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#22
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Camera Security
In article 2013071708363558821-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says... On 2013-07-16 21:44:28 -0700, "J. Clarke" said: In article , says... On 2013.07.06 11:05 , J. Clarke wrote: In article , says... On 2013.07.03 22:28 , J. Clarke wrote: In article , says... On 2013.07.03 20:38 , J. Clarke wrote: The trouble with the metal straps is that things like scooter grabs can be turned from loss of property into serious injury. With luck it will be injury of the grabber who gets pulled off the scooter and into the path of an oncoming lorry. Personally my luck runs more in the direction of me being pulled into the path of the lorry. The person on the scooter is in a much more unstable position than a person walking or standing. OTOH the crafty buggers probably feel the resistance and abandon within a shake of a lamb's tail. The scooter's 2 up and gyrostabilized--you've got anywhere from 400-1000 pounds of mass going for you depending on the value of "scooter". In Asia the people doing the grabbing generally mass about 50 - 60 Kg. That's the passenger. The "driver" is another 50-60kg. The scooter can keep on going but he's not going with it. And as I said, as soon as the strap doesn't cut and there is resistance he's just going to let that one go. Who said anything about "cut"? Oh, so you know nothing about how these guys work. I've seen it done and it's slow down, bump, cut, grab and run (or ride). If you have a steel cable strap it's: slow down, bump, cut - Ooops - run (or ride). (A pound is not "mass"). Now you are being pedantic, and ignorant as well. A pound mass is approximately 1/32 of a slug. You lost when you mixed pounds and mass. A slug is mass. A pound is force. There is no mixing them. That would be news to the faculty and staff in the Aeronautical Engineering department at The Ohio State University, in the Mechanical Engineering department at The Georgia Institute of Technology, the engineering staff at United Technologies, the national standards bodies of the United States, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, South Africa, and Australia, which have established an international standard defining the avoirdupois pound as 0.45359237 kilogram, and a variety of other degreed engineers and scientists of my acquaintance. Sorry, but you are not only being pedantic, but now you are being stupidly pedantic. OK! Let's get pedantic. Why? Pedants are boring and waste everybody's time with pointless crap. What the man in the street thinks of as "weight" and mass are two different things. "Weight" expressed in "pounds" is not the same as mass expressed in "pounds". So what? The assertion is that the pound is not a unit of mass. That assertion is simply wrong. The pound is defined by the NIST and the equivalent standards bodies of many other nations as being 0.45359237 kilogram. It is not defined as being so many "Newtons" and it is not defined as being so many "Dynes" and it is not defined as being so many of any other unit of force, it is defined in units of mass. You can argue with me until Hell freezes over and that won't change anything because I am not the one who sets the standards. If you believe that the pound is necessarily a unit of force and not a unit of mass, you really need to take that up with the standards bodies. The force known as "weight" (Lb., Kg, etc.) is a force proportional to mass and acceleration. So other than dealing with mass v "weight" in different gravitational acceleration fields (Earth v. Moon) you have to go to Newton and the 2nd Law of Motion and the concept of inertial acceler. So "weight"= (mass)(acceleration), or W=mg Which has zip all do to with the definition of a pound. So given the difference of gravitational acceleration on Earth and the Moon, a man with a 100Kg mass will show two different weights if his mass is measured with a spring scale on the Moon, to that on Earth. However, if a balance beam mass scale is used his mass will be equal (100Kg) on both Earth and Moon. Which still has zip all to do with the definition of a pound. In the case of the "scooter snatch" there is inertial mass to be overcome (the mass of the bag carrier). there will be several possible results in a "scooter snatch" attempt where the strap is not cut. 1: the bag is separated from the carrier. 2: the bag and the carrier are unable to overcome the force imposed by the acceleration of the scooter and are dragged. 3. the snatcher on the scooter is unable to overcome the inertial force of the mass of the bag carrier, and is pulled from the accelerating scooter. Which is true whether you measure mass in pounds, slugs, kilograms, abuchi, or wiardunek, so it has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of a pound. Both the carrier and the snatcher are subject to the inertial force applied by the acceleration of the scooter, and physics will determine which will prevail once surprise is taken out of the equation. Which still has zip all to do with the definition of a pound. For most folks "weight" is the force on an object required to overcome gravity. So strangely enough a mass in free fall is weightless until its inertia cannot overcome gravity. i.e. the instant it touches the surface of the body exerting gravitational attraction. That is why an individual with a 100Kg mass can experience weightlessness while flying in NASA's "vomit comet". effectively he/she is in free fall while retaining a weightless mass. Which still has zip all to do with the definition of the pound. A slug is an Imperial unit of mass, not weight. Since the definition of the slug was not at issue, this comes under the heading of irrelevant trivia. Look, Duck, I got my physics degree in 1975 and my engineering degree in 1979 and a piece of hardware I worked on succesfully entered the atmosphere of another planet in 1995. When I say that the pound is a unit of mass, I am not expressing an uninformed opinion, I am telling you what is taught in engineering and physics programs, and used in real-world engineering, based on having successfully completed such programs and successfully engaged in real- world engineering. |
#23
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Camera Security
On 2013-07-17 09:48:44 -0700, "J. Clarke" said:
In article 2013071708363558821-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, says... On 2013-07-16 21:44:28 -0700, "J. Clarke" said: In article , says... On 2013.07.06 11:05 , J. Clarke wrote: In article , says... On 2013.07.03 22:28 , J. Clarke wrote: In article , says... On 2013.07.03 20:38 , J. Clarke wrote: The trouble with the metal straps is that things like scooter grabs can be turned from loss of property into serious injury. With luck it will be injury of the grabber who gets pulled off the scooter and into the path of an oncoming lorry. Personally my luck runs more in the direction of me being pulled into the path of the lorry. The person on the scooter is in a much more unstable position than a person walking or standing. OTOH the crafty buggers probably feel the resistance and abandon within a shake of a lamb's tail. The scooter's 2 up and gyrostabilized--you've got anywhere from 400-1000 pounds of mass going for you depending on the value of "scooter". In Asia the people doing the grabbing generally mass about 50 - 60 Kg. That's the passenger. The "driver" is another 50-60kg. The scooter can keep on going but he's not going with it. And as I said, as soon as the strap doesn't cut and there is resistance he's just going to let that one go. Who said anything about "cut"? Oh, so you know nothing about how these guys work. I've seen it done and it's slow down, bump, cut, grab and run (or ride). If you have a steel cable strap it's: slow down, bump, cut - Ooops - run (or ride). (A pound is not "mass"). Now you are being pedantic, and ignorant as well. A pound mass is approximately 1/32 of a slug. You lost when you mixed pounds and mass. A slug is mass. A pound is force. There is no mixing them. That would be news to the faculty and staff in the Aeronautical Engineering department at The Ohio State University, in the Mechanical Engineering department at The Georgia Institute of Technology, the engineering staff at United Technologies, the national standards bodies of the United States, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, South Africa, and Australia, which have established an international standard defining the avoirdupois pound as 0.45359237 kilogram, and a variety of other degreed engineers and scientists of my acquaintance. Sorry, but you are not only being pedantic, but now you are being stupidly pedantic. OK! Let's get pedantic. Why? Pedants are boring and waste everybody's time with pointless crap. What the man in the street thinks of as "weight" and mass are two different things. "Weight" expressed in "pounds" is not the same as mass expressed in "pounds". So what? The assertion is that the pound is not a unit of mass. That assertion is simply wrong. The pound is defined by the NIST and the equivalent standards bodies of many other nations as being 0.45359237 kilogram. It is not defined as being so many "Newtons" and it is not defined as being so many "Dynes" and it is not defined as being so many of any other unit of force, it is defined in units of mass. Re-read what I wrote. You might see that I spoke of the misconception that the unit of mass "the pound" is commonly interpreted by those ignorant of physics as "weight" which is indeed an expression of force. You can argue with me until Hell freezes over and that won't change anything because I am not the one who sets the standards. If you believe that the pound is necessarily a unit of force and not a unit of mass, you really need to take that up with the standards bodies. The force known as "weight" (Lb., Kg, etc.) is a force proportional to mass and acceleration. So other than dealing with mass v "weight" in different gravitational acceleration fields (Earth v. Moon) you have to go to Newton and the 2nd Law of Motion and the concept of inertial acceler. So "weight"= (mass)(acceleration), or W=mg Which has zip all do to with the definition of a pound. So given the difference of gravitational acceleration on Earth and the Moon, a man with a 100Kg mass will show two different weights if his mass is measured with a spring scale on the Moon, to that on Earth. However, if a balance beam mass scale is used his mass will be equal (100Kg) on both Earth and Moon. Which still has zip all to do with the definition of a pound. In the case of the "scooter snatch" there is inertial mass to be overcome (the mass of the bag carrier). there will be several possible results in a "scooter snatch" attempt where the strap is not cut. 1: the bag is separated from the carrier. 2: the bag and the carrier are unable to overcome the force imposed by the acceleration of the scooter and are dragged. 3. the snatcher on the scooter is unable to overcome the inertial force of the mass of the bag carrier, and is pulled from the accelerating scooter. Which is true whether you measure mass in pounds, slugs, kilograms, abuchi, or wiardunek, so it has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of a pound. Both the carrier and the snatcher are subject to the inertial force applied by the acceleration of the scooter, and physics will determine which will prevail once surprise is taken out of the equation. Which still has zip all to do with the definition of a pound. For most folks "weight" is the force on an object required to overcome gravity. So strangely enough a mass in free fall is weightless until its inertia cannot overcome gravity. i.e. the instant it touches the surface of the body exerting gravitational attraction. That is why an individual with a 100Kg mass can experience weightlessness while flying in NASA's "vomit comet". effectively he/she is in free fall while retaining a weightless mass. Which still has zip all to do with the definition of the pound. A slug is an Imperial unit of mass, not weight. Since the definition of the slug was not at issue, this comes under the heading of irrelevant trivia. Look, Duck, I got my physics degree in 1975 and my engineering degree in 1979 and a piece of hardware I worked on succesfully entered the atmosphere of another planet in 1995. So what? I don't have a degree in physics, but I certainly have an advanced education in physics provided at Syracuse some time before your 1975 graduation. When I say that the pound is a unit of mass, I am not expressing an uninformed opinion, I am telling you what is taught in engineering and physics programs, and used in real-world engineering, based on having successfully completed such programs and successfully engaged in real- world engineering. Where did I disagree with that? A pound is certainly a unit of mass. The misconception is equating "weight" with mass, thereby confusing units of mass (pounds, Kg, slug, etc) with weight. That as I have stated is a force. So, if you took a less argumentative stance you might have noticed that I am in agreement with you regarding calling pounds a force or a mass. The pound is without doubt a unit of mass. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#24
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Camera Security
In article 2013071710180710672-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says... On 2013-07-17 09:48:44 -0700, "J. Clarke" said: In article 2013071708363558821-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, says... On 2013-07-16 21:44:28 -0700, "J. Clarke" said: In article , says... On 2013.07.06 11:05 , J. Clarke wrote: In article , says... On 2013.07.03 22:28 , J. Clarke wrote: In article , says... On 2013.07.03 20:38 , J. Clarke wrote: The trouble with the metal straps is that things like scooter grabs can be turned from loss of property into serious injury. With luck it will be injury of the grabber who gets pulled off the scooter and into the path of an oncoming lorry. Personally my luck runs more in the direction of me being pulled into the path of the lorry. The person on the scooter is in a much more unstable position than a person walking or standing. OTOH the crafty buggers probably feel the resistance and abandon within a shake of a lamb's tail. The scooter's 2 up and gyrostabilized--you've got anywhere from 400-1000 pounds of mass going for you depending on the value of "scooter". In Asia the people doing the grabbing generally mass about 50 - 60 Kg. That's the passenger. The "driver" is another 50-60kg. The scooter can keep on going but he's not going with it. And as I said, as soon as the strap doesn't cut and there is resistance he's just going to let that one go. Who said anything about "cut"? Oh, so you know nothing about how these guys work. I've seen it done and it's slow down, bump, cut, grab and run (or ride). If you have a steel cable strap it's: slow down, bump, cut - Ooops - run (or ride). (A pound is not "mass"). Now you are being pedantic, and ignorant as well. A pound mass is approximately 1/32 of a slug. You lost when you mixed pounds and mass. A slug is mass. A pound is force. There is no mixing them. That would be news to the faculty and staff in the Aeronautical Engineering department at The Ohio State University, in the Mechanical Engineering department at The Georgia Institute of Technology, the engineering staff at United Technologies, the national standards bodies of the United States, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, South Africa, and Australia, which have established an international standard defining the avoirdupois pound as 0.45359237 kilogram, and a variety of other degreed engineers and scientists of my acquaintance. Sorry, but you are not only being pedantic, but now you are being stupidly pedantic. OK! Let's get pedantic. Why? Pedants are boring and waste everybody's time with pointless crap. What the man in the street thinks of as "weight" and mass are two different things. "Weight" expressed in "pounds" is not the same as mass expressed in "pounds". So what? The assertion is that the pound is not a unit of mass. That assertion is simply wrong. The pound is defined by the NIST and the equivalent standards bodies of many other nations as being 0.45359237 kilogram. It is not defined as being so many "Newtons" and it is not defined as being so many "Dynes" and it is not defined as being so many of any other unit of force, it is defined in units of mass. Re-read what I wrote. You might see that I spoke of the misconception that the unit of mass "the pound" is commonly interpreted by those ignorant of physics as "weight" which is indeed an expression of force. You can argue with me until Hell freezes over and that won't change anything because I am not the one who sets the standards. If you believe that the pound is necessarily a unit of force and not a unit of mass, you really need to take that up with the standards bodies. The force known as "weight" (Lb., Kg, etc.) is a force proportional to mass and acceleration. So other than dealing with mass v "weight" in different gravitational acceleration fields (Earth v. Moon) you have to go to Newton and the 2nd Law of Motion and the concept of inertial acceler. So "weight"= (mass)(acceleration), or W=mg Which has zip all do to with the definition of a pound. So given the difference of gravitational acceleration on Earth and the Moon, a man with a 100Kg mass will show two different weights if his mass is measured with a spring scale on the Moon, to that on Earth. However, if a balance beam mass scale is used his mass will be equal (100Kg) on both Earth and Moon. Which still has zip all to do with the definition of a pound. In the case of the "scooter snatch" there is inertial mass to be overcome (the mass of the bag carrier). there will be several possible results in a "scooter snatch" attempt where the strap is not cut. 1: the bag is separated from the carrier. 2: the bag and the carrier are unable to overcome the force imposed by the acceleration of the scooter and are dragged. 3. the snatcher on the scooter is unable to overcome the inertial force of the mass of the bag carrier, and is pulled from the accelerating scooter. Which is true whether you measure mass in pounds, slugs, kilograms, abuchi, or wiardunek, so it has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of a pound. Both the carrier and the snatcher are subject to the inertial force applied by the acceleration of the scooter, and physics will determine which will prevail once surprise is taken out of the equation. Which still has zip all to do with the definition of a pound. For most folks "weight" is the force on an object required to overcome gravity. So strangely enough a mass in free fall is weightless until its inertia cannot overcome gravity. i.e. the instant it touches the surface of the body exerting gravitational attraction. That is why an individual with a 100Kg mass can experience weightlessness while flying in NASA's "vomit comet". effectively he/she is in free fall while retaining a weightless mass. Which still has zip all to do with the definition of the pound. A slug is an Imperial unit of mass, not weight. Since the definition of the slug was not at issue, this comes under the heading of irrelevant trivia. Look, Duck, I got my physics degree in 1975 and my engineering degree in 1979 and a piece of hardware I worked on succesfully entered the atmosphere of another planet in 1995. So what? I don't have a degree in physics, but I certainly have an advanced education in physics provided at Syracuse some time before your 1975 graduation. When I say that the pound is a unit of mass, I am not expressing an uninformed opinion, I am telling you what is taught in engineering and physics programs, and used in real-world engineering, based on having successfully completed such programs and successfully engaged in real- world engineering. Where did I disagree with that? A pound is certainly a unit of mass. The misconception is equating "weight" with mass, thereby confusing units of mass (pounds, Kg, slug, etc) with weight. That as I have stated is a force. So, if you took a less argumentative stance you might have noticed that I am in agreement with you regarding calling pounds a force or a mass. The pound is without doubt a unit of mass. Sorry for misinterpreting your intent, however the original argument was one over nomenclature, not over the understanding of weight and mass. |
#25
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Camera Security
On 2013.07.17 00:44 , J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says... You lost when you mixed pounds and mass. A slug is mass. A pound is force. There is no mixing them. That would be news to the faculty and staff in the Aeronautical Engineering department at The Ohio State University, in the Mechanical Engineering department at The Georgia Institute of Technology, the engineering staff at United Technologies, the national standards bodies of the United States, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, South Africa, and Australia, which have established an international standard defining the avoirdupois pound as 0.45359237 kilogram, and a variety of other degreed engineers and scientists of my acquaintance. Sorry, but you are not only being pedantic, but now you are being stupidly pedantic. Given your rant above that is actually amusing. And ironic. Using pounds is commonly used as mass, but it is not technically correct (which is why there is the slug in the first place). The word "pound" as used in engineering is a shortcut for "avoirdupois pound" which is correctly "mass". It is why we say "pounds of thrust" for aircraft engines: it is a force. (Metric: "Newtons" of thrust - you'll never see kilograms). -- "Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of **** by the clean end." -Unknown |
#26
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Camera Security
In article ,
says... On 2013.07.17 00:44 , J. Clarke wrote: In article , says... You lost when you mixed pounds and mass. A slug is mass. A pound is force. There is no mixing them. That would be news to the faculty and staff in the Aeronautical Engineering department at The Ohio State University, in the Mechanical Engineering department at The Georgia Institute of Technology, the engineering staff at United Technologies, the national standards bodies of the United States, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, South Africa, and Australia, which have established an international standard defining the avoirdupois pound as 0.45359237 kilogram, and a variety of other degreed engineers and scientists of my acquaintance. Sorry, but you are not only being pedantic, but now you are being stupidly pedantic. Given your rant above that is actually amusing. And ironic. Using pounds is commonly used as mass, but it is not technically correct (which is why there is the slug in the first place). The word "pound" as used in engineering is a shortcut for "avoirdupois pound" which is correctly "mass". It is why we say "pounds of thrust" for aircraft engines: it is a force. (Metric: "Newtons" of thrust - you'll never see kilograms). Bored now. plonk |
#27
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Camera Security
In article , J. Clarke
wrote: In article , says... On 2013.07.17 00:44 , J. Clarke wrote: In article , says... You lost when you mixed pounds and mass. A slug is mass. A pound is force. There is no mixing them. That would be news to the faculty and staff in the Aeronautical Engineering department at The Ohio State University, in the Mechanical Engineering department at The Georgia Institute of Technology, the engineering staff at United Technologies, the national standards bodies of the United States, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, South Africa, and Australia, which have established an international standard defining the avoirdupois pound as 0.45359237 kilogram, and a variety of other degreed engineers and scientists of my acquaintance. Sorry, but you are not only being pedantic, but now you are being stupidly pedantic. Given your rant above that is actually amusing. And ironic. Using pounds is commonly used as mass, but it is not technically correct (which is why there is the slug in the first place). The word "pound" as used in engineering is a shortcut for "avoirdupois pound" which is correctly "mass". It is why we say "pounds of thrust" for aircraft engines: it is a force. (Metric: "Newtons" of thrust - you'll never see kilograms). Bored now. plonk The funny thing about this loony discussion is that both sides are right. You simply choose your own archaic system of measurement to suit yourself. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poundal where the whole mess is discussed fairly clearly. -- To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$ PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248 |
#28
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Camera Security
"DanP" wrote in message ... On Sunday, 7 July 2013 05:50:00 UTC+1, Trevor wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote in message I only responded to the twit who brought it up. That you think I am not even He plonked you. You think I care? So many say it, so few do it. When I killfile someone I don't need to tell the world. Those that do have another agenda. What is yours? allowed to respond proves more about your stupidity There you go, you did it again. ^^^^^^ What does that say about YOU continuing to respond then? Without you chiming in the thread would happily die all by itself. Trevor. |
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