I' m in color management HELL! PLease advise!

Hi all,

I'm in Color-Management HELL and I need some advice. I'm trying to scan my
slides into my computer and am having difficulty getting decent results
matching the scan to the slide. I know a perfect match is not really
possible, but these scans are consistently dark and lackluster. Before I
continue, here's some pertinent info about my system: Windows XP Pro,
Minolta Scan Dual II film scanner, Epson 1670 flatbed scanner, Panasonic
Monitor, Adobe Photoshop 6, and Jasc Paint Shop Pro 8. I'm *not* a newcomer
to photo and imaging but I can't seem to get this right. Before I blame my
equipment, I want to make sure I'm doing the color management right.

Here's my understanding of how things should work: If the monitor's color
profile is set as the default profile in Windows XP Color Management, you
should be able to turn off color management in all other software and get
consistent results from scanner to image software and other applications.
This is how my system is set. I have my monitor set as the default profile.
I have turned off color management in my scanner software and in my imaging
apps. Is this wrong? I'm working in the sRGB color space. Should I be
loading a different ICC profile or colorspace.

But my scans are coming out dark and lackluster. What goes in as a nice,
well exposed slide gets scanned as dark and dull and all the brilliance is
gone. Manipulating them is becoming an exercise in frustration.

How should I set my color management?? Here are some things that I'm not
sure about:

- What's the difference between sRGB, Color match RGB, Adobe RGB, etc? I
have a vague idea, but I'm not sure.
- What's the proper color space for images that will be uploaded to a
website?
- What the default Gamma for windows, 1.8? 2.2?
- How is Lightness different from Brightness?
- what is a color channel?

Now I feel like I'm ranting. Perhaps I need to read a good book? Can someone
recommend a book (or website) that's not too simple yet not too complicated?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Viken Karaguesian

Viken Karaguesian wrote:

Hi all,

I'm in Color-Management HELL and I need some advice. I'm trying to scan my
slides into my computer and am having difficulty getting decent results
matching the scan to the slide. I know a perfect match is not really
possible, but these scans are consistently dark and lackluster. Before I
continue, here's some pertinent info about my system: Windows XP Pro,
Minolta Scan Dual II film scanner, Epson 1670 flatbed scanner, Panasonic
Monitor, Adobe Photoshop 6, and Jasc Paint Shop Pro 8. I'm *not* a newcomer
to photo and imaging but I can't seem to get this right. Before I blame my
equipment, I want to make sure I'm doing the color management right.

comp.periphs.scanners , and perhaps c.p.printers is the place to
get this question out to.

snipped

Now I feel like I'm ranting. Perhaps I need to read a good book? Can someone
recommend a book (or website) that's not too simple yet not too complicated?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

www.scantips.com may have additional supporting info.

--
--e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

I suspect the scanner is not set up appropriately and you are starting off
with wrong exposures. Also if you are scanning Kodachrome you may have
problems because some scanners just cannot adequately illuminate Kodachrome
because of its denser emulsion.
Even if you think you understand the scanner instructions recheck the
manual.
If you are using Photoshop color management properly then once the scan
enters the PS foodchain it will be color managed based on the original scan
characteristics and the profiles for your monitor and printer. Some scanners
employ what their manufacturer calls color management or color matching that
can drastically affect the image quality, sometimes for the better but
usually for worse.
For scanning slides you may find the investment in Vuescan worthwhile. You
can download a demo for free.

"bmoag" wrote in message om...
I suspect the scanner is not set up appropriately and you are starting off
with wrong exposures. Also if you are scanning Kodachrome you may have
problems because some scanners just cannot adequately illuminate Kodachrome
because of its denser emulsion.
Even if you think you understand the scanner instructions recheck the
manual.
If you are using Photoshop color management properly then once the scan
enters the PS foodchain it will be color managed based on the original scan
characteristics and the profiles for your monitor and printer. Some scanners
employ what their manufacturer calls color management or color matching that
can drastically affect the image quality, sometimes for the better but
usually for worse.
For scanning slides you may find the investment in Vuescan worthwhile. You
can download a demo for free.

Use the link to www.scantips.com above it will explain and give you
other links. However all hte colour management in the world will be
useless if your system is not calibrated. Your monitor can and
probably has been adjusted for coulour, contract, brightness etc
already.

"Viken Karaguesian" wrote in message ...
Hi all,

I'm in Color-Management HELL and I need some advice. I'm trying to scan my
slides into my computer and am having difficulty getting decent results
matching the scan to the slide. I know a perfect match is not really
possible, but these scans are consistently dark and lackluster. Before I

Actually, you're not really using color management much of any at all
which is your problem.

Things like Adobe RGB or sRGB are "imaginary" color spaces that, say,
a file uses to represent colors by the numbers in the file. Colors
themselves are "outside" one's computer in the "light domain".

Your monitor profile is used by supporting programs (such as photoshop)
to display those numbers on your screen properly. A generic profile
is a good start, but if you want accuracy you might want to look into
things like colorvision's Spyder to make a custom profile (on a
regular basis) and to tweek your monitor (calibration as opposed to
profiling). See colorvision.com . A profile gives information in how
to convert the numbers in the file into the same color in the display
device. Tell twenty people to buy you a "red" flower, you may get
quite a few different colors. A profile converts your word "red" to
the listener's concept of the word in his brain (may read "slightly
orange'sh red to him). That way you both are understanding the
same color.

Your scanner profile is used by the scanning software to convert the
colors detected by your scanner to the colors in a file's colorspace
(say, AdobeRGB).

When you print, the printer's profile is used to convert the file's colorspace
(like AdobeRGB) into the colorspace of the printer.

In other words, the colorspace you use (like adobeRGB) could be looked
at as the file's colorspace and profiles are needed to convert data into
that file's colorspace or out of the the file's colorspace. Out includes
printers, your monitor screen, a film recorder, etc.

More or less.

There's some nice papers, etc at http://www.color.org/ which is
the ICC of .ICC. :-)

Mike

P.S. - Yes it's a pain in the b*** to get everything right, but it's really
cool once set up right. :-)

"Viken Karaguesian" wrote in message
...
Here's my understanding of how things should work: If the monitor's color
profile is set as the default profile in Windows XP Color Management, you
should be able to turn off color management in all other software and get
consistent results from scanner to image software and other applications.
This is how my system is set. I have my monitor set as the default
profile.
I have turned off color management in my scanner software and in my
imaging
apps. Is this wrong? I'm working in the sRGB color space. Should I be
loading a different ICC profile or colorspace.

Turning off colour management in your scanner s/w would be a bad idea
(assuming it is calibrated and works correctly.) The original scanned image
needs an input colour profile, whatever colour space you end up working
with.

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:05:20 +0000 (UTC), "Nick"
wrote:

"Viken Karaguesian" wrote in message
...
Here's my understanding of how things should work: If the monitor's color
profile is set as the default profile in Windows XP Color Management, you
should be able to turn off color management in all other software and get
consistent results from scanner to image software and other applications.
This is how my system is set. I have my monitor set as the default
profile.
I have turned off color management in my scanner software and in my
imaging
apps. Is this wrong? I'm working in the sRGB color space. Should I be
loading a different ICC profile or colorspace.

Turning off colour management in your scanner s/w would be a bad idea
(assuming it is calibrated and works correctly.) The original scanned image
needs an input colour profile, whatever colour space you end up working
with.

I havent used a scanner for years now... but...

One thing I always thought was rather silly was they didnt come with
some form of profiling, I didnt realise this till I purchased
CorelDraw which included a card with a nice picture on it that you
scanned, and then used the profile software to then compare it with a
"correct tiff" and then worked out if the colours were off so it could
adjust for it.

Would be nice if the scanners came with a card, and a bit of software
to do the same... They (at least the old ones) did tend to have a lot
of latitude, and even varied over time so it was always worth turning
them on at least 5 mins before using and then re-calibrating after a
couple of mins use. (god I must be showing my age by now, lol)


--
Jonathan Wilson.
www.somethingerotic.com

Jonathan Wilson wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:05:20 +0000 (UTC), "Nick"
wrote:

One thing I always thought was rather silly was they didnt come with
some form of profiling, I didnt realise this till I purchased
CorelDraw which included a card with a nice picture on it that you
scanned, and then used the profile software to then compare it with a
"correct tiff" and then worked out if the colours were off so it could
adjust for it.

Yes! When I opened it and saw that picture, I wondered what the heck it
was for and filed it away. Much later when I discovered "color
management" and *WANTED* that image, I couldn't find what I did with it.
Know I didn't throw it away, I'm sure it's in a safe place, but it's
TOO safe. :-)

I have other ways to calibrate the scanner now, but it's amazing that I
had what I wanted in hand, and didn't know it. :-)

Mike

P.S. - And I still don't know where it is. When I find it, it'll probably
be faded. :-)