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#51
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
On Mar 23, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote
(in ): On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 15:39:17 -0700, Savageduck wrote: On Mar 23, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote (in ): On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 19:44:34 -0400, "Mayayana" wrote: --- snip --- I'm sorry if that's not what you're looking for. I just don't know what else you can find out. It seemed clear enough to me when I wrote the original post but it's obvious I didn't make myself clear. Thinking about it, what I need is the equivalent of block diagrams with explanatory text. Sticking with my original example: what goes on inside PS when one creates a clipping mask? What graphic elements are used and how are they manipulated behind the scenes? I still don’t get where you are going, or what sort of thought exercise you are entertaining with this search into the inner workings of PS. For that matter you might as well ask for the same information on Alienskin Exposure X3, On1 Photo Raw 2018, Affinity Photo, etc. After all they all follow similar principles when it comes to creating clipping masks, and other graphics editing staples. What are you trying to achieve other than a thought exercise? Does it matter? I just would like to know. ....er, OK then. I certainly have nothing to contribute here. Things have been muddied more than enough by all the expertise on display. I have P3 of the Australian F1 GP to watch right now, and then qualifying a bit later. So you guys carry on. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#52
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 22:23:01 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: chances are your ****ty newsreader mangled the url and you refuse to admit that it has once again, ****ed you over. Here is screen shot of part of the article you wrote including the URLs you gave https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ldr8tdhm9...ture2.JPG?dl=0 Is there anything wrong with those? that looks ok. i just tested the wikipedia link again and it works without issue. the problem is clearly at *your* end, not wikipedia. They were working for me but they are both now bringing up the message for which I have already given you a screen shot. then there is something is wrong at your end. You are so sure ... has it occured to you that Wikipedia has (a hell of a lot) more than one server and and that for a variety of reasons they may not all be synchronised? it's time for some troubleshooting. If you had read my original post you would know that I do not want algorithms. i did and you did. Among other things I wrote "This doesn't mean that I want to know the actual code but I would like to know what the code is doing." I suppose you could that interpret that as a request for an algorithm but I actually intended reference to something higher up the chain than an algorithm. that would be conceptual, which was also explained. But the name of a book ... you have already said there are many of them but you have yet to give me the name of one. any book on image processing algorithms. Not just any book. I want a book dealing with PS. except now you say you don't want to learn about algorithms. I don't need to go to that depth. that tells me you don't know what you want, which means nobody can suggest a book because you'll just say it contains the wrong stuff. Hmpff. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#53
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 22:23:02 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: In article , Mayayana wrote: I have trouble dealing with things if I can't understand them, then you must have an enormous amount of trouble in this world. Would you extend that to claiming that you deal with things even if you don't understand them? i don't have a problem dealing with things i don't understand. Haw. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#54
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 22:40:30 -0400, Ron C wrote:
On 3/23/2018 10:17 PM, Eric Stevens wrote: On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 19:35:23 -0400, nospam wrote: In article , Mayayana wrote: I have trouble dealing with things if I can't understand them, then you must have an enormous amount of trouble in this world. Would you extend that to claiming that you deal with things even if you don't understand them? I'm having trouble working back to the quote fragments: " I have trouble dealing with" "things if I can't understand them," ~~ Anyway, way back in the day I had a lot of trouble dealing with early integrated circuits because I had no idea what happened inside. In time I learned to deal with "black boxes" when only knowing their transfer function. Back then I spent a lot of time looking up the circuits within the ICs, only to later find that that level of detail didn't matter. ~~ Have you not learned to deal with black boxes? That's a good analogy. That's what I am asking for. But big black boxes contain lesser black boxes and so on ad infinitum. I want the middle sized black box. Another way of looking at it is that I want to learn what the tools used by PS actually are. I've done a lot of work on wooden boats in my time and I have always learned what the various wood working tools do before I start using them. Virtually all of the books on PS skip that stage and start by telling you to pick up the plane provided in the instruction kitset, to then set the blade levelling lever to so and so, to adjust the depth screw to such and such and then to apply it to the block of wood supplied in the kitset. If you do that you achieve the end described in the instructions but you have learned damn-all about how to use a plane. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#55
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 15:14:34 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote: On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 15:39:17 -0700, Savageduck wrote: On Mar 23, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote (in ): On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 19:44:34 -0400, "Mayayana" wrote: --- snip --- I'm sorry if that's not what you're looking for. I just don't know what else you can find out. It seemed clear enough to me when I wrote the original post but it's obvious I didn't make myself clear. Thinking about it, what I need is the equivalent of block diagrams with explanatory text. Sticking with my original example: what goes on inside PS when one creates a clipping mask? What graphic elements are used and how are they manipulated behind the scenes? I still don’t get where you are going, or what sort of thought exercise you are entertaining with this search into the inner workings of PS. For that matter you might as well ask for the same information on Alienskin Exposure X3, On1 Photo Raw 2018, Affinity Photo, etc. After all they all follow similar principles when it comes to creating clipping masks, and other graphics editing staples. What are you trying to achieve other than a thought exercise? Does it matter? I just would like to know. It matters only if you want to keep getting the same answers that don't answer your question, or if you'd rather get answers that do... |
#56
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote: i just tested the wikipedia link again and it works without issue. the problem is clearly at *your* end, not wikipedia. They were working for me but they are both now bringing up the message for which I have already given you a screen shot. then there is something is wrong at your end. You are so sure ... has it occured to you that Wikipedia has (a hell of a lot) more than one server and and that for a variety of reasons they may not all be synchronised? has it occurred to you that the web pages in question have been on wikipedia's servers for quite some time, so even if something was not in sync, the worst that would happen is you'd miss any changes in the last day or two. why do you refuse to admit there's a problem at your end? it's time for some troubleshooting. If you had read my original post you would know that I do not want algorithms. i did and you did. Among other things I wrote "This doesn't mean that I want to know the actual code but I would like to know what the code is doing." I suppose you could that interpret that as a request for an algorithm but I actually intended reference to something higher up the chain than an algorithm. that would be conceptual, which was also explained. But the name of a book ... you have already said there are many of them but you have yet to give me the name of one. any book on image processing algorithms. Not just any book. I want a book dealing with PS. why? masking, compositing, clipping paths and regions are not unique to photoshop so a book on photoshop isn't going to offer anything versus a general image processing text book. other than that, consider it to be a magical black box. except now you say you don't want to learn about algorithms. I don't need to go to that depth. then you should be able to figure out how it works. it's rather simple. |
#57
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 00:15:19 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: i just tested the wikipedia link again and it works without issue. the problem is clearly at *your* end, not wikipedia. They were working for me but they are both now bringing up the message for which I have already given you a screen shot. then there is something is wrong at your end. You are so sure ... has it occured to you that Wikipedia has (a hell of a lot) more than one server and and that for a variety of reasons they may not all be synchronised? has it occurred to you that the web pages in question have been on wikipedia's servers for quite some time, so even if something was not in sync, the worst that would happen is you'd miss any changes in the last day or two. why do you refuse to admit there's a problem at your end? Because the Wikipedia page correctly echoes the URL. I'm getting exactly what the URL calls for. Why can you conceive of no other reason than a fault at my end? it's time for some troubleshooting. If you had read my original post you would know that I do not want algorithms. i did and you did. Among other things I wrote "This doesn't mean that I want to know the actual code but I would like to know what the code is doing." I suppose you could that interpret that as a request for an algorithm but I actually intended reference to something higher up the chain than an algorithm. that would be conceptual, which was also explained. But the name of a book ... you have already said there are many of them but you have yet to give me the name of one. any book on image processing algorithms. Not just any book. I want a book dealing with PS. why? masking, compositing, clipping paths and regions are not unique to photoshop so a book on photoshop isn't going to offer anything versus a general image processing text book. Thank you for confirming that you haven't understood what I was asking for. other than that, consider it to be a magical black box. I know that's how you think. Do you remember our discussion about PRINT in Windows? As far as you were concerned the comand PRINT shot the file straight off to the printer driver. except now you say you don't want to learn about algorithms. I don't need to go to that depth. then you should be able to figure out how it works. it's rather simple. Well, you explain what happens when you get PS to set up clipping mask. What are the internal enities that PS uses? -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#58
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
"Ron C" wrote
| Have you not learned to deal with black boxes? I think it's a matter of personality types. Some of us need to understand the concept. It's interesting how some other people are actually annoyed by the desire to understand. I remember hearing someone on the radio many years ago, talking about quasi-Jungian types and using a car salesman as an example. One type wants to drive the car and feel it. Another type wants the bottom line. They have little patience, so they want to know the cost and main selling point. They'll go back in a non-linear way to ask about any other points that interest them. Another type is mainly concerned with an emotional relationship to the car. Can I get it in red? Another type may view the process mainly as a dealmaking scenario. It's a sport they're playing with the salesman. Then there's the linear thinker. They want a clear explanation, step by step. What are the pros and cons, how much, what's the interest rate, what are the payments. How important is ABS?... They have trouble grasping the overall situation until they've got the details filled in. I think Eric's example of the plane is a good one. He describes rote instructions. For some people such instructions are irritating and confusing until one understands the concept of what the plane does. |
#59
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote: i just tested the wikipedia link again and it works without issue. the problem is clearly at *your* end, not wikipedia. They were working for me but they are both now bringing up the message for which I have already given you a screen shot. then there is something is wrong at your end. You are so sure ... has it occured to you that Wikipedia has (a hell of a lot) more than one server and and that for a variety of reasons they may not all be synchronised? has it occurred to you that the web pages in question have been on wikipedia's servers for quite some time, so even if something was not in sync, the worst that would happen is you'd miss any changes in the last day or two. why do you refuse to admit there's a problem at your end? Because the Wikipedia page correctly echoes the URL. I'm getting exactly what the URL calls for. Why can you conceive of no other reason than a fault at my end? because it works properly every single time i try, only you has mentioned a problem, you use a broken newsreader and refuse to upgrade and the last time this happened it was a problem at your end. what evidence do you have that it's wikipedia? If you had read my original post you would know that I do not want algorithms. i did and you did. Among other things I wrote "This doesn't mean that I want to know the actual code but I would like to know what the code is doing." I suppose you could that interpret that as a request for an algorithm but I actually intended reference to something higher up the chain than an algorithm. that would be conceptual, which was also explained. But the name of a book ... you have already said there are many of them but you have yet to give me the name of one. any book on image processing algorithms. Not just any book. I want a book dealing with PS. why? masking, compositing, clipping paths and regions are not unique to photoshop so a book on photoshop isn't going to offer anything versus a general image processing text book. Thank you for confirming that you haven't understood what I was asking for. you don't know what you're asking for. other than that, consider it to be a magical black box. I know that's how you think. Do you remember our discussion about PRINT in Windows? As far as you were concerned the comand PRINT shot the file straight off to the printer driver. that's what happens. the image is rendered to a graphics port which happens to be a printer and not a window on screen. the rendering code is the same, which is how it's wysiwyg. except now you say you don't want to learn about algorithms. I don't need to go to that depth. then you should be able to figure out how it works. it's rather simple. Well, you explain what happens when you get PS to set up clipping mask. i did. What are the internal enities that PS uses? paths. |
#60
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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".
"Eric Stevens" wrote
| What are the bottom block and the top block? | I'm not sure we're seeing the same operation. | | How about: | | 1. Make selection to be used as clipping mask. That's not a bottom and top block, but I'll give it a try. If my answer doesn't seem useful then maybe it would make sense to try it the other way around: You describe what you see and what part you don't grasp. Making a selection: First, it's important to understand the role of the operating system, which is a "platform for software". The OS is like a workshop full of tools. Software uses those tools. Windows (or any other OS) is the go-between between hardware and installed software. Software mostly just responds. A big part of that is messages. For software to work it needs to register with the OS to receive messages. Messages inform the software of hardware and system events. So PS registers for mouse-up, mouse-down, keyboard, etc. Every time you press a key or use the mouse, if the PS window is the active window then it receives messages from the system: mouse-down.... mouse-up....key68 down...key68 up... So.... 1) You choose the selection tool. That tells PS to interpret messages in terms of selection. 2) You press the mouse button down. PS gets a message. You drag the mouse and then let it up. PS gets a message. At those two points, PS can ask the system for the mouse coordinates. They're provided as part of the message. Assume your image is 100x100 pixels, in 100px from the screen edge. It's also 100px down from the top of the screen. Windows tells PS that the mouse went down at 120,120 and came up at 140,150. PS then adjusts for the offset of the window onscreen and calculates that you've selected an area 20x30, with a top left corner at 20px from the left edge of the image and 20px down, while the bottom right corner is 40px from the left and 50 px down from the top-left of the image. (Usually you can see those numbers in the status bar as you move the mouse.) So now PS knows that you're using the selection tool and that you've dragged the mouse and released the button. It knows the selection. It then paints that rectangle onscreen and remembers the coordinates, but doesn't add that line rectangle to the image. It leaves the painted selection rectangle until you decide to do something else or cancel the selection. If you then decide to take another action, like a clipping mask, PS knows the area you intend. So at that level, it's really all a matter of responding to system messages, or "events", as they come through from Windows. Running software works by just running a loop to maintain stasis, presenting the illusion of being a continuing entity, then setting event hook functions to respond to events. The context of the event is decided by the window with focus. If you click in a text window then Windows will send that mouse click message to the parent window, and the next keydown message will go to the parent window, marked as targetted to the text window. It's not obvious without knowing all that, but that's why it's called Windows. The whole idea of creating a graphical interface that way is what underlies a modern, graphical OS. The trick is to define areas onscreen as objects, so that they can receive messages. It's all just an abstracted sleight of hand that's mostly managed by the OS itself. All the software needs to do is to call the OS and say, "I want a window, to such and such specifications. Send me these messages." The OS then creates the window and gives the software control of it. It then, also, starts sending messages when relevant. That allows multiple processes to operate independently, as opposed to the old DOS system that only allowed keyboard input to a single process. There's actually a program from Microsoft called Spy++. There are probably other similar programs. They allow you to pick any open window and track the messages sent to it. (Which is how a spyware keylogger works: It sets up a global hook to get *all* messages from the keyboard, regardless of what window is active.) Each message comes through with two 4-byte numbers, known as lParan and wParam. For example, the message WM_LBUTTONDOWN, which also represents a number. (It's all just numbers once you get below the surface.) So the window gets a message like (I'm just making up these numbers): 1082 23110 1044983 The first number signifies the message, like mouse-down. The second provides extra info, like whether system keys were pressed at the time. The third number holds the x,y coordinates of the cursor, as 2 2-byte numbers. |
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