If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
On Tue, 31 Jul 2012 06:14:03 +0100, "Charles E. Hardwidge"
wrote: : "Robert Coe" wrote in message : ... : : Kindness isn't the issue; honesty is. If you don't have something useful : to say, say nothing. If you can give an honest, well thought out critique, : do so. If the critique doesn't resonate with the submitter, (s)he's free : to ignore it. : : I used to think "the truth" mattered more than anything else but where : someone isn't capable and the emotional cost outweighs any advantage don't : you think some degree of sensitivity to other not necessarily photography : issues matter? : : Other people are not us, and sometimes it's easy to forget that. Why should : we impose our ambitions on others? Perhaps their inclinations are in other : directions? Yes, I've made those mistakes myself but, also, we can give : credit where capability and talent do exist as well. : : I'm participating in an offline project and bringing a lot to the table but : some of the people involved have issues. If I waded in some of them could be : destroyed in a non-trivial way up to and including suicide which impressed : on me that development isn't just about directing but nurturing as well. I take your point. Maybe I phrased the issue in terms too black and white. But most contributors to the SI participate in the expectation of receiving frank comments, and I think most welcome them. Bob |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
[SI] Pairs comments - Alan B.
"Robert Coe" wrote in message
... I take your point. Maybe I phrased the issue in terms too black and white. But most contributors to the SI participate in the expectation of receiving frank comments, and I think most welcome them. You expressed things well enough (and made sense of my cack handed reply) so I think we both have a good idea what's being said. I think the issue here is focus. Personally, I'm not just interested in critique but how things are written and emotional engagement. I've also been doing an art project on the side to shake up my creativity and most of the participants are women. If you start getting too abstract you'll see their eyes go blank, and the social dynamics are completely different. FWIW, their work is actually rather good. I'm not sure if you can make sense of that but what I'm trying to say here is people can share goals but sometimes their needs and wants are different, and being open to that may have its advantages. -- Charles E. Hardwidge |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 2012-08-01 06:35:44 -0700, otter said:
On Jul 31, 7:20*pm, Robert Coe wrote: I take your point. Maybe I phrased the issue in terms too black and white . But most contributors to the SI participate in the expectation of receiving f rank comments, and I think most welcome them. I think some do expect, and welcome criticism of their submissions, and some don't - they just want to share their creative efforts with others. I suspect that those who don't particularly want their submissions criticized are also the the ones who don't offer criticism themself, and the one ones that do are the ones that give long detailed feedback on each picture. The commentary is an important part of the SI, and regardless of the individual motivation for sharing images, the thing to remember that in this game of semantics we are using "comments" rather than "criticism". Those commenting should think of themselves as well meaning, honest writers expressing opinion and advice, rather than NYT "critics" or photo competition judges sometimes maliciously picking at that which displeases them. There is no judgement in the SI as it is not a competition, it is meant to be fun, sharing, learning and inspirational experience for all. Another thing to remember is, the nature of everyone here on the Usenet, and those submitting to the SI is a need for some sort of recognition. It is just part of human nature. So I suspect that if consistently nothing is said about a particular photographer's SI image submissions, that photographer would soon be absent from the group. Since it take time and effort to give that kind of feedback, perhaps a reasonable compromise is to just do it for others who do likewise. Then who starts the ball rolling with the first comment? How does that commentator select the first image that is comment worthy, without knowing if it is available for comment or not? I am prepared to wait for the first word to be dropped, rather than grinding through all of them and wasting my time when only two or three want to hear any opinion on their image. So using your suggestion, for the next SI, "On the Road" we should anticipate zero comments, followed by Usenet post asking why there are no comments. Followed up with the next SI with a drop in image submissions. I am prepared to give each of those who have stepped up to share images via the SI recognition that they had done so, sometimes in the face of the withering scorn of those who deride and condemn the SI. We have been fortunate in the past few months to see some newcomers to the SI, but we have also had our dropouts over the years. Then we have those who for whatever reason will not share, or doing their best to discourage entry to the SI. ....but maybe I will just wait this time to see what comments appear. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 2012-08-02 08:14:07 -0700, otter said:
On Aug 1, 10:32*am, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-08-01 06:35:44 -0700, otter said: On Jul 31, 7:20 pm, Robert Coe wrote: I take your point. Maybe I phrased the issue in terms too black and wh ite . But most contributors to the SI participate in the expectation of receivin g f rank comments, and I think most welcome them. I think some do expect, and welcome criticism of their submissions, and some don't - they just want to share their creative efforts with others. I suspect that those who don't particularly want their submissions criticized are also the the ones who don't offer criticism themself, and the one ones that do are the ones that give long detailed feedback on each picture. The commentary is an important part of the SI, and regardless of the individual motivation for sharing images, the thing to remember that in this game of semantics we are using "comments" rather than "criticism". Those commenting should think of themselves as well meaning, honest writers expressing opinion and advice, rather than NYT "critics" or photo competition judges sometimes maliciously picking at that which displeases them. There is no judgement in the SI as it is not a competition, it is meant to be fun, sharing, learning and inspirational experience for all. Another thing to remember is, the nature of everyone here on the Usenet, and those submitting to the SI is a need for some sort of recognition. It is just part of human nature. So I suspect that if consistently nothing is said about a particular photographer's SI image submissions, that photographer would soon be absent from the group. Since it take time and effort to give that kind of feedback, perhaps a reasonable compromise is to just do it for others who do likewise. Then who starts the ball rolling with the first comment? How does that commentator select the first image that is comment worthy, without knowing if it is available for comment or not? I am prepared to wait for the first word to be dropped, rather than grinding through all of them and wasting my time when only two or three want to hear any opinion on their image. So using your suggestion, for the next SI, "On the Road" we should anticipate zero comments, followed by Usenet post asking why there are no comments. Followed up with the next SI with a drop in image submissions. I am prepared to give each of those who have stepped up to share images via the SI recognition that they had done so, sometimes in the face of the withering scorn of those who deride and condemn the SI. We have been fortunate in the past few months to see some newcomers to the SI, but we have also had our dropouts over the years. Then we have those who for whatever reason will not share, or doing their best to discourage entry to the SI. ...but maybe I will just wait this time to see what comments appear. -- Regards, Savageduck Group dynamics are not the same as a computer program. No one is going to read my comments and follow them literally, with step by step consequences. I was reaching for the absurd conclusion there, to make a point. ;-) There are several SI contributers that have a long history of posting pictures but no comments. My take is that they are not interested so much in critique, but in seeing their pictures displayed. I think many of those are not all that interested in "improving", and/or simply disregard comments anyway. However it is a leap in logic to conclude that just because they don't make comments, that they have no wish to have their work commented on, even if it is just getting the satisfaction of a compliment. So, are you proposing that SI contributors who don't care about comments, should add an "NC" tag to the image label letting us know that it is not necessary to comment on their work? There is also the consideration that images published in public (and there isn't a more public place than the internet, of which Usenet is a part) can be provocative, and beg comment regardless of the intent of the photographer. I would like to hear from these photographers who would not care to have some comment on their work. I gather you are confirming your status as one who would rather not hear what others think of your work. There are many ways for folks to share their images with those following Usenet photo groups, and many of us use all of them. Here in the non-binary groups we use URL links to cloud and photo sharing sites. Many times it is done to demonstrate part of a discussion, or those such as Bret, who just likes to remind us of his talent from time to time. Then there are the folks over at alt.binaries.photos.original who share images ranging from the extraordinary to the banal snapshot, all without shame, and without venomous reaction. I also think you over-value comments in regards to the success of the SI, but I'm not going to campaign for eliminating them. If it make people happy to do it, fine with me. Perhaps. However, It would be foolish to discount the importance comments play in the dialog that is the SI, from meeting the challenge of the mandate, to reacting to each of the images. While that reaction can certainly be cloaked in a personal silence, I believe that eliminating comments would damage the SI beyond repair. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Pairs comments - Alan B.
"otter" wrote in message ... On Aug 1, 10:32 am, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-08-01 06:35:44 -0700, otter said: [ ... ] ...but maybe I will just wait this time to see what comments appear. -- Regards, Savageduck Group dynamics are not the same as a computer program. No one is going to read my comments and follow them literally, with step by step consequences. There are several SI contributers that have a long history of posting pictures but no comments. My take is that they are not interested so much in critique, but in seeing their pictures displayed. I think many of those are not all that interested in "improving", and/or simply disregard comments anyway. I also think you over-value comments in regards to the success of the SI, but I'm not going to campaign for eliminating them. If it make people happy to do it, fine with me. When I look at the submissions to SI the comments spring to mind, ready-made; I regard verbalizing them for the Group as a chore. Unlike many chores, there are no significant consequences if the chore is put off or ignored. So, sometimes I don't do the comment chore for every image, or for any image. Sometimes I think it is enough to point out what it is about an image that rings my bell; sometimes I think such comments are re-stating the obvious, so I don't offer them. It is not important enough to me that others either enjoy or benefit from my perceptions of their works, that I will sacrifice a lot of comfort to fulfill their needs. Sloth is a great motivator. I overcome it from time to time and comment on every image as a result of obligation to others who do make sincere, thoughtful comments about everyone's images, my images, or a few random images. The Social Contract at work. I do not feel or infer a great drive to have my images or comments seen by others, and especially I don't think it is important to share every thought I have about everything that passes through my field of apprehension. There is usually only room for one Bloviator-in-Chief in any given group. I have neither the interest nor the stamina (or maybe the discernment) to try correcting every error or misstep I see in a group. Not my job, maing. One of the pass-times we in my family indulge in is to make up stories that explain noticeable events, e.g.: "Look at that numskull! He must never have learned what courtesy and consideration are!" "Yeah, or he saw you coming and, figuring you are alert and attentive and wouldn't run into him, decided it was OK to pull out in front of you so you had to slam on the brakes to avoid running into him." "Yeah, that too. Maybe he just didn't see us?" /etc./ "Why do I have to try explaining everything? I dunno. Maybe I get it from my Mom: she was always explaining things". You don't have to look very far in this/these forums to find a whole lot of explainers, some of whom disguise the impulse under several layers of dissimulation or misdirection. In the worst cases every one-note song becomes instantly recognizable. After a while it all stops being useful, if it ever was, or entertaining, ditto, and becomes so tedious as to result in avoidance, aka plonk. I would not stop submitting to, or viewing the submissions to, the SI if all commenting was gone. My comments will still be there in my mind, which will not be enough for some; I take comfort in the assumption that others are similarly afflicted, and won't be completely frustrated if they, too, reserve them for themselves. A little disappointed, though. -- Frank ess |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 8/2/2012 11:55 AM, Savageduck wrote:
snip Perhaps. However, It would be foolish to discount the importance comments play in the dialog that is the SI, from meeting the challenge of the mandate, to reacting to each of the images. While that reaction can certainly be cloaked in a personal silence, I believe that eliminating comments would damage the SI beyond repair. I have not read any comment advocating the elimination of comments in the SI, have you? Indeed comments in the SI are quit helpful, but like other good things, too much can be harmful. Water is essential for life, but too much can kill you. -- Peter |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Pairs comments - Alan B.
On Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:14:07 -0700 (PDT), otter
wrote: On Aug 1, 10:32*am, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-08-01 06:35:44 -0700, otter said: On Jul 31, 7:20 pm, Robert Coe wrote: I take your point. Maybe I phrased the issue in terms too black and white . But most contributors to the SI participate in the expectation of receiving f rank comments, and I think most welcome them. I think some do expect, and welcome criticism of their submissions, and some don't - they just want to share their creative efforts with others. I suspect that those who don't particularly want their submissions criticized are also the the ones who don't offer criticism themself, and the one ones that do are the ones that give long detailed feedback on each picture. The commentary is an important part of the SI, and regardless of the individual motivation for sharing images, the thing to remember that in this game of semantics we are using "comments" rather than "criticism". Those commenting should think of themselves as well meaning, honest writers expressing opinion and advice, rather than NYT "critics" or photo competition judges sometimes maliciously picking at that which displeases them. There is no judgement in the SI as it is not a competition, it is meant to be fun, sharing, learning and inspirational experience for all. Another thing to remember is, the nature of everyone here on the Usenet, and those submitting to the SI is a need for some sort of recognition. It is just part of human nature. So I suspect that if consistently nothing is said about a particular photographer's SI image submissions, that photographer would soon be absent from the group. Since it take time and effort to give that kind of feedback, perhaps a reasonable compromise is to just do it for others who do likewise. Then who starts the ball rolling with the first comment? How does that commentator select the first image that is comment worthy, without knowing if it is available for comment or not? I am prepared to wait for the first word to be dropped, rather than grinding through all of them and wasting my time when only two or three want to hear any opinion on their image. So using your suggestion, for the next SI, "On the Road" we should anticipate zero comments, followed by Usenet post asking why there are no comments. Followed up with the next SI with a drop in image submissions. I am prepared to give each of those who have stepped up to share images via the SI recognition that they had done so, sometimes in the face of the withering scorn of those who deride and condemn the SI. We have been fortunate in the past few months to see some newcomers to the SI, but we have also had our dropouts over the years. Then we have those who for whatever reason will not share, or doing their best to discourage entry to the SI. ...but maybe I will just wait this time to see what comments appear. -- Regards, Savageduck Group dynamics are not the same as a computer program. No one is going to read my comments and follow them literally, with step by step consequences. There are several SI contributers that have a long history of posting pictures but no comments. My take is that they are not interested so much in critique, but in seeing their pictures displayed. I think many of those are not all that interested in "improving", and/or simply disregard comments anyway. I also think you over-value comments in regards to the success of the SI, but I'm not going to campaign for eliminating them. If it make people happy to do it, fine with me. I've only commented the once, on the last [SI] and I fould the experience very valuable. I learned (as if I didn't already know) that images which left me cold were loved by other people. I learned that images which I loved were torn apart by others. I learned how to explain why I liked some and disliked others. Most importantly I learned how to apply my comments to my own work. The hardest images to deal with were those I variously liked or disliked for reasons I couldn't really explain. Vague comments such as "I like it" don't necessarily mean that I don't like it much, or that I haven't thought about it. It merely means that I _do_ like it but I can't explain why. Overall, I think I learned more from my comments than did anyone who read them. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 2012-08-02 13:44:47 -0700, Eric Stevens said:
On Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:14:07 -0700 (PDT), otter wrote: On Aug 1, 10:32*am, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-08-01 06:35:44 -0700, otter said: On Jul 31, 7:20 pm, Robert Coe wrote: I take your point. Maybe I phrased the issue in terms too black and white . But most contributors to the SI participate in the expectation of receiving f rank comments, and I think most welcome them. I think some do expect, and welcome criticism of their submissions, and some don't - they just want to share their creative efforts with others. I suspect that those who don't particularly want their submissions criticized are also the the ones who don't offer criticism themself, and the one ones that do are the ones that give long detailed feedback on each picture. The commentary is an important part of the SI, and regardless of the individual motivation for sharing images, the thing to remember that in this game of semantics we are using "comments" rather than "criticism". Those commenting should think of themselves as well meaning, honest writers expressing opinion and advice, rather than NYT "critics" or photo competition judges sometimes maliciously picking at that which displeases them. There is no judgement in the SI as it is not a competition, it is meant to be fun, sharing, learning and inspirational experience for all. Another thing to remember is, the nature of everyone here on the Usenet, and those submitting to the SI is a need for some sort of recognition. It is just part of human nature. So I suspect that if consistently nothing is said about a particular photographer's SI image submissions, that photographer would soon be absent from the group. Since it take time and effort to give that kind of feedback, perhaps a reasonable compromise is to just do it for others who do likewise. Then who starts the ball rolling with the first comment? How does that commentator select the first image that is comment worthy, without knowing if it is available for comment or not? I am prepared to wait for the first word to be dropped, rather than grinding through all of them and wasting my time when only two or three want to hear any opinion on their image. So using your suggestion, for the next SI, "On the Road" we should anticipate zero comments, followed by Usenet post asking why there are no comments. Followed up with the next SI with a drop in image submissions. I am prepared to give each of those who have stepped up to share images via the SI recognition that they had done so, sometimes in the face of the withering scorn of those who deride and condemn the SI. We have been fortunate in the past few months to see some newcomers to the SI, but we have also had our dropouts over the years. Then we have those who for whatever reason will not share, or doing their best to discourage entry to the SI. ...but maybe I will just wait this time to see what comments appear. -- Regards, Savageduck Group dynamics are not the same as a computer program. No one is going to read my comments and follow them literally, with step by step consequences. There are several SI contributers that have a long history of posting pictures but no comments. My take is that they are not interested so much in critique, but in seeing their pictures displayed. I think many of those are not all that interested in "improving", and/or simply disregard comments anyway. I also think you over-value comments in regards to the success of the SI, but I'm not going to campaign for eliminating them. If it make people happy to do it, fine with me. I've only commented the once, on the last [SI] and I fould the experience very valuable. It is. I learned (as if I didn't already know) that images which left me cold were loved by other people. Taste, likes and dislikes are an individual thing. I learned that images which I loved were torn apart by others. That is a time to accept that taste, opinions, and the way they are expressed are different for each of us. It can make you understand that point of view, if the comments are made sincerely without malice. Otherwise it only lacks a little prod to be pushed over the edge into vitriolic defense. I learned how to explain why I liked some and disliked others. Most importantly I learned how to apply my comments to my own work. Yup! The hardest images to deal with were those I variously liked or disliked for reasons I couldn't really explain. Vague comments such as "I like it" don't necessarily mean that I don't like it much, or that I haven't thought about it. It merely means that I _do_ like it but I can't explain why. Then say so. Intangibles count! Even for those which you don't find particularly likable. Overall, I think I learned more from my comments than did anyone who read them. Agreed! Making meaningful comments is not easy. Taking the time to look closely at each image to identify the qualities to formulate a comment is a learning experience for the commentator. Making comments for all the SI mandate submission is as much of a challenge, and educational, as shooting for the SI. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 2012-08-02 13:43:43 -0700, PeterN said:
On 8/2/2012 11:55 AM, Savageduck wrote: snip Perhaps. However, It would be foolish to discount the importance comments play in the dialog that is the SI, from meeting the challenge of the mandate, to reacting to each of the images. While that reaction can certainly be cloaked in a personal silence, I believe that eliminating comments would damage the SI beyond repair. I have not read any comment advocating the elimination of comments in the SI, have you? No! I have however read quite a few justifying why they might be inclined to comment on some shots and not others. That if somebody had already said something that came close to their thoughts, they might save themselves the time, and effort to express their particular take on any of those images. ....or assuming that because a shooter was not a regular commentator, they didn't care if recognition of their image by way of comment is made or not. Indeed comments in the SI are quit helpful, but like other good things, too much can be harmful. Water is essential for life, but too much can kill you. Who quantifies how much is too much? It appears that commentators might have to make their selection on what they remark on, by using some strange Solomonic wisdom. Throw all of them a bone. Who wants to be the lone shooter wondering, "Did anybody even notice what I was trying to share, and the work I put into it?" or "Perhaps I can get better feed back from, ...er http://www.group.as/behind%20the%20l...uing%20circle/ than sticking around this bunch?" -- Regards, Savageduck |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Pairs comments - Alan B.
On 2012-08-03 06:41:23 -0700, otter said:
On Aug 2, 10:55*am, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-08-02 08:14:07 -0700, otter said: On Aug 1, 10:32 am, Savageduck wrote: On 2012-08-01 06:35:44 -0700, otter said: On Jul 31, 7:20 pm, Robert Coe wrote: I take your point. Maybe I phrased the issue in terms too black and wh ite . But most contributors to the SI participate in the expectation of receiv in g f rank comments, and I think most welcome them. I think some do expect, and welcome criticism of their submissions, and some don't - they just want to share their creative efforts with others. I suspect that those who don't particularly want their submissions criticized are also the the ones who don't offer criticism themself, and the one ones that do are the ones that give long detailed feedbac k on each picture. The commentary is an important part of the SI, and regardless of the individual motivation for sharing images, the thing to remember that i n this game of semantics we are using "comments" rather than "criticism" . Those commenting should think of themselves as well meaning, honest writers expressing opinion and advice, rather than NYT "critics" or photo competition judges sometimes maliciously picking at that which displeases them. There is no judgement in the SI as it is not a competition, it is mean t to be fun, sharing, learning and inspirational experience for all. Another thing to remember is, the nature of everyone here on the Usenet, and those submitting to the SI is a need for some sort of recognition. It is just part of human nature. So I suspect that if consistently nothing is said about a particular photographer's SI imag e submissions, that photographer would soon be absent from the group. Since it take time and effort to give that kind of feedback, perhaps a reasonable compromise is to just do it for others who do likewise. Then who starts the ball rolling with the first comment? How does that commentator select the first image that is comment worthy, without knowing if it is available for comment or not? I am prepared to wait for the first word to be dropped, rather than grinding through all of them and wasting my time when only two or thre e want to hear any opinion on their image. So using your suggestion, for the next SI, "On the Road" we should anticipate zero comments, followed by Usenet post asking why there are no comments. Followed up with the next SI with a drop in image submissions. I am prepared to give each of those who have stepped up to share image s via the SI recognition that they had done so, sometimes in the face of the withering scorn of those who deride and condemn the SI. We have been fortunate in the past few months to see some newcomers to the SI, but we have also had our dropouts over the years. Then we have those who for whatever reason will not share, or doing their best to discourage entry to the SI. ...but maybe I will just wait this time to see what comments appear. -- Regards, Savageduck Group dynamics are not the same as a computer program. *No one is going to read my comments and follow them literally, with step by step consequences. I was reaching for the absurd conclusion there, to make a point. ;-) There are several SI contributers that have a long history of posting pictures but no comments. My take is that they are not interested so much in critique, but in seeing their pictures displayed. *I think many of those are not all that interested in "improving", and/or simply disregard comments anyway. However it is a leap in logic to conclude that just because they don't make comments, that they have no wish to have their work commented on, even if it is just getting the satisfaction of a compliment. So, are you proposing that SI contributors who don't care about comments, should add an "NC" tag to the image label letting us know that it is not necessary to comment on their work? I didn't propose that. It looks like you just did, though. This subject doesn't really mean much - comments about no comments in dying usenet. Maybe we should just give it a party and let it go. Fine. -- Regards, Savageduck |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|