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I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".



 
 
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  #51  
Old March 24th 18, 04:31 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
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Posts: 16,487
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

On Mar 23, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote
(in ):

On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 15:39:17 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On Mar 23, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote
(in ):

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 19:44:34 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

--- snip ---

I'm sorry if that's not what you're looking for. I
just don't know what else you can find out.

It seemed clear enough to me when I wrote the original post but it's
obvious I didn't make myself clear. Thinking about it, what I need is
the equivalent of block diagrams with explanatory text. Sticking with
my original example: what goes on inside PS when one creates a
clipping mask? What graphic elements are used and how are they
manipulated behind the scenes?


I still don’t get where you are going, or what sort of thought exercise
you
are entertaining with this search into the inner workings of PS. For that
matter you might as well ask for the same information on Alienskin Exposure
X3, On1 Photo Raw 2018, Affinity Photo, etc. After all they all follow
similar principles when it comes to creating clipping masks, and other
graphics editing staples.

What are you trying to achieve other than a thought exercise?


Does it matter? I just would like to know.


....er, OK then. I certainly have nothing to contribute here. Things have been
muddied more than enough by all the expertise on display.

I have P3 of the Australian F1 GP to watch right now, and then qualifying a
bit later. So you guys carry on.

--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #52  
Old March 24th 18, 04:34 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 22:23:01 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

chances are your ****ty newsreader mangled the url and you refuse to
admit that it has once again, ****ed you over.


Here is screen shot of part of the article you wrote including the
URLs you gave
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ldr8tdhm9...ture2.JPG?dl=0

Is there anything wrong with those?


that looks ok.

i just tested the wikipedia link again and it works without issue. the
problem is clearly at *your* end, not wikipedia.


They were working for me but they are both now bringing up the message
for which I have already given you a screen shot.


then there is something is wrong at your end.


You are so sure ... has it occured to you that Wikipedia has (a hell
of a lot) more than one server and and that for a variety of reasons
they may not all be synchronised?

it's time for some troubleshooting.

If you had read my original post you would know that I do not want
algorithms.

i did and you did.

Among other things I wrote "This doesn't mean that I want to know the
actual code but I would like to know what the code is doing."

I suppose you could that interpret that as a request for an algorithm
but I actually intended reference to something higher up the chain
than an algorithm.

that would be conceptual, which was also explained.


But the name of a book ... you have already said there are many of
them but you have yet to give me the name of one.


any book on image processing algorithms.


Not just any book. I want a book dealing with PS.

except now you say you don't want to learn about algorithms.


I don't need to go to that depth.

that tells me you don't know what you want, which means nobody can
suggest a book because you'll just say it contains the wrong stuff.


Hmpff.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #53  
Old March 24th 18, 04:35 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 22:23:02 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

In article , Mayayana
wrote:
I have trouble dealing with
things if I can't understand them,

then you must have an enormous amount of trouble in this world.


Would you extend that to claiming that you deal with things even if
you don't understand them?


i don't have a problem dealing with things i don't understand.


Haw.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #54  
Old March 24th 18, 04:44 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 22:40:30 -0400, Ron C wrote:

On 3/23/2018 10:17 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 19:35:23 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

I have trouble dealing with
things if I can't understand them,

then you must have an enormous amount of trouble in this world.


Would you extend that to claiming that you deal with things even if
you don't understand them?

I'm having trouble working back to the quote fragments:

" I have trouble dealing with"
"things if I can't understand them,"
~~
Anyway, way back in the day I had a lot of trouble
dealing with early integrated circuits because I
had no idea what happened inside. In time I learned
to deal with "black boxes" when only knowing
their transfer function.
Back then I spent a lot of time looking up the
circuits within the ICs, only to later find that
that level of detail didn't matter.
~~
Have you not learned to deal with black boxes?


That's a good analogy. That's what I am asking for. But big black
boxes contain lesser black boxes and so on ad infinitum. I want the
middle sized black box.

Another way of looking at it is that I want to learn what the tools
used by PS actually are. I've done a lot of work on wooden boats in my
time and I have always learned what the various wood working tools do
before I start using them. Virtually all of the books on PS skip that
stage and start by telling you to pick up the plane provided in the
instruction kitset, to then set the blade levelling lever to so and
so, to adjust the depth screw to such and such and then to apply it to
the block of wood supplied in the kitset. If you do that you achieve
the end described in the instructions but you have learned damn-all
about how to use a plane.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #55  
Old March 24th 18, 05:12 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Bill W
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,692
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 15:14:34 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 15:39:17 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On Mar 23, 2018, Eric Stevens wrote
(in ):

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 19:44:34 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

--- snip ---

I'm sorry if that's not what you're looking for. I
just don't know what else you can find out.

It seemed clear enough to me when I wrote the original post but it's
obvious I didn't make myself clear. Thinking about it, what I need is
the equivalent of block diagrams with explanatory text. Sticking with
my original example: what goes on inside PS when one creates a
clipping mask? What graphic elements are used and how are they
manipulated behind the scenes?


I still don’t get where you are going, or what sort of thought exercise you
are entertaining with this search into the inner workings of PS. For that
matter you might as well ask for the same information on Alienskin Exposure
X3, On1 Photo Raw 2018, Affinity Photo, etc. After all they all follow
similar principles when it comes to creating clipping masks, and other
graphics editing staples.

What are you trying to achieve other than a thought exercise?


Does it matter? I just would like to know.


It matters only if you want to keep getting the same answers that
don't answer your question, or if you'd rather get answers that do...
  #56  
Old March 24th 18, 05:15 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

i just tested the wikipedia link again and it works without issue. the
problem is clearly at *your* end, not wikipedia.

They were working for me but they are both now bringing up the message
for which I have already given you a screen shot.


then there is something is wrong at your end.


You are so sure ... has it occured to you that Wikipedia has (a hell
of a lot) more than one server and and that for a variety of reasons
they may not all be synchronised?


has it occurred to you that the web pages in question have been on
wikipedia's servers for quite some time, so even if something was not
in sync, the worst that would happen is you'd miss any changes in the
last day or two.

why do you refuse to admit there's a problem at your end?


it's time for some troubleshooting.

If you had read my original post you would know that I do not want
algorithms.

i did and you did.

Among other things I wrote "This doesn't mean that I want to know the
actual code but I would like to know what the code is doing."

I suppose you could that interpret that as a request for an algorithm
but I actually intended reference to something higher up the chain
than an algorithm.

that would be conceptual, which was also explained.

But the name of a book ... you have already said there are many of
them but you have yet to give me the name of one.


any book on image processing algorithms.


Not just any book. I want a book dealing with PS.


why? masking, compositing, clipping paths and regions are not unique to
photoshop so a book on photoshop isn't going to offer anything versus a
general image processing text book.

other than that, consider it to be a magical black box.

except now you say you don't want to learn about algorithms.


I don't need to go to that depth.


then you should be able to figure out how it works. it's rather simple.
  #57  
Old March 24th 18, 09:36 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 00:15:19 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

i just tested the wikipedia link again and it works without issue. the
problem is clearly at *your* end, not wikipedia.

They were working for me but they are both now bringing up the message
for which I have already given you a screen shot.

then there is something is wrong at your end.


You are so sure ... has it occured to you that Wikipedia has (a hell
of a lot) more than one server and and that for a variety of reasons
they may not all be synchronised?


has it occurred to you that the web pages in question have been on
wikipedia's servers for quite some time, so even if something was not
in sync, the worst that would happen is you'd miss any changes in the
last day or two.

why do you refuse to admit there's a problem at your end?


Because the Wikipedia page correctly echoes the URL. I'm getting
exactly what the URL calls for.

Why can you conceive of no other reason than a fault at my end?


it's time for some troubleshooting.

If you had read my original post you would know that I do not want
algorithms.

i did and you did.

Among other things I wrote "This doesn't mean that I want to know the
actual code but I would like to know what the code is doing."

I suppose you could that interpret that as a request for an algorithm
but I actually intended reference to something higher up the chain
than an algorithm.

that would be conceptual, which was also explained.

But the name of a book ... you have already said there are many of
them but you have yet to give me the name of one.

any book on image processing algorithms.


Not just any book. I want a book dealing with PS.


why? masking, compositing, clipping paths and regions are not unique to
photoshop so a book on photoshop isn't going to offer anything versus a
general image processing text book.


Thank you for confirming that you haven't understood what I was asking
for.

other than that, consider it to be a magical black box.


I know that's how you think. Do you remember our discussion about
PRINT in Windows? As far as you were concerned the comand PRINT shot
the file straight off to the printer driver.

except now you say you don't want to learn about algorithms.


I don't need to go to that depth.


then you should be able to figure out how it works. it's rather simple.


Well, you explain what happens when you get PS to set up clipping
mask. What are the internal enities that PS uses?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #58  
Old March 24th 18, 02:51 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,514
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

"Ron C" wrote

| Have you not learned to deal with black boxes?

I think it's a matter of personality types. Some
of us need to understand the concept. It's
interesting how some other people are actually
annoyed by the desire to understand.

I remember hearing someone on the radio many
years ago, talking about quasi-Jungian types and
using a car salesman as an example. One type
wants to drive the car and feel it. Another type
wants the bottom line. They have little patience,
so they want to know the cost and main selling
point. They'll go back in a non-linear way to ask
about any other points that interest them. Another
type is mainly concerned with an emotional
relationship to the car. Can I get it in red?
Another type may view the process mainly as
a dealmaking scenario. It's a sport they're playing
with the salesman.
Then there's the linear thinker. They want a
clear explanation, step by step. What are the
pros and cons, how much, what's the interest rate,
what are the payments. How important is ABS?...
They have trouble grasping the overall situation
until they've got the details filled in.

I think Eric's example of the plane is a good one.
He describes rote instructions. For some people such
instructions are irritating and confusing until one
understands the concept of what the plane does.


  #59  
Old March 24th 18, 03:36 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

i just tested the wikipedia link again and it works without issue. the
problem is clearly at *your* end, not wikipedia.

They were working for me but they are both now bringing up the message
for which I have already given you a screen shot.

then there is something is wrong at your end.

You are so sure ... has it occured to you that Wikipedia has (a hell
of a lot) more than one server and and that for a variety of reasons
they may not all be synchronised?


has it occurred to you that the web pages in question have been on
wikipedia's servers for quite some time, so even if something was not
in sync, the worst that would happen is you'd miss any changes in the
last day or two.

why do you refuse to admit there's a problem at your end?


Because the Wikipedia page correctly echoes the URL. I'm getting
exactly what the URL calls for.

Why can you conceive of no other reason than a fault at my end?


because it works properly every single time i try, only you has
mentioned a problem, you use a broken newsreader and refuse to upgrade
and the last time this happened it was a problem at your end.

what evidence do you have that it's wikipedia?

If you had read my original post you would know that I do not want
algorithms.

i did and you did.

Among other things I wrote "This doesn't mean that I want to know the
actual code but I would like to know what the code is doing."

I suppose you could that interpret that as a request for an algorithm
but I actually intended reference to something higher up the chain
than an algorithm.

that would be conceptual, which was also explained.

But the name of a book ... you have already said there are many of
them but you have yet to give me the name of one.

any book on image processing algorithms.

Not just any book. I want a book dealing with PS.


why? masking, compositing, clipping paths and regions are not unique to
photoshop so a book on photoshop isn't going to offer anything versus a
general image processing text book.


Thank you for confirming that you haven't understood what I was asking
for.


you don't know what you're asking for.

other than that, consider it to be a magical black box.


I know that's how you think. Do you remember our discussion about
PRINT in Windows? As far as you were concerned the comand PRINT shot
the file straight off to the printer driver.


that's what happens.

the image is rendered to a graphics port which happens to be a printer
and not a window on screen. the rendering code is the same, which is
how it's wysiwyg.

except now you say you don't want to learn about algorithms.

I don't need to go to that depth.


then you should be able to figure out how it works. it's rather simple.


Well, you explain what happens when you get PS to set up clipping
mask.


i did.

What are the internal enities that PS uses?


paths.
  #60  
Old March 24th 18, 03:43 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,514
Default I'm looking for a book on Photoshop - 'Inside Photoshop".

"Eric Stevens" wrote

| What are the bottom block and the top block?
| I'm not sure we're seeing the same operation.
|
| How about:
|
| 1. Make selection to be used as clipping mask.


That's not a bottom and top block, but I'll give
it a try. If my answer doesn't seem useful then
maybe it would make sense to try it the other
way around: You describe what you see and what
part you don't grasp.

Making a selection:

First, it's important to understand the role of the
operating system, which is a "platform for software".
The OS is like a workshop full of tools. Software
uses those tools. Windows (or any other OS)
is the go-between between hardware and installed
software. Software mostly just responds.

A big part of that is messages. For software to
work it needs to register with the OS to receive
messages. Messages inform the software of hardware
and system events. So PS registers for mouse-up,
mouse-down, keyboard, etc. Every time you press a
key or use the mouse, if the PS window is the active
window then it receives messages from the system:

mouse-down.... mouse-up....key68 down...key68 up...

So....

1) You choose the selection tool. That tells PS to
interpret messages in terms of selection.

2) You press the mouse button down. PS gets a
message. You drag the mouse and then let it up.
PS gets a message.

At those two points, PS can ask the system for
the mouse coordinates. They're provided as part of the
message. Assume your image is 100x100 pixels, in
100px from the screen edge. It's also 100px down
from the top of the screen. Windows tells PS
that the mouse went down at 120,120 and came up
at 140,150. PS then adjusts for the offset of the
window onscreen and calculates that you've selected
an area 20x30, with a top left corner at 20px from
the left edge of the image and 20px down, while
the bottom right corner is 40px from the left and
50 px down from the top-left of the image.

(Usually you can see those numbers in the status bar
as you move the mouse.)

So now PS knows that you're using the selection tool
and that you've dragged the mouse and released the
button. It knows the selection. It then paints that
rectangle onscreen and remembers the coordinates,
but doesn't add that line rectangle to the image.
It leaves the painted selection rectangle until you
decide to do something else or cancel the selection.

If you then decide to take another action, like a
clipping mask, PS knows the area you intend.

So at that level, it's really all a matter of responding
to system messages, or "events", as they come through
from Windows.

Running software works by just running a loop
to maintain stasis, presenting the illusion of being
a continuing entity, then setting event hook functions
to respond to events. The context of the event is
decided by the window with focus. If you click in
a text window then Windows will send that mouse click
message to the parent window, and the next keydown
message will go to the parent window, marked as
targetted to the text window.

It's not obvious without knowing all that, but that's
why it's called Windows. The whole idea of creating a
graphical interface that way is what underlies a modern,
graphical OS. The trick is to define areas onscreen as
objects, so that they can receive messages. It's all
just an abstracted sleight of hand that's mostly managed
by the OS itself. All the software needs to do is to
call the OS and say, "I want a window, to such and
such specifications. Send me these messages." The
OS then creates the window and gives the software
control of it. It then, also, starts sending messages
when relevant. That allows multiple processes to
operate independently, as opposed to the old DOS
system that only allowed keyboard input to a single
process.

There's actually a program from Microsoft called Spy++.
There are probably other similar programs. They allow
you to pick any open window and track the messages
sent to it. (Which is how a spyware keylogger works:
It sets up a global hook to get *all* messages from
the keyboard, regardless of what window is active.)

Each message comes through with two 4-byte
numbers, known as lParan and wParam. For example,
the message WM_LBUTTONDOWN, which also represents
a number.
(It's all just numbers once you get below the surface.)
So the window gets a message like (I'm just making
up these numbers):

1082 23110 1044983

The first number signifies the message, like mouse-down.
The second provides extra info, like whether system keys
were pressed at the time. The third number holds the
x,y coordinates of the cursor, as 2 2-byte numbers.


 




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