question for Pat Gainer

Pat,

I've been experimenting a bit trying to concoct a good Phenidone/Vitamin
C paper developer that I can use with my divided development technique
(all the carbonate in Bath B). I'm not having much luck-- what I get is
very low contrast results. Even when I add in some Hydroquinone, the
situation improves somewhat, but the results are still pretty flat. Can
you suggest a formula?

I tried making the Bath A with similar proportions to the film developer
I use regularly, but tripling the amounts of Phenidone and Vitamin C to
make a stronger concentration. I kept the proportions of one to the
other the same as the film developer.

Larry

Larry,

I'm not Pat, but I've chatted recently with him about this very
topic, and tried it a couple of years ago. I got bad results,
like you (in my case it was completely blank film). For a divided
developer to work, you need efficient take-up of developing
agents into the emulsion in the first bath, followed by
activation of those agents in the second. I think that sulfite
plays a big role in the first process and that it is the lack of
sulfite in Pat's developer that makes it unsuitable for straight
conversion to a two-bath developer. I've meant to (but haven't
yet got around to) adding a couple of teaspoons of sulfite to the
first bath to see if it improves matters at all. Another idea
might be to use a very warm first bath to promote take-up of the
soup, but this would likely cause other problems as well.

Jordan

LR Kalajainen wrote:
Pat,

I've been experimenting a bit trying to concoct a good Phenidone/Vitamin
C paper developer that I can use with my divided development technique
(all the carbonate in Bath B). I'm not having much luck-- what I get is
very low contrast results. Even when I add in some Hydroquinone, the
situation improves somewhat, but the results are still pretty flat. Can
you suggest a formula?

I tried making the Bath A with similar proportions to the film developer
I use regularly, but tripling the amounts of Phenidone and Vitamin C to
make a stronger concentration. I kept the proportions of one to the
other the same as the film developer.

Larry

LR Kalajainen wrote in message ...
Pat,

I've been experimenting a bit trying to concoct a good Phenidone/Vitamin
C paper developer that I can use with my divided development technique
(all the carbonate in Bath B).

Why? Divided development is tricky at best, and works best with metol.

I'm not having much luck-- what I get is
very low contrast results. Even when I add in some Hydroquinone, the
situation improves somewhat, but the results are still pretty flat. Can
you suggest a formula?

I tried making the Bath A with similar proportions to the film developer
I use regularly, but tripling the amounts of Phenidone and Vitamin C to
make a stronger concentration. I kept the proportions of one to the
other the same as the film developer.

Larry

LR Kalajainen wrote in message ...
Pat,

I've been experimenting a bit trying to concoct a good Phenidone/Vitamin
C paper developer that I can use with my divided development technique
(all the carbonate in Bath B).

Why? Divided development is tricky at best, and works best with metol.

I'm not having much luck-- what I get is
very low contrast results. Even when I add in some Hydroquinone, the
situation improves somewhat, but the results are still pretty flat. Can
you suggest a formula?

I tried making the Bath A with similar proportions to the film developer
I use regularly, but tripling the amounts of Phenidone and Vitamin C to
make a stronger concentration. I kept the proportions of one to the
other the same as the film developer.

Larry

LR Kalajainen wrote

I've been experimenting a bit trying to concoct a good Phenidone/Vitamin
C paper developer that I can use with my divided development technique
(all the carbonate in Bath B). I'm not having much luck-- what I get is
very low contrast results. Even when I add in some Hydroquinone, the
situation improves somewhat, but the results are still pretty flat. Can
you suggest a formula?

I tried making the Bath A with similar proportions to the film developer
I use regularly, but tripling the amounts of Phenidone and Vitamin C to
make a stronger concentration. I kept the proportions of one to the
other the same as the film developer.


Two or three thoughts: nothing will preserve V-C in an alkaline
solution, a lot of surface area, not much V-C.
Based on my quantitative work with metol and assuming 1/10th the
amount of phenidone will do as well, I suggest .025gr in 250ml
of water. That is for one 8x10. Use varying amounts of V-C and
test. Mix just prior to use; of course one-shot. Dan

Jordan Wosnick wrote:

Larry,

I'm not Pat, but I've chatted recently with him about this very topic,
and tried it a couple of years ago. I got bad results, like you (in my
case it was completely blank film). For a divided developer to work, you
need efficient take-up of developing agents into the emulsion in the
first bath, followed by activation of those agents in the second. I
think that sulfite plays a big role in the first process and that it is
the lack of sulfite in Pat's developer that makes it unsuitable for
straight conversion to a two-bath developer. I've meant to (but haven't
yet got around to) adding a couple of teaspoons of sulfite to the first
bath to see if it improves matters at all. Another idea might be to use
a very warm first bath to promote take-up of the soup, but this would
likely cause other problems as well.

Jordan

LR Kalajainen wrote:

Pat,

I've been experimenting a bit trying to concoct a good
Phenidone/Vitamin C paper developer that I can use with my divided
development technique (all the carbonate in Bath B). I'm not having
much luck-- what I get is very low contrast results. Even when I add
in some Hydroquinone, the situation improves somewhat, but the results
are still pretty flat. Can you suggest a formula?

I tried making the Bath A with similar proportions to the film
developer I use regularly, but tripling the amounts of Phenidone and
Vitamin C to make a stronger concentration. I kept the proportions of
one to the other the same as the film developer.

Larry
Thanks, Jordan,

This may be the clue I need.

I used to use a divided developer (Phenidone based) for
Ciba/Ilfochromes, and as I recall, it did have some sulfite in it, but
no Hydroquinone in order to control contrast with Cibas.

Uranium Committee wrote:

LR Kalajainen wrote in message ...

Pat,

I've been experimenting a bit trying to concoct a good Phenidone/Vitamin
C paper developer that I can use with my divided development technique
(all the carbonate in Bath B).


Why? Divided development is tricky at best, and works best with metol.


I'm not having much luck-- what I get is
very low contrast results. Even when I add in some Hydroquinone, the
situation improves somewhat, but the results are still pretty flat. Can
you suggest a formula?

I tried making the Bath A with similar proportions to the film developer
I use regularly, but tripling the amounts of Phenidone and Vitamin C to
make a stronger concentration. I kept the proportions of one to the
other the same as the film developer.

Larry

First, the why. Because Phenidone/Vit C is less toxic than Metol, and
since I use it for film, I thought perhaps I could try it with paper.

Second, I don't find divided development tricky at all. My regular
Metol-based formula has worked flawlessly for years. In fact, it's just
the opposite of tricky--absolutely reliable and predictable with almost
no variation between one print and another. Which is why I have stuck
with it for so long.

I used to use a Phenidone-based divided developer (also with good
results) with Cibachrome/Ilfochromes as a method of contrast control,
but without Hydroquinone. It did, however, have sulfite, and Jordan's
reply may be the clue I'm looking for. I was trying to leave out the
sulfite as I do with my film developer.

"LR Kalajainen" wrote in message
...
I used to use a Phenidone-based divided developer (also with good
results) with Cibachrome/Ilfochromes as a method of contrast control,
but without Hydroquinone. It did, however, have sulfite, and Jordan's
reply may be the clue I'm looking for. I was trying to leave out the
sulfite as I do with my film developer.

Can you publish the formula of the developer you use for Ilfochrome ?
I presume you still use the Ilford bleach ?

Thanks,
--
Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch

Claudio Bonavolta wrote:
"LR Kalajainen" wrote in message
...

I used to use a Phenidone-based divided developer (also with good
results) with Cibachrome/Ilfochromes as a method of contrast control,
but without Hydroquinone. It did, however, have sulfite, and Jordan's
reply may be the clue I'm looking for. I was trying to leave out the
sulfite as I do with my film developer.


Can you publish the formula of the developer you use for Ilfochrome ?
I presume you still use the Ilford bleach ?

Thanks,

I'll be happy to publish the formulas. I'll have to dig them out
whereever they're hiding in my darkroom. I haven't done any Ilfos for
several years now. When I get back later today, I'll do that.

Larry

"LR Kalajainen" wrote in message
...
Can you publish the formula of the developer you use for Ilfochrome ?
I presume you still use the Ilford bleach ?

Thanks,

I'll be happy to publish the formulas. I'll have to dig them out
whereever they're hiding in my darkroom. I haven't done any Ilfos for
several years now. When I get back later today, I'll do that.

Larry

Thanks Larry, there is no urgency.

Regards,
--
Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch