it, I'm just not holding my breath.

Thanks for your suggestions.

--
Jerry Rivers

All Things Mopar wrote in
:

Bob, I appreciate your trying to help me, but this discussion is
going nowhere.

When you get the camera back in three weeks, you will find out for
sure if there is a problem with it.

I don't think you are an idiot, or I would not be conversing with
you.

I tried to find your pictures, but my server doesn't have
alt.binaries.photos. If you want to post them someplace else I'll
take a look. I don't know if it will be possible to determine
anything other than to verify that they are underexposed.

The spec sheet on vivitar's website leads me to believe that your
flash has an auto mode, and that it does not have a manual mode.
But if that's not the case, it wouldn't be the first time a
manufacturer had misleading info on it's website.

When you get your camera back, if they say there's nothing wrong
with it, and if you want to figure out how to get things to work
right, post a new message (or email me) and maybe we can figure it
out. I think there is something you're missing, and I think it
probably isn't obvious.

Bob

--
Delete the inverse SPAM to reply

All Things Mopar wrote in
:

Bob, I appreciate your trying to help me, but this discussion is
going nowhere.

When you get the camera back in three weeks, you will find out for
sure if there is a problem with it.

I don't think you are an idiot, or I would not be conversing with
you.

I tried to find your pictures, but my server doesn't have
alt.binaries.photos. If you want to post them someplace else I'll
take a look. I don't know if it will be possible to determine
anything other than to verify that they are underexposed.

The spec sheet on vivitar's website leads me to believe that your
flash has an auto mode, and that it does not have a manual mode.
But if that's not the case, it wouldn't be the first time a
manufacturer had misleading info on it's website.

When you get your camera back, if they say there's nothing wrong
with it, and if you want to figure out how to get things to work
right, post a new message (or email me) and maybe we can figure it
out. I think there is something you're missing, and I think it
probably isn't obvious.

Bob

--
Delete the inverse SPAM to reply

bob commented courteously ...

I don't think you are an idiot, or I would not be
conversing with you.

Bob, I'm sorry if I got pevish with you. I apologize. It's
just that so many people - mainly at Nikon - have basically
insulted my intelligence for so long I get short-termpered.

I tried to find your pictures, but my server doesn't have
alt.binaries.photos. If you want to post them someplace
else I'll take a look. I don't know if it will be possible
to determine anything other than to verify that they are
underexposed.

Is the E-mail in your header correct, Bob? I'll try E-
mailing you my pics.

The spec sheet on vivitar's website leads me to believe
that your flash has an auto mode, and that it does not
have
a manual mode. But if that's not the case, it wouldn't be
the first time a manufacturer had misleading info on it's
website.

I've looked at Vivitar's website also. And, I've re-perused
my meager manual. If I understand it right, the 728 is
*only* TTL-auto with a Nikon or Canon autofocus SLR. Not
even sure if they mean "DSLR", since it doesn't say so.

In any event, as best I've been able to determine through
testing, as well as from both phone and E-mail with Nikon,
the 5700's normal daylight/available light auto exposure
system is completely disabled when it is in "speedlight"
mode.

It determines that by the setting in Set-Up, which I have
set to "Auto". Then, I set the built-in Speedlight to be in
in Fill Flash mode, so it will always fire. If I turn my
Vivitar "on", the 5700 fires that, else, it fires the
Speedlight. But, in neither case is the auto exposure system
operating. When I want to go back to daylight/available
light, I set the Speedlight to only fire when it needs to.

When you get your camera back, if they say there's nothing
wrong with it, and if you want to figure out how to get
things to work right, post a new message (or email me) and
maybe we can figure it out. I think there is something
you're missing, and I think it probably isn't obvious.

Bob, I never dismiss operator error, here. But, well prior
to posting here and my multi-go-around with Nikon, I got
other opinions that strongly suggest to me that the thing is
either broken or very poorly designed. I just don't have the
variability with either my old Fuji 4900 or my wife's little
Kodak 6330 under exactly the same conditions (I tested them
and reported same to Nikon but those people are incredibly
arrogant!).

Richard Tomkins in his reply to me on Oct. 28 in this thread
confirmed that he, too, had great variability with his 5700
in Speedlight mode.

As I indicated in my previous post, if I have to, I'll go
full-manual and hope the museum guys don't go crazy when
they see me aim a laser at their cars!

--
Jerry Rivers

bob commented courteously ...

I don't think you are an idiot, or I would not be
conversing with you.

Bob, I'm sorry if I got pevish with you. I apologize. It's
just that so many people - mainly at Nikon - have basically
insulted my intelligence for so long I get short-termpered.

I tried to find your pictures, but my server doesn't have
alt.binaries.photos. If you want to post them someplace
else I'll take a look. I don't know if it will be possible
to determine anything other than to verify that they are
underexposed.

Is the E-mail in your header correct, Bob? I'll try E-
mailing you my pics.

The spec sheet on vivitar's website leads me to believe
that your flash has an auto mode, and that it does not
have
a manual mode. But if that's not the case, it wouldn't be
the first time a manufacturer had misleading info on it's
website.

I've looked at Vivitar's website also. And, I've re-perused
my meager manual. If I understand it right, the 728 is
*only* TTL-auto with a Nikon or Canon autofocus SLR. Not
even sure if they mean "DSLR", since it doesn't say so.

In any event, as best I've been able to determine through
testing, as well as from both phone and E-mail with Nikon,
the 5700's normal daylight/available light auto exposure
system is completely disabled when it is in "speedlight"
mode.

It determines that by the setting in Set-Up, which I have
set to "Auto". Then, I set the built-in Speedlight to be in
in Fill Flash mode, so it will always fire. If I turn my
Vivitar "on", the 5700 fires that, else, it fires the
Speedlight. But, in neither case is the auto exposure system
operating. When I want to go back to daylight/available
light, I set the Speedlight to only fire when it needs to.

When you get your camera back, if they say there's nothing
wrong with it, and if you want to figure out how to get
things to work right, post a new message (or email me) and
maybe we can figure it out. I think there is something
you're missing, and I think it probably isn't obvious.

Bob, I never dismiss operator error, here. But, well prior
to posting here and my multi-go-around with Nikon, I got
other opinions that strongly suggest to me that the thing is
either broken or very poorly designed. I just don't have the
variability with either my old Fuji 4900 or my wife's little
Kodak 6330 under exactly the same conditions (I tested them
and reported same to Nikon but those people are incredibly
arrogant!).

Richard Tomkins in his reply to me on Oct. 28 in this thread
confirmed that he, too, had great variability with his 5700
in Speedlight mode.

As I indicated in my previous post, if I have to, I'll go
full-manual and hope the museum guys don't go crazy when
they see me aim a laser at their cars!

--
Jerry Rivers