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Inkjet printing both sides



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 17th 08, 03:16 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
Arthur Entlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 80
Default Inkjet printing both sides

In a forum such as this, clarity and detail can count. Some errors made
due to incomplete information can cause irreversible damage to equipment.

I am not implying your intent was anything but honorable, but as you
yourself made note in the aftermath, some inkjet papers you recognized
are inappropriate for use in laser printers, and you would not use them,
but it is probably dangerous to make the assumption others would know
offhand which were safe and which were not.

As they say, "sometimes the devil is in the details".

I can attest, having done many tests and reviews on papers, both inkjet
and laser, that packaging can be misleading or remiss in details such as
warning people not to use an inkjet paper type in a laser printer. For
instance, something that just states "Works on all inkjet printers"
doesn't necessarily preclude "doesn't work with laser printers". Also,
many people do not have a clear understanding of the nature of the
technologies they work with, and that laser printers, as an example,
require high temperatures to work which inkjets do not.

Art


rjn wrote:

Arthur Entlich wrote:


Some inkjet coatings, and the glossy are more likely, can be a type of
plastic that will melt with the heat of a laser printer fuser. Some
people have ruined their laser printer's fuser doing this, so beware!



I would expect any papers not suited to laser printing
to say so on the carton, although perhaps inadequately
emphasized as "Use only in inkjet printers" or some such.


Obviously, some inkjet paper coatings survive the heat,
but you need to be careful.



I've never had a problem doing it, but that could be just
the luck of the draw on the media. I do have some early
HP JetSeries stock that is clearly a plastic base, and
that I stuff I never fed to the LaserJet for this very reason.

Of course, if the OP doesn't own a laser printer, and
buys an old LaserJet cheaply on eBay, then not much
is at risk :-)

--
Regards, Bob Niland
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.

  #22  
Old March 17th 08, 04:33 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
Paul Furman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,367
Default Inkjet printing both sides

Terry Pinnell wrote:
Ron Hunter wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:
Somewhat OT for both groups (I'd appreciate a pointer to a more
appropriate one), but I imagine there's some expertise on this subject
here.

I want to make a birthday card by folding a sheet of the A4 'Super
quality photo paper for inkjet printers' that I have at hand, bought
from WH Smith. But I find that on the non-glossy side I get a smeary
wet mess with all the 'paper type' settings I've tried. Plain, Matte -
Heavy, Photo, Premium Semi Gloss - even Inkjet Transparency! If the
ink will stay on a transparent sheet of plastic with that last option,
I'm darned if I can see why it won't do so on this stuff? Is it
deliberately 'waxed' or something?

You don't mention what printer you are using. Some modern inkjet
printers are designed so that the ink and paper react chemically, and
you NEED to use the recommended papers in order to get the best results.
Using paper not designed to be printed on both sides can result in
poor results, as you have noted. I can only suggest that you print the
side that smears first, and give it some time (several minutes) to dry
before printing the other side. This may give acceptable results.


Sorry, Ron, I meant to do so; it's an Epson C82.


You can also just try any card stock. The colors may not come out quite
right but it may be good enough. That printer doesn't absolutely need
special paper.

But when I said 'smeary wet mess', I was being precise! Ink was
actually 'puddled' in several cases, with original image barely
recognisable. That's as it emerged from printer, so no question of
allowing it to dry.

  #23  
Old March 18th 08, 01:38 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
tomm42
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 682
Default Inkjet printing both sides

On Mar 16, 7:12 am, Terry Pinnell
wrote:
Somewhat OT for both groups (I'd appreciate a pointer to a more
appropriate one), but I imagine there's some expertise on this subject
here.

I want to make a birthday card by folding a sheet of the A4 'Super
quality photo paper for inkjet printers' that I have at hand, bought
from WH Smith. But I find that on the non-glossy side I get a smeary
wet mess with all the 'paper type' settings I've tried. Plain, Matte -
Heavy, Photo, Premium Semi Gloss - even Inkjet Transparency! If the
ink will stay on a transparent sheet of plastic with that last option,
I'm darned if I can see why it won't do so on this stuff? Is it
deliberately 'waxed' or something?

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK



Several things to try:
1) Use the plain paper setting when printing on the back of a paper.
Trying to print on the back of RC paper just won't work do to what you
found out, no ink jet receptive coating, plain paper will work with
inkjet inks.
2) Inkpress makes a reasonably priced glossy paper that has a real
paper base, don't know if this is available where you live, I got mine
from www.inkjetart.com.
3) I have used fine art paper in the past for making cards and it
worked very well.
4) Use a double sided paper, many are available, Ilford I believe has
one.
5)You can print on the paper you have, then purchase a card stock
paper, print on the card stock for the inside text, then mount the
photo nicely on the front of the card.
6) Don't try all sorts work around just because you have this paper,
it is not suited for the job and you should try some other paper. All
the suggestions here don't sound like they will make a nice card.


Tom
  #24  
Old March 18th 08, 04:28 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
MyVeryOwnSelf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Inkjet printing both sides

But what about the opposite? Is there any problem first printing one
side with a laser printer (or copier for that matter), then
ink-jet-printing the second side?


It is the same problem if you are using an inkjet coated paper. It
isn't the ink that is the problem, it is the paper itself which is not
designed for heat.


So plain old copier paper is ok?
  #25  
Old March 19th 08, 03:23 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
Arthur Entlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 80
Default Inkjet printing both sides

Inkjet printers use no heat or fusing process. The only heat that is
generated on thermal inkjet head printers, is to heat the ink to propel
it onto the paper, which doesn't heat the paper. The only issues with
paper choices for inkjet printers a

Is the paper intact such that surfaces or glues, or other parts won't
flake off, or disintegrate during the printing or transport process?

Is the paper flexible enough to go through the paper transport if it has
to be curved or curled to get through?

Is the paper thin enough to clear through the paper transport? Is the
paper thick or rigid enough to get through the printer, and not get too
wet and soft, or bleed ink through the back?

Are the paper's edges straight and smooth enough to not get caught or
snagged on something along the way through the printer?


In terms of quality of the result:

Not all papers, even ones which claim "works with all inkjet printers"
will necessarily give the best quality print. Due to differences in ink
formulations (dye, hybrid, pigment, pigment and resin, etc), and the
technologies used in inkjet printers (Thermal versus piezo) papers react
differently. There is a reason why some inkjet brand papers do a better
job than generic papers, and it may take some experimentation to find
the right paper for your inks. Some papers will state the brands or
models or ink type that paper is recommended for, others, as stated,
will claim good for all but quality will vary with the printer you use.

Some papers will exaggerate banding, cause the ink to bead, not dry
correctly, may smear or the ink may transfer to the rollers in the
printer. Some papers will ripple, pucker, curl as they dry, cause
surface or gloss differential or bronzing between areas which have ink,
or certain color inks, and areas which do not. In general if you are
using OEM inks and use the OEM papers for that brand, they have been
tested or formulated to work together.

However, some at costly, and certain paper surfaces are not available
OEM so you may wish to experiment.

Papers with loose bonded fibers and which are uncoated and coarse
surfaces will tend to bleed considerably

Thin papers will tend to lack opacity which may make them not usable for
double sided printing. Lowering the amount of ink (by lowering
saturation and darkness or density adjustments in the driver) or by
using a profile for draft printing, or a profile for a plastic film may
use less ink than matte or plain paper settings.

Papers which have a true plastic coated or wax coated surface will
usually not take water-based inkjet inks, and they will bead up, smear,
or not dry at all or take a long time to do so.

Some inkjet specialized paper will has a seemingly plastic surface, but
it may actually be a swellable polymer (if you wet your finer and put it
on a corner of the paper and the paper sticks to your finger, it is
likely a swellable polymer type. Touching the paper with wet fingers
will ruin the area touched. It may also be a porous plastic which
allows the ink to go through the plastic surface and get locked into a
receptive ceramic or paper surface below it. Also, some papers are
coated with a very glossy ceramic surface which has very small pores in
it to allow the ink to enter a lower layer and get locked in and waterproof.

Some plastic films, some transparent, some translucent, and some opaque
white may have a special ink receptive coating on it. In general, films
of this nature which indicate they are for laser printers WILL not have
that coating and although they won't damage your inkjet printer, the ink
will not hold or dye on the surface. Such materials which are designated
for inkjet use should NOT be used in a laser printer, as the plastic
itself and the coating may both not be able to tolerate the heat the
laser fuser creates.

In general, standard bond papers, even those designated for inkjet use,
which are not coated on either side, can be used in both laser and
inkjet printers, as can most laser printer paper. Most "plain" papers
and card stocks which to not have other issues (too thick, etc) will
work in an inkjet printer, but the quality of the image will be
compromised due to "dot gain" or color bleeding.

In general, inks which use pigment colorants will hold the image
together better than dye colorant types with plain paper types.

Art


MyVeryOwnSelf wrote:
But what about the opposite? Is there any problem first printing one
side with a laser printer (or copier for that matter), then
ink-jet-printing the second side?


It is the same problem if you are using an inkjet coated paper. It
isn't the ink that is the problem, it is the paper itself which is not
designed for heat.


So plain old copier paper is ok?

  #26  
Old March 19th 08, 10:02 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
Richard Steinfeld[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Inkjet printing both sides

Terry Pinnell wrote:
Nonsense, paper is coated on one side to keep costs down.
There is double sided photopaper, e.g. Kodak Picture Pater CAT 807 7448,
which is reasonable priced.
You can also glue 2 sheets together.


Thanks both.

I suspect 2 glued sheets would be too hard to fold neatly


I don't recall your saying what kind of work you wanted to create. I
think that one approach could be to print your photos on the expensive
side, and use the opposite side for text, line art, graphics -- etc.

Richard
  #27  
Old March 19th 08, 11:24 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
Terry Pinnell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 99
Default Inkjet printing both sides

Arthur Entlich wrote:

Inkjet printers use no heat or fusing process. The only heat that is
generated on thermal inkjet head printers, is to heat the ink to propel
it onto the paper, which doesn't heat the paper. The only issues with
paper choices for inkjet printers a

Is the paper intact such that surfaces or glues, or other parts won't
flake off, or disintegrate during the printing or transport process?

Is the paper flexible enough to go through the paper transport if it has
to be curved or curled to get through?

Is the paper thin enough to clear through the paper transport? Is the
paper thick or rigid enough to get through the printer, and not get too
wet and soft, or bleed ink through the back?

Are the paper's edges straight and smooth enough to not get caught or
snagged on something along the way through the printer?


In terms of quality of the result:

Not all papers, even ones which claim "works with all inkjet printers"
will necessarily give the best quality print. Due to differences in ink
formulations (dye, hybrid, pigment, pigment and resin, etc), and the
technologies used in inkjet printers (Thermal versus piezo) papers react
differently. There is a reason why some inkjet brand papers do a better
job than generic papers, and it may take some experimentation to find
the right paper for your inks. Some papers will state the brands or
models or ink type that paper is recommended for, others, as stated,
will claim good for all but quality will vary with the printer you use.

Some papers will exaggerate banding, cause the ink to bead, not dry
correctly, may smear or the ink may transfer to the rollers in the
printer. Some papers will ripple, pucker, curl as they dry, cause
surface or gloss differential or bronzing between areas which have ink,
or certain color inks, and areas which do not. In general if you are
using OEM inks and use the OEM papers for that brand, they have been
tested or formulated to work together.

However, some at costly, and certain paper surfaces are not available
OEM so you may wish to experiment.

Papers with loose bonded fibers and which are uncoated and coarse
surfaces will tend to bleed considerably

Thin papers will tend to lack opacity which may make them not usable for
double sided printing. Lowering the amount of ink (by lowering
saturation and darkness or density adjustments in the driver) or by
using a profile for draft printing, or a profile for a plastic film may
use less ink than matte or plain paper settings.

Papers which have a true plastic coated or wax coated surface will
usually not take water-based inkjet inks, and they will bead up, smear,
or not dry at all or take a long time to do so.

Some inkjet specialized paper will has a seemingly plastic surface, but
it may actually be a swellable polymer (if you wet your finer and put it
on a corner of the paper and the paper sticks to your finger, it is
likely a swellable polymer type. Touching the paper with wet fingers
will ruin the area touched. It may also be a porous plastic which
allows the ink to go through the plastic surface and get locked into a
receptive ceramic or paper surface below it. Also, some papers are
coated with a very glossy ceramic surface which has very small pores in
it to allow the ink to enter a lower layer and get locked in and waterproof.

Some plastic films, some transparent, some translucent, and some opaque
white may have a special ink receptive coating on it. In general, films
of this nature which indicate they are for laser printers WILL not have
that coating and although they won't damage your inkjet printer, the ink
will not hold or dye on the surface. Such materials which are designated
for inkjet use should NOT be used in a laser printer, as the plastic
itself and the coating may both not be able to tolerate the heat the
laser fuser creates.

In general, standard bond papers, even those designated for inkjet use,
which are not coated on either side, can be used in both laser and
inkjet printers, as can most laser printer paper. Most "plain" papers
and card stocks which to not have other issues (too thick, etc) will
work in an inkjet printer, but the quality of the image will be
compromised due to "dot gain" or color bleeding.

In general, inks which use pigment colorants will hold the image
together better than dye colorant types with plain paper types.

Art


Great, thanks Art. Goes into my file for future reference. Meanwhile
can anyone recommend a double-sided glossy inkjet paper please, UK
online supplied? I want gloss on both sides. Just bought 25 sheets of
A4, 150g 'Photo Gloss' from www.photopaperdirect.com, but that is matt
on the back.

BTW, after much frustration I eventually made my finished card by
printing images on the glossy side of my original paper, like this:

.-------------------------------------.
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Back | | Front ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Inside Left | | Inside Left ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
'-------------------------------------'

I folded it (vertically and horizontally) *before* printing, which I
felt would minimise the risk of spoiling the result by the
considerable handling/squeezing necessary for to get decent creases.
The disadvantage of this was that the slightly raised creases had a
little ink on them in places. (Tipp-Ex to the rescue!)

The major problem I had was getting the images and gaps positioned
correctly for the folds. I was using PaintShop Pro 8, but I'm darned
if I've ever properly understood why the Print Preview can't give a
workably accurate representation of what I'll actually get. In the end
I resorted to trial/error, using b/w economy mode. If anyone has any
practical advice on this aspect I'd appreciate hearing it please.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

  #28  
Old March 19th 08, 11:30 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
Terry Pinnell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 99
Default Inkjet printing both sides

Terry Pinnell wrote, including a
silly typo. South west section should be Inside Right:


.-------------------------------------.
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Back | | Front ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Inside Right | | Inside Left ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
'-------------------------------------'

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK
  #29  
Old March 19th 08, 02:14 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
Arthur Entlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 80
Default Inkjet printing both sides

That's what I was trying to explain via this word description in a
previous email, perhaps not very effectively...

Also, if you print the card the right way and do a four way fold, if

you print the front and back in one direction, and the inside panels
upside down and fold it, you can print the whole card on one sheet on
one side. Using a full letter size (8.5" x 11" page, the card will end
up folded dimensions of 5.5" x 4.25" front surface with the two inside
panels being 5.5" x 8.5" total.

Art





Terry Pinnell wrote:


Great, thanks Art. Goes into my file for future reference. Meanwhile
can anyone recommend a double-sided glossy inkjet paper please, UK
online supplied? I want gloss on both sides. Just bought 25 sheets of
A4, 150g 'Photo Gloss' from www.photopaperdirect.com, but that is matt
on the back.

BTW, after much frustration I eventually made my finished card by
printing images on the glossy side of my original paper, like this:

.-------------------------------------.
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Back | | Front ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
|.----------------. .----------------.|
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Inside Left | | Inside Left ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| | | ||
|| Top of image | | Top of image ||
|'----------------' '----------------'|
'-------------------------------------'

I folded it (vertically and horizontally) *before* printing, which I
felt would minimise the risk of spoiling the result by the
considerable handling/squeezing necessary for to get decent creases.
The disadvantage of this was that the slightly raised creases had a
little ink on them in places. (Tipp-Ex to the rescue!)

The major problem I had was getting the images and gaps positioned
correctly for the folds. I was using PaintShop Pro 8, but I'm darned
if I've ever properly understood why the Print Preview can't give a
workably accurate representation of what I'll actually get. In the end
I resorted to trial/error, using b/w economy mode. If anyone has any
practical advice on this aspect I'd appreciate hearing it please.

  #30  
Old March 19th 08, 08:40 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers
rjn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Inkjet printing both sides

On Mar 18, 9:23 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:

Inkjet printers use no heat or fusing process. The only heat that is
generated on thermal inkjet head printers, is to heat the ink to propel
it onto the paper, which doesn't heat the paper.


Not quite true. Some inkjet printers have heaters to dry the ink.

I know that the hp DeskJet 1200 and 1600 had this feature, but
it's unlikely any of those are still in use. I would not be surprised
to learn that later or still-current models from one of more makers
have this feature.

Not all papers, even ones which claim "works with all inkjet printers"
will necessarily give the best quality print.


"Works with all" often means "not quite satisfactory results with
all".
It could be subtext for "don't use in your laser printer" :-)

For really unpredictable results, use refilled ink.

--
Regards, Bob Niland
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
 




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