Has your memory card ever worn out?

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:26:27 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , William Sommerwerck
wrote:

One of the best sales tools is to clearly explain what
your product can and can't do, and how its features
work with the features of other products in your line.

Selling it to... whom, exactly?

Potential customers! You need to convince them, or they might not buy your
product.

good point. too bad adobe can't convince anyone to buy their products.

oh wait...

what's even more hilarious is you said they have a monopoly. obviously
quite a few people are buying their products for that to be the case.

You are changing the subject. We were discussing the problem of
potential new buyers being unable to find out anything useful to
enable them to distinguish one Adobe product from another.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:03:28 -0400, "Neil Gould"
wrote:

William Sommerwerck wrote:
Adobe's arrogance doesn't help. The last time I visited its site,
I was amazed at how it failed to explain exactly what each of
its products did (or didn't) do, and why you might purchase it
(or not). When I complained about this, I received pretty much
a "we're Adobe -- we don't give a damn" response.

Since professionals have used many similar products for extended
periods of time, Adobe's explanations of what their products do are
adequate to provide a basic understanding of them.

And what of those who haven't used them? There are hundreds of new
potential customers every day who are ignorant of such things. What
do you do... ignore them?

There are a couple of levels of answers to this. To those with
general knowledge of image editing and image eding apps that somehow
haven't experienced PhotoShop, they can download the reference
manual, per another response. To the novice, there are numerous
PhotoShop courses available, both in person and on-line.

For example... What is the relationship between Lightroom and
Photoshop? Lightroom apparently does some things Photoshop also
does. Why would I use one and not the other? Or both? How do these
products interact (or not). What are the advantages and tradeoffs?

The relationship and differences should be obvious to experienced
image editors or photographers.

Obvious? Obvious how? How can you identify the dkifferences if there
is no easy way to determine the broad content and capabilities of
each?

It's obvious to pros in either the image editing or photographic industries.
Those that are not in either one of those industries or a professional in
support of one of those industries, the apps are probably overkill. In other
words, it would be unlikely that one could become a pro in one of those
areas and not get considerable exposure to the apps -- pun intended --
because of their market position.

Those who fall in neither category can probably
avoid both apps without consequence, and go with Gimp or some other
lower-end solution.

One of the best sales tools is to clearly explain what your product
can and can't do, and how its features work with the features of
other products in your line.

Selling it to... whom, exactly? Those who became "professionals"
within the last decade or two probably don't need such explanations.
Like I said earlier, PhotoShop is to image editing as ProTools is to
pro audio.

The present arrangement seems a good way to throttle off new buyers.

I doubt it.

My oldest daughter is a graphic designer and she knows photoshop as
she was taught it at school. Her daughter is a graphic designer and
she too knows photoshop as she was taught it at school. But neither of
them really knows what is/isn't in Elements, Lightroom etc.

And, how many *non-Adobe* image editing apps did they learn in school? Just
the fact that those apps are being taught in schools that are training
designers, photographers, etc. says about all that needs to be said.
Non-pros have little to no need to know, since they are not the target users
of those products.

--
best regards,

Neil

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:04:53 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , William Sommerwerck
wrote:

Adobe's arrogance doesn't help. The last time I visited its site,
I was amazed at how it failed to explain exactly what each of
its products did (or didn't) do, and why you might purchase it
(or not). When I complained about this, I received pretty much
a "we're Adobe -- we don't give a damn" response.

Since professionals have used many similar products for extended
periods of time, Adobe's explanations of what their products do are
adequate to provide a basic understanding of them.

And what of those who haven't used them? There are hundreds of new potential
customers every day who are ignorant of such things. What do you do...
ignore them?

the explanations are on their website as well as other websites. a
quick google search brings up many, many websites that explain the
products, including videos.

http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshopfamily/buying-guide-version-comparison.html

Compare products
Find the Photoshop product that's right for you.

If you go buy the URL you have given us above PhotoShop CS6 extended,
Photoshop CS6 and PhotoShop Lightroom 4 all have the following in
common:

* State-of-the-art image processing controls

* Nondestructive editing environment

* Highlight and shadow recovery

* Selective editing brushes for adjusting specific photo areas

* One-click adjustments to multiple images at once

..... but none of these capabilities can be found in either of two
versiins of Photoshop Elements.

Forgetting Elements for the moment, does this mean that PhotoShop CS6
extended, Photoshop CS6 and PhotoShop Lightroom 4 all have exactly the
same capabilities under each of these headings? I doubt it. Most
likely it means that the advertising agency feels it can apply the
same descriptive groups to each of the products.

For example... What is the relationship between Lightroom and Photoshop?
Lightroom apparently does some things Photoshop also does. Why would I use
one and not the other? Or both? How do these products interact (or not).
What are the advantages and tradeoffs?

lightroom is mainly an asset management app that can process raws,
modify the images (exposure, colour balance, etc.) and do some
retouching. it can also create books, websites, slide shows and prints
from your photos. everything in lightroom is non-destructive, including
cropping.

photoshop is a comprehensive photo retouching and image editing app,
however it doesn't do asset management nor can it make websites, etc.
although it's retouching capabilities are well beyond what lightroom
can do, 99% of the time you won't ever need any of it. most of the
time, photoshop is destructive but you can (with quite a bit of effort)
do it non-destructively.

usually all that people do is adjust the exposure, contrast, colour
balance, etc., which is well within what lightroom can do. on the rare
occasion that you need more sophisticated editing tools, lightroom can
easily roundtrip an image to photoshop.

One of the best sales tools is to clearly explain what your product can and
can't do, and how its features work with the features of other products in
your line. The goal is to get a "I like that -- I'll buy it!" reaction.
Adobe doesn't give a damn, probably because it has de facto monopoly on
image editing.

they explain what the apps can do and adobe products are popular
because many of them are extremely good. adobe camera raw is one of the
best raw processing engines around.

This is the kind of information which should be provided by Adobe at
the point of sale.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 10:54:55 -0400, tony cooper
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 05:49:38 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Photoshop never seemed expensive to me.

Not if you're a professional photographer. But for someone who doesn't earn
their living doing graphics work, the price is several times beyond
outrageous.

Adobe's arrogance doesn't help. The last time I visited its site, I was
amazed at how it failed to explain exactly what each of its products did (or
didn't) do, and why you might purchase it (or not). When I complained about
this, I received pretty much a "we're Adobe -- we don't give a damn"
response.

Adobe, like most software of this type of application, offers trial
downloads. A comprehensive description of the features of Photoshop
would have to be book-like in length.

I don't think a comprehensive description is what is required.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:58:10 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

--- snip ---

The basic concept and features are spelled out on the Adobe web site,
If they don't meet, or if they exceed your requirements, don't buy it.
You might want to check out a trial demo version. If it doesn't suit
you, don't buy it, there might be another solution for you.
http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop.html

You seem to be missing the point. The basic question is not 'what does
Photoshop do?' but how do I tell which Adobe product best meets my
needs?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:26:24 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , William Sommerwerck
wrote:

Let's just say that the last time I looked at the Adobe site, it was a mess.
It doesn't explain //anything//.

let's just say you're full of ****.

adobe's web site has always explained their products.

since you're incapable of finding the information yourself, here's a
few links to start you off:

There is a lot of new stuff on the Adobe site. For example the first
URL you have quoted below has a creation date of "2012 - 05 - 24". I'm
pretty sure none of it was present when I last looked. More to the
point, none of this stuff is of direct help to the would-be buyer.
It's all specific to individual products. Comparing products requires
much thrashing around and extraction of info.

http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/features.html

http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop-elements/features.html

http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop-lightroom/features.html
http://tv.adobe.com/show/whats-new-in-lightroom-4-beta/

http://tv.adobe.com/show/photoshop-cs6-featuretour/
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adobe-evan...obe-photoshop-
cs6-my-top-6-favorite-features/
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/photoshop-...-whites-top-5-
photoshop-cs5-features/

that's extremely comprehensive, and it's not even a complete list.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:04:56 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , tony cooper
wrote:

Adobe's arrogance doesn't help. The last time I visited its site, I was
amazed at how it failed to explain exactly what each of its products did (or
didn't) do, and why you might purchase it (or not). When I complained about
this, I received pretty much a "we're Adobe -- we don't give a damn"
response.

Adobe, like most software of this type of application, offers trial
downloads. A comprehensive description of the features of Photoshop
would have to be book-like in length.

nonsense. they have descriptions on their web site, including demo
videos, and many third parties write about it too. none are book-like
in length.

And none of them are comprehensive descriptions.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:26:26 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , William Sommerwerck
wrote:

you didn't look very hard. they explain their products in detail,
including comparing photoshop elements with the full photoshop.

Do I have to write a detailed essay to make the point clear? I'm not going
to.

don't waste your time.

Your mind is already madeup.

there's an overwhelming amount of information about adobe's products,

Tat's the problem. If only someone could summarize and compare the
capabilities of the various products it would be very helpful to the
would-be buyer.

both on their site and other people's sites, if you were actually
interested in learning about them, that is.

you're obviously not interested in adobe anything, and like ssd, your
mind is already made up and nothing is going to change it.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

One of the best sales tools is to clearly explain what
your product can and can't do, and how its features
work with the features of other products in your line.

Selling it to... whom, exactly?

Potential customers! You need to convince them, or they might not buy your
product.

good point. too bad adobe can't convince anyone to buy their products.

oh wait...

what's even more hilarious is you said they have a monopoly. obviously
quite a few people are buying their products for that to be the case.

You are changing the subject. We were discussing the problem of
potential new buyers being unable to find out anything useful to
enable them to distinguish one Adobe product from another.

i'm not changing a thing.

new buyers can easily find out about adobe products. there is plenty of
information at adobe.com and even more on other sites.

there's this thing called google, perhaps you've heard of it.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

My oldest daughter is a graphic designer and she knows photoshop as
she was taught it at school. Her daughter is a graphic designer and
she too knows photoshop as she was taught it at school. But neither of
them really knows what is/isn't in Elements, Lightroom etc.

only because they haven't done any research.