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#1
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Buy Daguerreotype plates, not film
"Buy Daguerreotype plates, not film."
Sounds dumb, doesn't it. I'm changing my viewpoint ... As I see it, Daguerreotypes, and film, and digital, are all photographic processes with the same goal: to reproduce what the eye sees. And each generation has done a better job of it. Digital has been around for ~10 years. 10 years into film we were still in the round negatives era. I don't think we have seen anything yet as regards non-silver imaging -- and God's all ahead of us with this rhodopsin thing of his -- when we catch up with that it will be 'bye-bye digital'. I am sadly coming to the conclusion that the analogy with painting, that there are still plenty of paints and canvas to be found, may not apply to film photography. A modern painting is not analogous to a photograph - they aim to do different things: one is to show what is, the other is to show the artist's impression of what is. It seems realistic painters of portraits and the Hudson river are no longer. I do, however, plan to be one of the last Daguerreotypists^H^H^H^H film photographers around. My guess is microfilm stock will be around for a long time - Techpan Lives! -- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics. Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ |
#2
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Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
"Buy Daguerreotype plates, not film." Ah, that's the wonderful thing -- Daguerreotypy is a process that I really can carry from start to finish with materials lifted from other, less "threatened" hobbies. I can buy flat plate glass from Schott or their distributors in the correct thickeness to fit my holders; I can chemically silver that glass (to let the glass plate replace the silvered copper plates of original Dags), and not have to burnish because the fresh silver coat will already be chemically clean and flat. I can fume the plate with iodine and bromine (iodine crystals are available at tack shops, used to treat horse hoof ailments and hock injuries; bromine vapor can be trivially obtained from swimming pool or spa treatment chemicals), even chlorine (obtainable, frequently by accident, from liquid bleach). I could, if I chose, obtain liquid mercury (if necessary, by smelting it from mineralogical samples of cinnabar, but preferably by purchasing a small quantity; a pound will develop hundreds of plates) and use it in a vacuum and cold trap setup to develop the plates in an environmentally, economically, and safety conscious way, but I'm more likely to experiment with using modern developing chemicals (potentially including coffee, which I'll still be able to get as long as caffeine is legal) to develop the image on the plate, fix it with normal fixer, burnish with a candle flame as was done in the 1830s. Hmm. Better make sure I get borosilicate glass... Sounds dumb, doesn't it. Not as dumb as giving up photography just because film is dead. I'm changing my viewpoint ... As I see it, Daguerreotypes, and film, and digital, are all photographic processes with the same goal: to reproduce what the eye sees. And each generation has done a better job of it. Digital has been around for ~10 years. 10 years into film we were still in the round negatives era. I don't think we have seen anything yet as regards non-silver imaging -- and God's all ahead of us with this rhodopsin thing of his -- when we catch up with that it will be 'bye-bye digital'. But digital is part of a culture that takes it for granted that what you bought three years ago is no longer usable for any current operations (even if it still functions, which is likely), and what you bought ten to fifteen years ago is a museum piece, of interest only to gawkers and those few trying to trace how we got to where we are. A first-generation Sony Mavica was to today's digitals as that Dag camera is to today's Sinar 4x5. And BTW, round images were a Dag icon first -- the first Voigtlander camera was a tiny Daugerreotype camera that looked suspicously like a small brass telescope (surprise, the Voigtlander family had made telescopes and lenses for a couple generations before Niepce put bitumen on a plate inside a camera obscura) and used round plates. Digital hasn't even really gotten well started on the consumer electronics path of delivering more and more capability for less and less money until no one will both to buy one even for under $100 because it's been replaced by a genuinely incompatible technology in the same niche -- like portable CD players, now being replaced by MP3 players with no moving parts. I am sadly coming to the conclusion that the analogy with painting, that there are still plenty of paints and canvas to be found, may not apply to film photography. A modern painting is not analogous to a photograph - they aim to do different things: one is to show what is, the other is to show the artist's impression of what is. It seems realistic painters of portraits and the Hudson river are no longer. No, they're not gone. There is still a photorealistic school, in fact, painters who use traditional oils or acrylics, brushes, and canvas or panel to produce renditions so strikingly realistic you need, in some cases, a magnifying glass to tell it's not a photoprint. And there are many, many "realist" painters who do landscapes and even portraits in the "traditional" style of the 19th century (though very few who produce the epic canvases many feet in each dimension). They don't get much attention from the "art" world because they're not on the cutting edge, but if they're good at what they do, and at selling their work, they can make a good living, still. And there are schools of photography that are more analogous to painting than the "push the button and let Kodak do the rest" crowd. Look on photo.net for Piotr Kowalik, who have a very distinctive personal style and produces exquisite images -- he's very competent with Photoshop, but his unmanipulated images still carry his signature style in lighting, color, pose, etc., and (the opinions of others on this group notwithstanding) are surely art. Asya Schween is another such; her very disturbing images (in many cases) carry none of the earmarks of the slavishly photographic, yet are apparently produced in the camera, not on a computer screen (even though they are manipulated in terms of cropping, etc. after scanning). There are others as well. I do, however, plan to be one of the last Daguerreotypists^H^H^H^H film photographers around. My guess is microfilm stock will be around for a long time - Techpan Lives! I'll quit making images with light when I can't see them any more. Until then, I'll be a chemical photographer, even if I have to find out if roofing tar still hardens when exposed to UV. I might well use digital -- in fact, I do now, for plain documentation; I have a 5 MP digital with good controls, not a DSLR but capable of "bad" exposures and focus if I choose those things, but for photography to suit my own muse, I'll continue to choose film. -- I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954 Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect. |
#3
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There's an interesting book, _Primitive_Photography_ by Alan Greene, that tells
how to make your own camera & salted paper negatives, etc. You've probably seen it. I'd be curious to know how to make pansensitive emulsions though; the book only describes classical blue sensitive emulsions. |
#4
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Travis Porco wrote:
There's an interesting book, _Primitive_Photography_ by Alan Greene, that tells how to make your own camera & salted paper negatives, etc. You've probably seen it. I'd be curious to know how to make pansensitive emulsions though; the book only describes classical blue sensitive emulsions. I've got a PDF file here somewhere, scans of a very old book that goes into all the details of making "high speed" emulsions (ASA 100, probably, given that the book dates to the 1920s) and panchromatic films. Ping me by e-mail and I'll look for it; while I'm pretty sure it's too big to send by e-mail, if I can remind myself of the title, I can most likely relocate where I downloaded it. If not, I can break it up with HJSplit and send the pieces. It's all in there, if you can just translate the usages to modern language; even the names of the actinic dyes used to sensitize and panchromatize (though you might need to translate those to modern IUPAC nomenclature to find them in a chemical catalog now). -- I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz! -- E. J. Fudd, 1954 Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth and don't expect them to be perfect. |
#5
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"Nicholas O. Lindan" wrote in message ink.net...
"Buy Daguerreotype plates, not film." Sounds dumb, doesn't it. I'm changing my viewpoint ... As I see it, Daguerreotypes, and film, and digital, are all photographic processes with the same goal: to reproduce what the eye sees. And each generation has done a better job of it. Digital has been around for ~10 years. 10 years into film we were still in the round negatives era. I don't think we have seen anything yet as regards non-silver imaging -- and God's all ahead of us with this rhodopsin thing of his -- when we catch up with that it will be 'bye-bye digital'. I am sadly coming to the conclusion that the analogy with painting, that there are still plenty of paints and canvas to be found, may not apply to film photography. A modern painting is not analogous to a photograph - they aim to do different things: one is to show what is, the other is to show the artist's impression of what is. It seems realistic painters of portraits and the Hudson river are no longer. I do, however, plan to be one of the last Daguerreotypists^H^H^H^H film photographers around. My guess is microfilm stock will be around for a long time - Techpan Lives! Hay Nicholas Yer right, but it really doesn't matter what rec.photo...... thinks or does. We are a tiny, tiny minority of the photo buying public. Communisn doesn't work. Capitalisn does. I'm sure God is B&W Zoanansty, but if B&W silver doesn't sell, it ain't gonna be made. The hard reality is that silver is dying. I do see a hope, perhaps some medium sized company (like who.....? I dunno) will buy out the formulation for the more popular products. Several well know brands, products will be continued under a common masthead, such as Tech Pan, Illforchrome, Accufine, etc. But I'm not holding my breath. I do hpoe that color neg. films that can be scaned survive in 35, 120, & cut film. Pure digital isn't yet quite up to that combination, especially not in LF. Best, John |
#6
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In article et,
"Nicholas O. Lindan" wrote: "Buy Daguerreotype plates, not film." Sounds dumb, doesn't it. I'm changing my viewpoint ... snip.. Digital has been around for ~10 years. 10 years into film we were still in the round negatives era. I don't think we have seen anything yet as regards non-silver imaging -- and God's all ahead of us with this rhodopsin thing of his -- when we catch up with that it will be 'bye-bye digital'. Bio imaging technology? I do, however, plan to be one of the last Daguerreotypists^H^H^H^H film photographers around. My guess is microfilm stock will be around for a long time - Techpan Lives! Of course I'd rather it be on transparent substrate so I could enlarge it. But I beg to differ on definitions... As I see it, Daguerreotypes, and film, and digital, are all photographic processes with the same goal: to reproduce what the eye sees. And each generation has done a better job of it. Digital is not a photographic process. It is an imaging process, but not photographic. For starters, it would not and _cannot_ be a different medium, which it is, and still be "photographic." If it is a different medium, which it is, it must be something else. Photography was a very precise term selected by the eminent scientists and photographic researchers of the day to mean exactly what it is: a photochemical phenomenon that literally transforms the light reflected from objects onto sensitized substrates into a physical form. The terms light writing, photogenic drawing, etc., were deliberately selected to describe a phenomenon which was similar to drawing with pen or pencil on paper: a permanent, tangible image remained when light was used to chemically "draw" an original object projected as an optical image. Photography literally means Phos Graphos or light writing. Digital does not do this. Digital is a technological process of _transferring_ regenerated data through an electronic medium. Even the term "digital image" is misleading. Digital is based on photoelectric phenomenon, so essentially there is no image in the process, not even an optical one (beyond the original analog image projected by the lens during the scan.) Digital capture is a process by which photoelectric charges (electrons, _not images_) are transferred off a silicon sensor via a voltage, then regenerated into digital signals using an analog to digital converter, then stored as binary coded data on a storage card, magnetic hard drive, or CD-R. Again, no image. When output, the binary information is utilized by software to create inkjet or sometimes photochemical _reproductions_ of the stored data. But as data, digital images exist in name only, not in actuality. What one sees on a monitor's display is not an optical image, nor when it's reproduced as output are images "written" by the direct action of light. Digital images and outputs are software representations and reproductions of stored binary data. Now, most people think of digital camera sensors as "recording" optical images the same as film, then just storing that image in electronic form. Nope. Doesn't happen. The photodetector sites on silicon sensors do not inherently record images, or anything else. Rather, they _sample_ (collect) discrete allotments of data known as pixels. This is not a photographic process. The term data sampling, rather than imaging, is a more accurate and proper description of what silicon sensors do since each photodetector site collects photoelectron data relevant only to it's unique area. Photodectors are buckets of charged electrons ("wells") filled and drained repeatedly in order to transmit the electronic data for each capture. Photons are converted to electrons, a voltage, digital signals, then read by software and represented in pixel-image form on a monitor. There is no actual image, ever. Why is this so confusing to people? Photography has come to be defined many ways because photochemical, photomechanical, or electronic methods of producing images for consumptive publication have become so ubiquitous in society. But this doesn't mean anything we call a photo or image is "photographic." In our vernacular we tend to call any image we see a "photo" -- calendar, newspaper, computer image. But in reality these are reproductions of photographs created by processes other than photography (lithography, xerography, digital, inkjet.) The terms photo, photograph, and photographic have become mere idiomatic words in our society used for any image or process that produces an "image," rather than a literal photograph. -- Tom Phillips |
#7
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Donald Qualls wrote: Travis Porco wrote: There's an interesting book, _Primitive_Photography_ by Alan Greene, that tells how to make your own camera & salted paper negatives, etc. You've probably seen it. I'd be curious to know how to make pansensitive emulsions though; the book only describes classical blue sensitive emulsions. I've got a PDF file here somewhere, scans of a very old book that goes into all the details of making "high speed" emulsions (ASA 100, probably, given that the book dates to the 1920s) and panchromatic films. Ping me by e-mail and I'll look for it; while I'm pretty sure it's too big to send by e-mail, if I can remind myself of the title, I can most likely relocate where I downloaded it. If not, I can break it up with HJSplit and send the pieces. It's all in there, if you can just translate the usages to modern language; even the names of the actinic dyes used to sensitize and panchromatize (though you might need to translate those to modern IUPAC nomenclature to find them in a chemical catalog now). Or, you could just upload it to a website wehere we could all download it while we sleep or watch tomorrow nights debate :-) I'd like to see it myself. |
#8
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"Tom Phillips" wrote in message
... Digital is not a photographic process. It is an imaging process [...] There we are! I'm making that my wallpaper. Most pertinent, excellent. Thank you for that! |
#9
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jjs wrote: "Tom Phillips" wrote in message ... Digital is not a photographic process. It is an imaging process [...] There we are! I'm making that my wallpaper. Most pertinent, excellent. Thank you for that! People just need to wade through the misinformation and examine the differences in the processes directly. You'd be surprised how many photographers I know (not shooting digital) who think digital is "photographic." |
#10
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Nicholas O. Lindan wrote:
A modern painting is not analogous to a photograph - they aim to do different things: one is to show what is, the other is to show the artist's impression of what is. It seems realistic painters of portraits and the Hudson river are no longer. Photo journalists might but the rest of us don't. We decide what we want to see. Even if you take a wide shot of a view it's possible to leave out the chemical plant behind you. I don't even think in the end PJs show what is. Any time you click the shutter you are imposing your biases,interests and anything else that might have led you to make the choice you did. Nick |
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