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#31
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Road ruts with Jobo
Brian Kosoff wrote: Tom, I've been an advertising still life photographer for 25 years. Getting even strobe illumination on a background in a studio is photo 101. I do this all the time. The backgrounds measure exactly even on both a minolta incident flashmeter and a gossen reflective spot flashmeter. When I shoot color chromes, it is perfect. Well of course I don't know what your shooting or at what distance, i.e., I don't know exactly what sort of "unevenness" you've experienced (uniform illumination fall off or nonuniform density variations.) You may even get noticable illumination fall off at the film plane. Nor would I predict that I would or wouldn't experience your problem given the exact same conditions. I'm just saying in my experience you don't generally get "perfect" even illumination (or density) with b&w on a white background. I don't always get perfectly even illumination spot metering a gray card, corner to corner. As for your tip on "The whole point is to light the subject, not the background" well that all depends on the subject doesn't it? Yes, it does. I can assume from your comment that you have never shot on figure fashion with a white background. No. I don't shoot fashion. But I understand better what your issue is. I still doubt it's Jobo related. In fact, if I had a background I needed very even development for I'd probably choose rotary over just about any other method of processing. In my experience the Jobo (I use a CPP2) gives very even development consistently. On 1/25/04 2:04 AM, in article , "Tom Phillips" wrote: I can't imagine shooting with strobe in a studio setting against any background (wall, floor, or light table) and getting "even" illumination on the background. The whole point is to light the subject, not the background, and if you try to use flat lighting) no way is the light ever going to be 100% even on a background. Not in my experience. |
#32
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Road ruts with Jobo
LABFIX 2 wrote: There are some inherent problems with some jobo reels when processing certain formats. And some process' are more prone to having problems. ie; B&W 1. If you are processing sheet film, you must use Expert Drums for even development. Agreed. 2. If you are processing B&W, do not use a stop bath between dev and fix. Why not? 3. Using distilled water for chemical mixing can solve a multitude of B&W problems. 4. Follow JOBO processing recommendations. To the letter. 5. All of my customers sheet film problems have been solved by using Expert Drums,LOADED PROPERLY, and chemicals diluted with distilled water. I had a customer at a museum that constantly called me in to solve a processing problem with sheet film. They shoot 4X5, B&W and e-6. They would have a soft diffused line down the middle of sheet film.But not all the time. It would come and go. I performed MANY test over several weeks to try and solve their problem. At this point they absolutely HATED their JOBO processors ( a ATL-2500 and a ATL-2000) When ever I made test, the film was perfect. Then I had the museum make a test. When I went to take the film out to photoflo and hang to dry, I noticed that every other piece of film was loaded incorrectly. The film that were loaded correctly were perfect. The films loaded incorrectly(Emulsion toward outside of barrel) had a diffused plus density line. Problem solved! But, they still hate their JOBO's , go figure..... Some very well known photographers use JOBO processors exclusively, with repeatable excellent results. I know how frustrating processing anamolies can be. But I encourage anyone with proceesing problems, to carefully review the JOBO processor installation procedures and processing procedures-TO THE LETTER. This solves well over 70% of the problems. It's the other 30% that keeps me awake at night... Irving Harris PLR-Photographic Inc. JOBO Premier Servicing Dealer |
#33
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Road ruts with Jobo
Jean-David,
Here is a copy of an email that I sent to Jobo. But first a few facts not listed in the email as I thought they were so obvious as to not need listing. I am using the 2500 series FILM drums, with the proper inner cores and with 2502 reels for 120 film. For my 4x5 and 8x10 films, I have the 3005 and 3010 expert drums. Maybe you have not seen uneveness in your film because you do not shoot on totally even, studio lit, white backgrounds. I do not need to measure the uneveness on my densitometer as it is so blatantly evident to the eye. As for the "magnetic field" comments, they came from 2 different Jobo techs and as far as I can tell were said in all seriousness. Here is my email to Jobo: I have processed everything from 35mm to 8x10² film, using methods ranging from small tank (inversion), tray, large tank dip and dunk, large tank nitrogen burst and now rotary processing. I can say with absolute confidence that I have not gotten decent, even sheet film processing since I switched from nitrogen burst to a Jobo rotary. I can also state that I have not gotten even roll film development since I switched from small tank inversion to a jobo rotary. I shoot landscapes and still lifes that have large, extremely even, white backgrounds. The uneveness of development is quite obvious in that environment. I have experimented countless times in order to correct these inadequacies. I have had a back and forth dialog with various members of your technical assistance dept for several years, and have made alterations to my methodology, as well as many experiments based on their advice. In spite of all of these efforts, I still have, what your people describe as ³road ruts, on my roll film, and a combination of ³road ruts² and an effect that can only be described as pouring a blob of developer onto the center of un-agitated film and letting it sit there for a minute or two prior to agitation. These results come from film exposed in my Rolleis, mamiyas and Fujis. As well as readyloads, 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film in lisco holders, and 8x10 film exposed under the enlarger. I have been told by your tech people that using kodak film with kodak developers is problematic. I have also been told ( by 2 different techs) that I should turn the machine 90 degrees to the earthıs magentic field!!!! Upon the further advice of your technical assistance people I have measured the rpm of the processor and have processed roll film at 75rpm, 65 rpm and 50 rpm. I have used distilled water in my developers, distilled water or tap water for my presoak when d-76 was the dev, no pre soak when x-tol was the dev. My drums are perfectly level when in operation. I have used chemical quantities at the recommended amounts, and at more and less than the recommended amounts. I never process more than 4 rolls of 120 film at a time in a 2563 tank, using 4 reels. I use as much as 1000ml of developer to do this. I have used d-76 1:1 (1000ml for 4 *120ıs), Xtol (straight 1000ml for 4 rolls 120), xtol 1:1 (1000ml for 4 rolls of 120). On the advice of your tech people I do not use stop bath, but use 4 rinses prior to a 5 minute fix in kodak rapid fix. I have done all of this with Tmax100, Ilford fp-4plus and Delta 100. I have done all of this with sheet film, in 300x series tanks. The only difference being that your tech people recommended 50 rpm as the speed for the 300x expert drums. I use distilled water for presoaks, for developer and for photo flo. The photo flo is done after the film is removed from the reels or drum and placed in a glass beaker filled with the photo flo working solution. All of my tanks and reels are completely clean, no contaminants anywhere, as all of my prints are for sale in galleries, I run an archivally oriented darkroom. There are no, sources of light in my darkroom save the red light emitted from the jobo itself and the green glow from some gralab timers. The entrance to the darkroom consists of entering a light tight room first, with a light trap door, and then passing through a second light trap door into the darkroom. As a means of protecting my negatives I have what is probably the most experienced B&W digital lab in the country, Bow Haus, produce 8x10 tmax100 copy negatives for me. They too have a jobo, they too can not get evenly processed 8x10 film with it. They have tried sending their film to outside labs who also use jobo, and they too have had the same problems. They have not been able to find a single lab that processes 8x10 properly in a jobo. They now process my 8x10 copy negs by hand in a tray. That has given them the best results so far. On 1/24/04 10:24 PM, in article , "Jean-David Beyer" wrote: I am not saying that, because I know enough about making dogmatic statements: the most important of which is that the more dogmatic I get, the more likely I am to be in error. (Be careful: do not step in the dogma.) What I am saying is the problems are _not inherent_ in the Jobo system, since I, among others, get no road ruts (even if carefully measured), and without heroic measures to ensure their absense. So it must be something the others are doing. While it is possible that all those people (however many that may be) are either very sloppy processors using too little chemistry, people who are trying to develop negatives in print drums, using old reels, _or something else_, but I have no clue what the something else might be, and I doubt it can all be attributed to sloppy processing. I mistrust those who say to rotate the processor 90 degrees to change the magnetic fields though. They are either joking, or egregeously ignorant. It happens that my processor is usually lined up along an East-West axis (roughly; i.e., parallel to White Street in Shrewsbury, NJ, but I have used it at 90 degrees to that and it matters not). |
#34
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Road ruts with Jobo
Tom,
I've been an advertising still life photographer for 25 years. Getting even strobe illumination on a background in a studio is photo 101. I do this all the time. The backgrounds measure exactly even on both a minolta incident flashmeter and a gossen reflective spot flashmeter. When I shoot color chromes, it is perfect. As for your tip on "The whole point is to light the subject, not the background" well that all depends on the subject doesn't it? When you shoot clear glass, or clear liquids, the main light source IS the background. The way that you can see a transparent object is by the way it disrupts the light coming from the background. Any lights that you aim at a transparent object merely goes through it and only provides specular highlights. I can assume from your comment that you have never shot on figure fashion with a white background. On 1/25/04 2:04 AM, in article , "Tom Phillips" wrote: I can't imagine shooting with strobe in a studio setting against any background (wall, floor, or light table) and getting "even" illumination on the background. The whole point is to light the subject, not the background, and if you try to use flat lighting) no way is the light ever going to be 100% even on a background. Not in my experience. |
#35
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Road ruts with Jobo
There are some inherent problems with some jobo reels when processing certain
formats. And some process' are more prone to having problems. ie; B&W 1. If you are processing sheet film, you must use Expert Drums for even development. 2. If you are processing B&W, do not use a stop bath between dev and fix. 3. Using distilled water for chemical mixing can solve a multitude of B&W problems. 4. Follow JOBO processing recommendations. To the letter. 5. All of my customers sheet film problems have been solved by using Expert Drums,LOADED PROPERLY, and chemicals diluted with distilled water. I had a customer at a museum that constantly called me in to solve a processing problem with sheet film. They shoot 4X5, B&W and e-6. They would have a soft diffused line down the middle of sheet film.But not all the time. It would come and go. I performed MANY test over several weeks to try and solve their problem. At this point they absolutely HATED their JOBO processors ( a ATL-2500 and a ATL-2000) When ever I made test, the film was perfect. Then I had the museum make a test. When I went to take the film out to photoflo and hang to dry, I noticed that every other piece of film was loaded incorrectly. The film that were loaded correctly were perfect. The films loaded incorrectly(Emulsion toward outside of barrel) had a diffused plus density line. Problem solved! But, they still hate their JOBO's , go figure..... Some very well known photographers use JOBO processors exclusively, with repeatable excellent results. I know how frustrating processing anamolies can be. But I encourage anyone with proceesing problems, to carefully review the JOBO processor installation procedures and processing procedures-TO THE LETTER. This solves well over 70% of the problems. It's the other 30% that keeps me awake at night... Irving Harris PLR-Photographic Inc. JOBO Premier Servicing Dealer |
#36
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Road ruts with Jobo
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#37
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Road ruts with Jobo
LABFIX 2 wrote:
Some very well known photographers use JOBO processors exclusively, with repeatable excellent results. I know how frustrating processing anamolies can be. But I encourage anyone with proceesing problems, to carefully review the JOBO processor installation procedures and processing procedures-TO THE LETTER. This solves well over 70% of the problems. It's the other 30% that keeps me awake at night... Any suggestions in relation to the problem of uneven development along the edges of 35 mm film with rotary C-41 processing? Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Apr. 11, 2003 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses |
#38
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Road ruts with Jobo
Irving,
I am doing everything you indicate. I have posted an email I sent to jobo, which I will again post below that explains the process I have followed. I am using the 2500 series FILM drums, with the proper inner cores and with 2502 reels for 120 film. For my 4x5 and 8x10 films, I have the 3005 and 3010 expert drums. I have processed everything from 35mm to 8x10² film, using methods ranging from small tank (inversion), tray, large tank dip and dunk, large tank nitrogen burst and now rotary processing. I can say with absolute confidence that I have not gotten decent, even sheet film processing since I switched from nitrogen burst to a Jobo rotary. I can also state that I have not gotten even roll film development since I switched from small tank inversion to a jobo rotary. I shoot landscapes and still lifes that have large, extremely even, white backgrounds. The uneveness of development is quite obvious in that environment. I have experimented countless times in order to correct these inadequacies. I have had a back and forth dialog with various members of your technical assistance dept for several years, and have made alterations to my methodology, as well as many experiments based on their advice. In spite of all of these efforts, I still have, what your people describe as ³road ruts, on my roll film, and a combination of ³road ruts² and an effect that can only be described as pouring a blob of developer onto the center of un-agitated film and letting it sit there for a minute or two prior to agitation. These results come from film exposed in my Rolleis, mamiyas and Fujis. As well as readyloads, 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film in lisco holders, and 8x10 film exposed under the enlarger. I have been told by your tech people that using kodak film with kodak developers is problematic. I have also been told ( by 2 different techs) that I should turn the machine 90 degrees to the earthıs magentic field!!!! Upon the further advice of your technical assistance people I have measured the rpm of the processor and have processed roll film at 75rpm, 65 rpm and 50 rpm. I have used distilled water in my developers, distilled water or tap water for my presoak when d-76 was the dev, no pre soak when x-tol was the dev. My drums are perfectly level when in operation. I have used chemical quantities at the recommended amounts, and at more and less than the recommended amounts. I never process more than 4 rolls of 120 film at a time in a 2563 tank, using 4 reels. I use as much as 1000ml of developer to do this. I have used d-76 1:1 (1000ml for 4 *120ıs), Xtol (straight 1000ml for 4 rolls 120), xtol 1:1 (1000ml for 4 rolls of 120). On the advice of your tech people I do not use stop bath, but use 4 rinses prior to a 5 minute fix in kodak rapid fix. I have done all of this with Tmax100, Ilford fp-4plus and Delta 100. I have done all of this with sheet film, in 300x series tanks. The only difference being that your tech people recommended 50 rpm as the speed for the 300x expert drums. I use distilled water for presoaks, for developer and for photo flo. The photo flo is done after the film is removed from the reels or drum and placed in a glass beaker filled with the photo flo working solution. All of my tanks and reels are completely clean, no contaminants anywhere, as all of my prints are for sale in galleries, I run an archivally oriented darkroom. There are no, sources of light in my darkroom save the red light emitted from the jobo itself and the green glow from some gralab timers. The entrance to the darkroom consists of entering a light tight room first, with a light trap door, and then passing through a second light trap door into the darkroom. As a means of protecting my negatives I have what is probably the most experienced B&W digital lab in the country, Bow Haus, produce 8x10 tmax100 copy negatives for me. They too have a jobo, they too can not get evenly processed 8x10 film with it. They have tried sending their film to outside labs who also use jobo, and they too have had the same problems. They have not been able to find a single lab that processes 8x10 properly in a jobo. They now process my 8x10 copy negs by hand in a tray. That has given them the best results so far. On 1/25/04 9:40 AM, in article , "LABFIX 2" wrote: There are some inherent problems with some jobo reels when processing certain formats. And some process' are more prone to having problems. ie; B&W 1. If you are processing sheet film, you must use Expert Drums for even development. 2. If you are processing B&W, do not use a stop bath between dev and fix. 3. Using distilled water for chemical mixing can solve a multitude of B&W problems. 4. Follow JOBO processing recommendations. To the letter. 5. All of my customers sheet film problems have been solved by using Expert Drums,LOADED PROPERLY, and chemicals diluted with distilled water. I had a customer at a museum that constantly called me in to solve a processing problem with sheet film. They shoot 4X5, B&W and e-6. They would have a soft diffused line down the middle of sheet film.But not all the time. It would come and go. I performed MANY test over several weeks to try and solve their problem. At this point they absolutely HATED their JOBO processors ( a ATL-2500 and a ATL-2000) When ever I made test, the film was perfect. Then I had the museum make a test. When I went to take the film out to photoflo and hang to dry, I noticed that every other piece of film was loaded incorrectly. The film that were loaded correctly were perfect. The films loaded incorrectly(Emulsion toward outside of barrel) had a diffused plus density line. Problem solved! But, they still hate their JOBO's , go figure..... Some very well known photographers use JOBO processors exclusively, with repeatable excellent results. I know how frustrating processing anamolies can be. But I encourage anyone with proceesing problems, to carefully review the JOBO processor installation procedures and processing procedures-TO THE LETTER. This solves well over 70% of the problems. It's the other 30% that keeps me awake at night... Irving Harris PLR-Photographic Inc. JOBO Premier Servicing Dealer |
#39
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Road ruts with Jobo
"Brian Kosoff" wrote
As for the "magnetic field" comments, they came from 2 different Jobo techs and as far as I can tell were said in all seriousness. The techs may even believe the magnetic field fix. After all, after giving this advice, they have found that very few customers call back - ergo, problem solved. Call them back and tell them it is not the magnetic field, but that the lift handle has to pointed at Sirius Minor. -- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. |
#40
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Road ruts with Jobo
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