Priming new lithium ion battery for full capacity

nospam wrote:
In article , John Navas
wrote:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

A small battery charger company.

so what?

Lithium-ion is a very clean system and does not need priming as
nickel-based batteries do. The 1st charge is no different to the 5th
or the 50th charge. Stickers instructing to charge the battery for 8
hours or more for the first time may be a leftover from the nickel
battery days.

In other words, manufacturers do not agree with the opinion of Isidor
Buchmann.

that's just one person's opinion, but let's see what he says, shall we?

http://www.buchmann.ca/chap2-page6.asp

There is no memory and no scheduled cycling is required to prolong
the battery's life.

you really ought to read the stuff you cite.

moving on,

http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap15-page3.asp

The manufacturer's recommended priming procedure should be followed.
...
Li-ion cells need less priming than the nickel-based equivalent.
Manufacturers of Li-ion cells insist that priming is not a
requirement. The priming function on the Li-ion may be used to verify
that the battery is fully functional and produces the capacity
required.

he says that nickel based batteries only need a 24 hour trickle charge
(same page), and that lithium ion batteries don't even need that.

http://www.buchmann.ca/article23-page1.asp

Li-ion prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Avoid
depleting the battery fully too frequently. Instead, charge more
often or use a larger battery.

a full discharge is not the best thing to do, which is what a cycle
charge is.

Preparing new lithium-ion for use

Unlike nickel and lead-based batteries, a new lithium-ion pack does
not need cycling through charging and discharging. Priming will make
little difference because the maximum capacity of lithium-ion is
available right from the beginning. Neither does a full discharge
improve the capacity of a faded pack. However, a full
discharge/charge will reset the digital circuit of a 'smart' battery
to improve the state-of-charge estimation.

Here's what Apple has to say http://www.apple.com/batteries/:

Lithium-ion polymer batteries need to be used for maximum
performance. If you don't use your device often, be sure to complete
a charge cycle at least once a month. ...

I'd say Apple is a more credible source, and that it's a good bet a new
battery has been unused for much more than a month. Other manufacturers
agree with Apple.

apple has a vested interest in selling more batteries.

it also says "if you don't use your device often...", which means if
you *do* use the device often (i.e., most people), that clause would
not apply, so you would not need to complete a charge cycle every
month. someone who doesn't use a device often is not likely to be
concerned with battery life.

it also contradicts your cited reference above: "no scheduled cycling
is required to prolong the battery's life."

most importantly, it says absolutely *nothing* about priming a new
battery with several charge cycles immediately after purchasing it.

I usually buy a new mobile (cell) phone before the rechargeable
battery has stopped functioning because either the phone has stopped
functioning or I want an improved model. I've been buying them and
reading the battery care instructions in the phone handbook since the
old days when the batteries were NiCad. I note that in many cases when
the kind of battery technology changed the battery care instructions
didn't. I don't think providing an authoritative technically correct
reference is top priority in the minds of those who oversee the
production of mass market device user manuals.

--
Chris Malcolm

On 08:34 29 Sep 2009, wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:46:54 -0700, John Navas
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:30:39 -0400, wrote in
:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:28:47 +0100, Eddie
wrote:

Does a new lithium ion battery need a few charge and
discharge cycles to be able to hold and delivery its full
capacity? ISTR a new lithium ion needed a few cycles but when
I checked on how much percentange improvement the extra
cycles provided, I couldn't find any clear recommendation.

A Li-ion battery has a limited number of full charge cycles.
No need to waste them. You'll get about 600 of them.

That varies considerably, but even at that number, a charge
cycle or two has no measurable effect on life.

The number 600 it at the high end. Other than an initial charge
and discharge to calibrate the low battery level electronics
there is no gain in a "few charge and discharge cycles". The
gain in capacity after a "few charge and discharge cycles" comes
with other battery technologies. Not Li-ion.

Can I ask you if all discharge/charge cycles are equal?

Let's assume a Li-Ion battery can take, say, 500
discharges/charges.

If that battery is not fully discharged on one occassion but has
80% charge left, then charging it up would provide no more than
20% of the usual charge it receives.

Would that sort of partial discharge/charge be counted as one
cycle from the nominal 500 cycles it has?

Or would it count as one fifth (20%) of one cycle out of of the
500?

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:09:57 +0100, Eddie wrote:

On 08:34 29 Sep 2009, wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:46:54 -0700, John Navas
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:30:39 -0400, wrote in
:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:28:47 +0100, Eddie
wrote:

Does a new lithium ion battery need a few charge and
discharge cycles to be able to hold and delivery its full
capacity? ISTR a new lithium ion needed a few cycles but when
I checked on how much percentange improvement the extra
cycles provided, I couldn't find any clear recommendation.

A Li-ion battery has a limited number of full charge cycles.
No need to waste them. You'll get about 600 of them.

That varies considerably, but even at that number, a charge
cycle or two has no measurable effect on life.

The number 600 it at the high end. Other than an initial charge
and discharge to calibrate the low battery level electronics
there is no gain in a "few charge and discharge cycles". The
gain in capacity after a "few charge and discharge cycles" comes
with other battery technologies. Not Li-ion.

Can I ask you if all discharge/charge cycles are equal?

Let's assume a Li-Ion battery can take, say, 500
discharges/charges.

If that battery is not fully discharged on one occassion but has
80% charge left, then charging it up would provide no more than
20% of the usual charge it receives.

Would that sort of partial discharge/charge be counted as one
cycle from the nominal 500 cycles it has?

Or would it count as one fifth (20%) of one cycle out of of the
500?

It depends more on the battery manufacturer than any generalizations about
all NiMH batteries. I have some cheap generic "Telepower" off-brand AA
NiMHs, a dozen for $10, that are over 10 yrs old, still taking and
releasing a full charge. I have a set of expensive AA Maha brand batteries
that only held up for 15 charges before they all crapped out. Within a few
weeks of use they couldn't even release enough current after a full charge
to power a pen-light, much less any camera or flash unit.

There is no one rule that will apply to all. You buy your batteries and you
take your chances. If they work for what you need them to do at a price
that you find reasonable then buy more of the same next time.

One thing I have found true though, never take the advice of what battery
brand to buy from people in these newsgroups and other photography forums.
That's for damn sure. I now buy any never-heard-of brand I can find, I
haven't been disappointed yet by doing so. The converse is not true--buying
brands recommended by newsgroup and forum trolls. I've since learned to
patently avoid buying anything that they might recommend. My life is all
the better for it, so is my bank-account, so is the longevity of my
batteries' lives.

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
In article ,
Eddie wrote:

Does a new lithium ion battery need a few charge and discharge cycles
to be able to hold and delivery its full capacity?

ISTR a new lithium ion needed a few cycles but when I checked on how
much percentange improvement the extra cycles provided, I couldn't
find any clear recommendation.

It's going to vary by manufacturing technique and rating technique.
Ratings may understate or overstate capacity depending on whether the
manufacturer wants to emphasize density or endurance. Only the
manufacture's performance graphs will tell you what you want to know.

I am curious about why some people are so obsessed with battery
life--batteries are the cheapest element in digital photography. Some of
the satements in this thread (_Not_ McMurtie's post, incidentally)
approach the medieval "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin"
question.
Allen

In article , Chris Malcolm
wrote:

I usually buy a new mobile (cell) phone before the rechargeable
battery has stopped functioning because either the phone has stopped
functioning or I want an improved model.

most people do that, which is why the noise about the iphone's internal
battery is nothing more than mindless criticism. people will buy a more
capable phone (whether it's an iphone or something else) well before
the battery can no longer can hold a charge.

I've been buying them and
reading the battery care instructions in the phone handbook since the
old days when the batteries were NiCad. I note that in many cases when
the kind of battery technology changed the battery care instructions
didn't. I don't think providing an authoritative technically correct
reference is top priority in the minds of those who oversee the
production of mass market device user manuals.

true.

The number 600 it at the high end. Other than an initial charge
and discharge to calibrate the low battery level electronics
there is no gain in a "few charge and discharge cycles". The
gain in capacity after a "few charge and discharge cycles" comes
with other battery technologies. Not Li-ion.

Can I ask you if all discharge/charge cycles are equal?

Full charge cycles are at most 600

Half charge cycles about 1200

Quarter charge cycles 2400 ect ect.

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:11:26 -0700, John Navas
wrote:

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:34:12 -0400, wrote in
:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:46:54 -0700, John Navas
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:30:39 -0400, wrote in
:

A Li-ion battery has a limited number of full charge cycles.
No need to waste them. You'll get about 600 of them.

That varies considerably, but even at that number, a charge cycle or two
has no measurable effect on life.

The number 600 it at the high end.

Actually now at the low end. Battery technology has continued to
improve.

600 is low for experimental Li-ion batteries, but Li-ion's presently
being sold are still around this number.

O
600 is low for experimental Li-ion batteries, but Li-ion's presently
being sold are still around this number.

Actually more like 1000 for the best current batteries.

Can you show a link?

In article , John Navas
wrote:

Battery issues are a primary reason people upgrade their phones.
In the USA a new phone is often (usually?) less expensive than a new
battery ...

most people upgrade because the cell carriers pitch free (or nearly so)
phones. i get calls every so often telling me i can get all sorts of
stuff just by renewing. the hand-me-downs end up on ebay or craigslist
and have very good battery life (i've bought several that way, contract
free).

which is why the noise about the iphone's internal
battery is nothing more than mindless criticism. people will buy a more
capable phone (whether it's an iphone or something else) well before
the battery can no longer can hold a charge.

... with the iPhone a notable exception, which is why the criticism is
justified, not to mention the built-in memory instead of a more
user-friendly memory card. "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" LOL

yes it is a feature. with as much as 32 gig built in, who needs to mess
with cards?

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:10:34 -0700, John Navas
wrote:

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:07:38 -0400, wrote in
:

600 is low for experimental Li-ion batteries, but Li-ion's presently
being sold are still around this number.

Actually more like 1000 for the best current batteries.

Can you show a link?

Can you?

Yes. Some manufacturers claim that their lithium ion battery
will have a "life cycle" of 1200 hours.

The term "life cycle" is not defined. Since it isn't a defined term
another manufacturer can one up this claim by saying their battery
has a life cycle of 2400. They can define a dead batteries life by
using any percentage of full capacity.10%, 30%, any percentage
because it's not defined.

Wikipedia also claims a 1200 figure but needs a citation to confirm
it. It has never been confirmed because it has no base reference.

The usual percent of full capacity cited for lithium ion batteries
when it is time to replace them is 50%. This 50% capacity happens
at best around 600 full charge cycles.