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When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink



 
 
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  #31  
Old March 3rd 12, 04:07 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Trevor[_2_]
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Default When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink


"Wolfgang Weisselberg" wrote in message
...
Trevor wrote:
"Wolfgang Weisselberg" wrote in message
R. Mark Clayton wrote:


Sure there are fewer bells and whistles, but NOT a grand's worth.


Who are *you* to decide what feature is worth what to whom?


I think he means it does NOT cost the manufacturer so much more to make
that
the retail price should be over $1k more.


Unfortunately, that view is not compatible with a *demand*
and *supply* based economy. That view is compatible with a
"worth is how hard it is to make" based economy, which is not
common with a free market (even though many think such a view is
inherently fairer).
Still, it's not a question of "how hard it is to make" but "how
valuable is it to the *actual* buyers"



Exactly, it's NOT really "worth" a grand more, but if you can get enough
suckers to pay it, then that's the capitalist way. Fortunately some
companies still prefer to make a more reasonable profit on a higher level of
sales. That is the sales model I prefer to support. Those who want
exclusivity prefer the exact opposite. Their choice.

Trevor.


  #32  
Old March 14th 12, 01:42 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Trevor[_2_]
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Default When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink


"Wolfgang Weisselberg" wrote in message
...
Fortunately some
companies still prefer to make a more reasonable profit on a higher level
of
sales. That is the sales model I prefer to support. Those who want
exclusivity prefer the exact opposite. Their choice.


So basically you are saying you want a full frame that doesn't
have *any* benefits except FF over a rock bottom crop DSLR.


Can you point me to where I said that? But sure, some people may. That
market has yet to be tested.

Which companies do offer that, and do have a higher level of
sales?


Well the Canon 5D2 sells OK, so not everyone wanted a 1DS2. I see no reason
a FF equivalent of the 60D for example would not find a market as well. (if
not overpriced!)
(just using Canon as an example)
However that is not the issue, what I said was the profit margins are higher
on the professional camera's. Do you have evidence to dispute that?
I also said people DO have a choice to buy or not, at ANY price demanded.
That is the capitalist way. I never said it needed to change simply because
I'm not willing to pay the prices some people are.
(What's wrong of course is some people earn $Billions for doing little while
others earn little for working hard. Obviously the latter have to watch
their expenditure far more than the former)

Trevor.


  #33  
Old March 14th 12, 01:50 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Paul Furman
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Default When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink

R. Mark Clayton wrote:
wrote in message
...
In , R. Mark Clayton
wrote:

What annoys me is having glass for 35mm full frame, but getting a
smaller
image on "D" rated cameras unless I pay ££££ for one with a full
frame
sensor (as opposed to £££) - ten times as much for approx twice the
area is
a rip off.

Not sure what you mean by "D" rated.

crop sensor, as in dx versus fx.

Comes with cheaper lenses that can't be used with full frame (vice versa
works - as long as the rear of the lens does not hit the mirror).


wrong. some dx lenses are budget while others are very expensive. many
dx lenses are outstanding. some dx lenses will cover a full frame at
some focal lengths, or you just set the full frame camera to dx mode.


You get [serious] vignetting* or even just black.


And, in that case, note the price differential between a D300s and a
D700. Those are the closest of any two models in the Nikon lineup,
about the same vintage, same level of toughness, etc., with the one
difference being the sensor size. And the price differential is about
2x (slightly less), nowhere near 10x.

It is a lot more than that for others (prices from Jacobs or Google)

Make Cheapest SLR Cheapest FF
Canon 330 1700
Nikon 430 1840
Sony 290 1850

so four to five times really but definitely ££££ for FF and £££ for APS
size.


bogus comparison.

the cheapest slrs are cheap not just because of a smaller sensor
(that's obviously part of it), but because they lack many other
features in the higher end full frame bodies.

for example, the cheapest full frame nikon has a 51 point autofocus and
internal focus motor, while the cheapest crop sensor nikon has an 11
point autofocus and no internal motor. there are many other differences
between those two, *all* of which contribute to the price difference.


Well compare the cost of full frame film SLR's then - they were just £££ as
well.

Sure there are fewer bells and whistles, but NOT a grand's worth.



Law of diminishing returns. If you want just a little better on the high
end, it's gonna cost a lot more.
  #34  
Old March 14th 12, 01:56 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Paul Furman
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Posts: 7,367
Default When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink

Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
So basically you are saying you want a full frame that doesn't
have*any* benefits except FF over a rock bottom crop DSLR.


Yeah, that would be nice but then you'd have an expensive sensor on a
cheap body that broke in three years and that'd be frustrating too.
  #35  
Old March 14th 12, 02:31 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
David J. Littleboy
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Default When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink


"Paul Furman" wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
So basically you are saying you want a full frame that doesn't
have*any* benefits except FF over a rock bottom crop DSLR.


Yeah, that would be nice but then you'd have an expensive sensor on a
cheap body that broke in three years and that'd be frustrating too.


So replace the body. US$900 every three years is better than US$3000 every
three years. Actually, the thing that breaks is the shutter mechanism, and
that can be replaced quite easily. So even the low end cameras can last a
long time.

How many frames have you shot in the last 3 years? I ask because I wonder
how many amateurs run through the 150,000 frame shutter lifetimes on these
things in 3 years.

Whatever, a FF Rebel sounds real sweet to me. I use mostly manual focus
lenses and don't use burst mode, so there's not a whole lot of advantage to
the current crop of midrange cameras. Heck, an FF Rebel might have an
articulating screen, which would be nice on a tripod.

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


  #36  
Old March 14th 12, 03:04 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Paul Furman
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Posts: 7,367
Default When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink

David J. Littleboy wrote:
"Paul wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
So basically you are saying you want a full frame that doesn't
have*any* benefits except FF over a rock bottom crop DSLR.


Yeah, that would be nice but then you'd have an expensive sensor on a
cheap body that broke in three years and that'd be frustrating too.


So replace the body. US$900 every three years is better than US$3000 every
three years. Actually, the thing that breaks is the shutter mechanism, and
that can be replaced quite easily. So even the low end cameras can last a
long time.

How many frames have you shot in the last 3 years? I ask because I wonder
how many amateurs run through the 150,000 frame shutter lifetimes on these
things in 3 years.


I replaced the shutter on my D200 and D700, and broke my D70 too :-)
But that's unusual; I was doing time lapse video...

Whatever, a FF Rebel sounds real sweet to me.


Agreed! Though I think we are oddballs... or at least I know I am :-)


I use mostly manual focus
lenses and don't use burst mode, so there's not a whole lot of advantage to
the current crop of midrange cameras.


I do appreciate the extra manual controls and weather seals, etc. I
certainly don't use 50 or 80 or whatever AF points or most of the
features but I do advanced stuff and like to have advanced options like
mirror lockup and non-cpu-lens data.


Heck, an FF Rebel might have an
articulating screen, which would be nice on a tripod.


  #37  
Old March 14th 12, 03:36 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
David J. Littleboy
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Posts: 2,618
Default When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink

"Paul Furman" wrote:
David J. Littleboy wrote:

Whatever, a FF Rebel sounds real sweet to me.


Agreed! Though I think we are oddballs... or at least I know I am :-)


You're an amateur odball. I'm a computer nerd with an MA in Japanese
Literature.

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


  #38  
Old March 14th 12, 03:59 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Trevor[_2_]
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Posts: 874
Default When will these people get it? Cost does not necessarily equal worth or value.


"Paul Furman" wrote in message
...
Sure there are fewer bells and whistles, but NOT a grand's worth.


Law of diminishing returns. If you want just a little better on the high
end, it's gonna cost a lot more.


= Law of higher unit costs at lower production volumes, and more
particularly *higher profit margins*.

The continual argument here however simply seems to revolve around the
definitions of "worth" Vs cost.

Trevor.




  #39  
Old March 14th 12, 04:08 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Trevor[_2_]
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Posts: 874
Default When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink


"Paul Furman" wrote in message
...
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
So basically you are saying you want a full frame that doesn't
have*any* benefits except FF over a rock bottom crop DSLR.


Yeah, that would be nice but then you'd have an expensive sensor on a
cheap body that broke in three years and that'd be frustrating too.


Since I know people still using 300D's, (and I have a 350D in my collection
that still works fine) I'd say that argument is ill founded. Not every one
takes 50,000 photo's per year with one camera, or uses their camera to drive
nails! So not every one wants the most expensive camera money can buy, but
many DO want good photo's occasionally.
(and purchasing extended 5 year warranties is common place now in any case)

Until Canon or Nikon test the market for a cheap FF DSLR, the size of that
market is still unknown.

Trevor.


  #40  
Old March 14th 12, 04:20 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital
Paul Furman
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Posts: 7,367
Default When will these people get it? Telephotos CAN shrink

David J. Littleboy wrote:
"Paul wrote:
David J. Littleboy wrote:

Whatever, a FF Rebel sounds real sweet to me.


Agreed! Though I think we are oddballs... or at least I know I am :-)


You're an amateur odball. I'm a computer nerd with an MA in Japanese
Literature.


respectful bow

:-)
 




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