Snapshots of Afghanistan - August 2009

"Savageduck" wrote in message
news:2009091116085923810-savageduck@REMOVESPAMmecom...
On 2009-09-11 15:51:21 -0700, "Bill Graham" said:


"Rol_Lei Nut" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:

"Rol_Lei Nut" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:



If that was your discussion, then my comments about the Nazi films
was off topic....sorry.

Just another example of BG getting his facts all wrong: They weren't
"Nazi films", there were filmed by the allies after the camps were
found...

This is not true.....There were films taken by the Nazi's that were
recovered when the camps were liberated.....These films showed Nazi
bulldozers shoveling hundreds of dead bodies into open pit
graves.....These were not taken by us after the camps were liberated.
they were Nazi films, presumably made to show other camps how to handle
the, "problem" of efficiently getting rid of Jews. I was there in the
theatre. I saw the films. I know what I saw.

Ovens were usually used to handle the "problem" later on (though early
in the war various methods were tried).

AFAIK there was no official filming by the Nazis inside the camps. They
would probably have not shot any (at least not of death/killing) as
their legality was always a grey zone.

If you can provide a reliable source, I'll certainly say I'm sorry on
this count...

The most circulated film of bodies being bulldozed into pits was filmed
by the British at Bergen-Belsen.

Now, why would the Brits do that? Don't you think they would have a bit
more respect for the dead than that? I didn't see the "Leica" symbol on
the cameras that they used to take the pictures. I only remember what was
taken. But the assumption that it was taken before the camp was liberated
is a pretty good one. I doubt if any of the allied forces would have used
bulldozers to push naked Jew's bodies into open pit graves. And the naked
Jews that were standing around staring at the cameras sure didn't look,
"liberated" to me. They were looking death in the face. My common sense
tells me that what I saw was a part of a Nazi documentary, but like you,
I could be wrong.

The newsreels of the bodies being bulldozed into mass graves were made by
the British at Bergen-Belsen. There were multiple mass graves each with
approximately 5000 bodies. You might not have seen the edit with the
British military Chaplain presiding at the burials, making a formal
statement explaining exactly what was being recorded. The reason there
were so many dead in the camp was the break down of crematoria due to lack
of fuel. Most of those dead died from disease and starvation as
Bergen-Belsen lacked gas chambers and was not a dedicated extermination
camp like Auschwitz.

There are some German films of executions in Poland and Russia where the
doomed ran into the mass grave and were then shot from the edge of the
trench, but these only came to light after the war.

There is an award winning 1955 French documentary "Night & Fog"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_and_Fog_(film) you might want to see
sometime. That will give you a better grasp of the Holocaust. You can get
that from netflix.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

I also Googled some films of workers carrying naked bodies from the gas
chambers to the edge of the pits, and throwing them in. These workers were
not uniformed soldiers, so I assume they were either German workers, or
death camp inmates themselves, and the films were therefore taken by German
cameramen. And yes, these films were discovered after the end of the war.

"Rol_Lei Nut" wrote in message
...
BTW: (and finally somehow on topic) Leica's owners were involved in
getting large numbers of Jewish employeees out of Germany.

This is totally off topic.....I never implied that Leica was in any way
responsible for the death camps......I still believe that some of the films
I saw were taken by the Nazis before the camps were liberated.....Certainly
I saw many still photos that came under this category......A photo of a
naked woman waiting to be shipped off to a concentration camp, for example.
This was probably taken by a German citizen, who may very well have had no
sympathy for the Nazis whatsoever, but it was obviously taken before the
camps were liberated, and well before the end of the war.

wrote in message ...
Chris H wrote:
In message , Rol_Lei Nut Speleo_Kar
writes
"mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH wrote:

Almost all of the "lies" the left-wing bozos attribute to Fox News
are themselves outright lies.
Do you actually realize that almost all non-Americans, including
erswhile conservatives and "real" liberals (the free enterprise kind -
buy a dictionary!), would fall under your definition of "left-wing
bozos"?

Well I was thinking that... Outside the USA Fox is generally regarded
as "republican Propaganda" along the same lines as Tass and Pravda .)

Among the very few your ilk wouldn't consider left-wing are neo-
Fascist, neo-Nazi, Taliban and al-Qaeda members...

Agreed. Most of their thought processes and arguments are the same. As
are the methods they use or would like to use.

American radical-right wingers are just too ignorant and/or brain-
washed to realize how extreme they are.

They also give the US a very bad reputation as loud mouthed and stupid.



These guys really are a loud mouthed minority. The way they can spin this
stuff is amazing! :-)

Stephanie

Yes. Blame the mouth, but not what was said.....

wrote in message ...
"mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH wrote:
wrote:

Yes, but one persons "misperceptions" are another absolute truths......

Not when they have been PROVEN to be lies. Just like all the BS FOX news
has been spreading about the health care issue, saying illegal aliens
will be covered, the gov will decide when people should die etc. None of
that is an "absolute truth". It's called propaganda and you people are
buying it hook line and sinker.



Almost all of the "lies" the left-wing bozos attribute to Fox News
are themselves outright lies.

Fox really DID tell the truth, as it was thought at the time.

Fox has NOT been spreading lies about the House's health care
bills. It has never said that they would actually be socialized medicine,
or would actually have health care rationing in them,
DIRECTLY. What their commentators point out,
TRUTHFULLY, is that the bills contain fiscal and
logistical impossibilities that will inevitably lead to,
so long as the left wingers are in power, those things. The
laws of economics simply work like that.

When the goveenment is the sole provider of medical care ...
which, of course, it would not be IN THESE BILLS, they DO
ration health care. Obama has said "look at my advisors to
see what I will do" ... and one of his advisors has
ALREADY advocated health care rationing that literally
kills older folks and not middle aged one. In fact, he
is on a panel that has ALREADY DONE THAT! Yes, indeed,
a panel that rations organ transplants.

But just because these bills are not sole payer does
not mean that is not what Obama and the far left WANT ...
they have explicitly said that indeed that (sole payer)
is EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT, and that these bills are
just "a foot in the door".

That's what Fox does .... expose the lies posed as distortions
that the left always uses.

Whenever one has the left wing involved, one MUST
always look for the hidden agenda. Fox does, the
left wing lap dog networks like NPR or NBC do not.

Doug McDonald


So did FOX news explain that the insurance companies right now ration
health care and deny claims and coverage that end up in a LOT of people in
pain or dying? Or did they leave that part out?

My last surgery was for a torn ACL in my knee, the insurance company said
this was "elective surgery" because they said "You can still walk on it
and it's only to relieve some normal pain associated with this sort of
injury". So even though I had health insurance at the time, I paid $8500
out of pocket to have this fixed so I could continue to work.

Maybe I'm misguided, but I trust my government more than a FOR PROFIT
insurance company to have my best interests at heart. But maybe it's being
a "true american" to not trust the government today?

As far as rationing organs, unfortunately, that is needed. They have a
limited supply and they have to be given to the person who is most likely
to get some benefit from it. Unless you have "organ donor" on your DL, I
don't wanna hear you bitching about that one. And yes it is sad that if a
75 year old man and a 35 year old man both need the same heart, the 35
year old man is most likely going to get it. If that is your idea of a
"death panel", you might note that either choice one or the other ends up
dead.

As far as who is more likely to limit care based on cost, I'd put MUCH
more faith in the Gov who, no matter who is in power, doesn't seem to have
problems with over spending vs a FOR PROFIT insurance company who is more
concerned about how many millions the CEO can take home this year.

if you don't think health coverage is being rationed today, you're wearing
some REALLY good blinders.

Stephanie

As long as I have been alive there have been those who bribed my congressmen
to do special favors for them. The main difference (I have found) between
myself and the liberals, is the liberals blame the bribers for this, and I
blame the congressmen. Of course, both are responsible, but I think I am
right when I say the congressmen are more responsible than the bribers. They
hold the public trust. They are like the "bad cop" who is even worse than
your average criminal, because he has been charged with preventing crime,
and then violated the public trust.

wrote in message ...
Bill Graham wrote:

"mcdonaldREMOVE TO ACTUALLY REACH wrote in message
...
wrote:

Yes, but one persons "misperceptions" are another absolute
truths......

Not when they have been PROVEN to be lies. Just like all the BS FOX
news has been spreading about the health care issue, saying illegal
aliens will be covered, the gov will decide when people should die etc.
None of that is an "absolute truth". It's called propaganda and you
people are buying it hook line and sinker.


Almost all of the "lies" the left-wing bozos attribute to Fox News
are themselves outright lies.

Fox really DID tell the truth, as it was thought at the time.

Fox has NOT been spreading lies about the House's health care
bills. It has never said that they would actually be socialized
medicine,
or would actually have health care rationing in them,
DIRECTLY. What their commentators point out,
TRUTHFULLY, is that the bills contain fiscal and
logistical impossibilities that will inevitably lead to,
so long as the left wingers are in power, those things. The
laws of economics simply work like that.

When the goveenment is the sole provider of medical care ...
which, of course, it would not be IN THESE BILLS, they DO
ration health care. Obama has said "look at my advisors to
see what I will do" ... and one of his advisors has
ALREADY advocated health care rationing that literally
kills older folks and not middle aged one. In fact, he
is on a panel that has ALREADY DONE THAT! Yes, indeed,
a panel that rations organ transplants.

But just because these bills are not sole payer does
not mean that is not what Obama and the far left WANT ...
they have explicitly said that indeed that (sole payer)
is EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT, and that these bills are
just "a foot in the door".

That's what Fox does .... expose the lies posed as distortions
that the left always uses.

Whenever one has the left wing involved, one MUST
always look for the hidden agenda. Fox does, the
left wing lap dog networks like NPR or NBC do not.

Doug McDonald

And no matter who administrates what health care program, it will always
have to be rationed to some level. There always comes a point where the
expense is too great and the benefit too small. There is a cost-benefit
curve for everything, and health care is no exception.


So you trust a for profit insurance company more than the united states
government to make this choice in YOUR best interest? And I'm sure in the
same breath you will call yourself a "true american".

Stephanie

No. What I want to trust is the competitive process.....The free enterprise
system, if you will. If this system isn't working, then I believe it is
because the government has made laws that prevent it from working. Probably
they haven't prevented the insurance companies from price fixing. It is the
government's responsibility to enforce laws against price fixing.....Trust
busting, like Teddy Roosevelt did against the Standard Oil Protectorate back
in the early 20th century.....The health insurance companies have bought
them off. There are two ways to fix this situation, and I believe Obama is
using the wrong way, but that's because I'm a conservative.....

wrote in message ...
Bill Graham wrote:

"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , Bill Graham
writes

To me, It's much simpler than that. I have no idea why some terrorists
plowed a couple of airliners into those two buildings on 9/11, and I
don't really care why they did it.

Then you can never hope to beat them.
It also shows you are an idiot. In asynchronous warfare, especially
where the enemy is an ideal not a country or geographical location, in
order to beat an enemy you have to understand their motives and aims.

They were killing civilians, and not perpherillery, but on purpose. So,
the lines were drawn in the sand.

I agree... the lines were drawn by the US.... The 9/11 was a RETALIATION
not a first strike. Also it was the 3rd (or 4th) in a series.

Now, I am perfectly happy to spend the rest of my life seeking them out
and killing them. - How much simpler can it get than this?

That is the problem... simple solution for simple minds.... Your
solution is WRONG and means you can NEVER win this fight.

Fox tells me that they did it because they believe Allah wants them to
kill people, and they will get 72 virgins in their heaven for doing it.
Well, maybe that's true, and maybe it isn't. but, as I say, I don't
really care.

That is EXACTLY the problem.
You don't care about the truth and the reasons.

As I have said several times, a friend of min involved in intelligence
work always said the difference between the Soviet population and the
US population was the Soviet civilians knew when they were being fed
propaganda. Bill has just demonstrated the proof of that statement.

No. The bottom line is a bunch of nuts murdered 3000 innocent
non-combatants. Why do you insist that it be more complicated than that?
When have me or mine ever intentionally killed innocent women and
children? Like Lei Nut, you can talk my ear off, and do all the hand
waving you want, but that's the bottom line. The people they killed had
nothing to do with their beef with us. If someone harms me, I take the
trouble to find out who it is, and retaliate in kind. I don't just go out
and kill anyone who happens to be around. This is basic, rudimentary
common sense. OBL could have directed his airliners into an Army base, or
other military target. but he directed them into a bunch of innocent
civilians. You liberals may forget that, but I am not going to forget it,
or let your stupid yowelings detract me from it.


Yet you support invading Iraq, which had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Please
explain how that is NOT "I don't just go out and kill anyone who happens
to be around"

Stephanie

I supported invading Iraq because I bought the administrations contention
that Saddam Hussein had WMD's and constituted a threat to us and others in
the free world. I had little choice but to believe that. and most of the
people, (including your brother) believed it also. Now, all the Monday
morning quarterbacks are backing out, and using the invasion to support
their political platform and aspirations.....Where were they shortly after
the 9/11 attack? They expect George Bush to be some kind of a miracle worker
who has the ability to see things that others could not see.....He was just
another politician, for Christ's sake. Don't you know that they are all
alike? I don't like them any better than congressmen....As a matter of fact,
that's where they come from....Most of them were congressmen.

"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , Bill Graham
writes

"Chris H" wrote in message news:GvW39oamtrqKFAgz@p
haedsys.demon.co.uk...
In message , Bill Graham
writes

"Chris H" wrote in message news:uDb9mLAQthqKFAHn@p
haedsys.demon.co.uk...
In message , Bill
Graham
writes

To me, It's much simpler than that. I have no idea why some terrorists
plowed a couple of airliners into those two buildings on 9/11, and I
don't really care why they did it.

Then you can never hope to beat them.
It also shows you are an idiot. In asynchronous warfare, especially
where the enemy is an ideal not a country or geographical location, in
order to beat an enemy you have to understand their motives and aims.

They were killing civilians, and not perpherillery, but on purpose.
So,
the lines were drawn in the sand.

I agree... the lines were drawn by the US.... The 9/11 was a
RETALIATION
not a first strike. Also it was the 3rd (or 4th) in a series.

Now, I am perfectly happy to spend the rest of my life seeking them
out
and killing them. - How much simpler can it get than this?

That is the problem... simple solution for simple minds.... Your
solution is WRONG and means you can NEVER win this fight.

Fox tells me that they did it because they believe Allah wants them
to
kill people, and they will get 72 virgins in their heaven for doing
it.
Well, maybe that's true, and maybe it isn't. but, as I say, I don't
really care.

That is EXACTLY the problem.
You don't care about the truth and the reasons.

As I have said several times, a friend of min involved in intelligence
work always said the difference between the Soviet population and the
US population was the Soviet civilians knew when they were being fed
propaganda. Bill has just demonstrated the proof of that statement.

No. The bottom line is a bunch of nuts murdered 3000 innocent non-
combatants. Why do you insist that it be more complicated than that?

Because it is.

of innocent civilians. You liberals may forget that,

I am not a liberal. I also probably have a lot more years military
service than you do.

but I am not going to forget it, or let your stupid yowelings detract
me from it.

Your very point is exactly why the US can not win in Afghanistan and why
it lost in Iraq. The problem is that as you are far to stupid and
blinkered to understand you can not win.

What's this, "Lost in Iraq" BS? We did not lose in Iraq. It might have
cost us a lot more than we thought it would at the start, but we
haven't "lost". Iraq is now enjoying a new democracy, and their
dictator of thirty years is dead. At the very least, it is way too soon
to draw any concrete conclusions from the action.....I realize that you
want nothing more than to be able to say that we lost, and will jump
for joy should Iraq revert to some dictatorship in the near future, but
you will have to wait for that to happen before you can say that we
lost.

Lost as in did not get any of the objectives (bar 1)
Lost as in Al-Qeada gained most of their objectives.

1st objective for the US *AND* Al-Qeada was to get rid of Saddam.
After than no US objectives have been met but most of the Al-Qeada ones
have.


Al Qaeda objectives are to kill me and all other Americans. I am still
alive. Iraqi's too, should live longer, now that Saddam is gone. We are both
happy....

"Bob Larter" wrote in message

Bill Graham wrote:

[...]

The rich eat caviar, and the poor do not. So some people are "denied
adequate access to caviar" And you can substitute housing, clothing,
transportation or anything, necessity or not ,in that sentence. So
what is so different about health care?

There's considerable difference between caviar & (for example) a
kidney.

Indeed. You would *never* eat caviar with Chianti.

"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , Bill Graham
writes

"Rol_Lei Nut" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:

"Rol_Lei Nut" wrote in message
...
Bill Graham wrote:



If that was your discussion, then my comments about the Nazi films
was off topic....sorry.

Just another example of BG getting his facts all wrong: They
weren't "Nazi films", there were filmed by the allies after the
camps were found...

This is not true.....There were films taken by the Nazi's that were
recovered when the camps were liberated.....These films showed Nazi
bulldozers shoveling hundreds of dead bodies into open pit
graves.....These were not taken by us after the camps were liberated.
they were Nazi films, presumably made to show other camps how to
handle the, "problem" of efficiently getting rid of Jews. I was
there in the theatre. I saw the films. I know what I saw.

Ovens were usually used to handle the "problem" later on (though
early in the war various methods were tried).

AFAIK there was no official filming by the Nazis inside the camps.
They would probably have not shot any (at least not of death/killing)
as their legality was always a grey zone.

If you can provide a reliable source, I'll certainly say I'm sorry on
this count...

The most circulated film of bodies being bulldozed into pits was
filmed by the British at Bergen-Belsen.

Now, why would the Brits do that? Don't you think they would have a bit
more respect for the dead than that?

IT was the only way at the time to bury the dead so as to stop disease
spreading. It is not done too far differently today where there are
mass bodies to deal with.

I didn't see the "Leica" symbol on the cameras that they used to take
the pictures. I only remember what was taken. But the assumption that
it was taken before the camp was liberated is a pretty good one.

No. Many of the mass burials like that were done after liberation. The
bodies were buried rather than cremated as the Germans had usually blown
up the crematoria.

I doubt if any of the allied forces would have used bulldozers to push
naked Jew's bodies into open pit graves. And the naked Jews that were
standing around staring at the cameras sure didn't look, "liberated" to
me. They were looking death in the face. My common sense tells me that
what I saw was a part of a Nazi documentary, but like you, I could be
wrong.

I think you are wrong. When the allies got to the camps. They had to
manage the situation. This included getting the inmates back on to solid
food and checking them for diseases. This took a while and many died
during this process.

The reason being when rescued you relax and that is when people died.
Also many were so malnourished that it takes time to get the body
accepting food. In some cases people broke into the food store and eat.
They were then is a bad way as the body, in a starvation condition,
could not deal with the food.

The Brits and Americans did have to bury, and quickly, 100's of bodies
and clear up the camps that in many cases the Germans had just walked
out of leaving the inmates to stave.

From Memory all the film was taken by the Allies partly for propaganda
and partly for historical record. The Germans AFAIK did not take that
much inside the camps and when it was clear the war was not going well
probably destroyed much of what there was.

SO it is unlikely to be German film of themselves doing mass murder.
More likely to be the Allies.

I never said, "All". I said some of the films were obviously taken before
the camps were liberated. I still maintain this. And, as I said earlier,
there were many still photos that were taken before the camps were
liberated. The Germans were very thorough at documenting the things they
did. If you watch, "Forensic files", you'll see that many criminals here do
the same thing, and many get caught as a result.

Bill Graham wrote:
Al Qaeda objectives are to kill me and all other Americans. I am still
alive. Iraqi's too, should live longer, now that Saddam is gone. We are both
happy....

Like any murderous sociopath, graham is quite willing to kill anybody
that gets in the way of his selfishness. In that regard he is very
much like al Qaeda terrorists.

--
Ray Fischer