SB800 Nikon flash question (with D70)

If I bounce the sb800 off the ceiling (using TTL mode) will I generally need
a + exposure compensation setting? How is this done? If I bounce off the
ceiling should I bother with the rounded diffusion dome accessory, or does
just bouncing off the ceiling diffuse the light enough that it's not worth
putting the dome on?

If I bounce off the small supplied white card (by sliding it out) I can no
longer use the diffusion dome (it won't go on). So if I want to try
bouncing off the card should I also use the small rectangular (flat
diffuser) to bounce additional light off the ceiling or not bother to use
that? Is + exposure compensation needed when bouncing off the little white
card they supply?

On 15 Jan 2005 in rec.photo.digital, larrylook wrote:

If I bounce the sb800 off the ceiling (using TTL mode) will I
generally need a + exposure compensation setting?

No. Not unless you need the compensation normally. The flash/camera
system computes the exposure regardless of how you aim the flash.

How is this
done? If I bounce off the ceiling should I bother with the rounded
diffusion dome accessory, or does just bouncing off the ceiling
diffuse the light enough that it's not worth putting the dome on?

If I bounce off the small supplied white card (by sliding it out) I
can no longer use the diffusion dome (it won't go on). So if I want
to try bouncing off the card should I also use the small rectangular
(flat diffuser) to bounce additional light off the ceiling or not
bother to use that? Is + exposure compensation needed when bouncing
off the little white card they supply?

Have you tried any of these? It's a digital camera; button clicks are
cheap. Do the experiments and see how they look.

--
Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe

"larrylook" writes:

If I bounce the sb800 off the ceiling (using TTL mode) will I
generally need a + exposure compensation setting? How is this done?
If I bounce off the ceiling should I bother with the rounded
diffusion dome accessory, or does just bouncing off the ceiling
diffuse the light enough that it's not worth putting the dome on?

No special compensation needed for bounce in TTL mode.

The "diffusion dome" gives you more of a bare-bulb look than a
diffused look. It's somewhat different from ceiling bounce (it
depends on ceiling and wall bounce a lot). Play with it, decide what
you like in different kinds of rooms. There's no "right" and "wrong"
here! This is art. Bouncing off the ceiling will give softer light
than the diffusion dome thingy, in my experience.

If I bounce off the small supplied white card (by sliding it out) I
can no longer use the diffusion dome (it won't go on). So if I want
to try bouncing off the card should I also use the small rectangular
(flat diffuser) to bounce additional light off the ceiling or not
bother to use that? Is + exposure compensation needed when bouncing
off the little white card they supply?

No exposure compensation, no (in ttl mode). The little white card is
a variable fill reflector. When bouncing off the ceiling, especially
close up, you'll tend to get dark shadows under the eyes and chin.
The fill reflector opens those dark areas up and makes them look
better.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

"larrylook" writes:

If I bounce the sb800 off the ceiling (using TTL mode) will I
generally need a + exposure compensation setting? How is this done?
If I bounce off the ceiling should I bother with the rounded
diffusion dome accessory, or does just bouncing off the ceiling
diffuse the light enough that it's not worth putting the dome on?

No special compensation needed for bounce in TTL mode.

The "diffusion dome" gives you more of a bare-bulb look than a
diffused look. It's somewhat different from ceiling bounce (it
depends on ceiling and wall bounce a lot). Play with it, decide what
you like in different kinds of rooms. There's no "right" and "wrong"
here! This is art. Bouncing off the ceiling will give softer light
than the diffusion dome thingy, in my experience.

If I bounce off the small supplied white card (by sliding it out) I
can no longer use the diffusion dome (it won't go on). So if I want
to try bouncing off the card should I also use the small rectangular
(flat diffuser) to bounce additional light off the ceiling or not
bother to use that? Is + exposure compensation needed when bouncing
off the little white card they supply?

No exposure compensation, no (in ttl mode). The little white card is
a variable fill reflector. When bouncing off the ceiling, especially
close up, you'll tend to get dark shadows under the eyes and chin.
The fill reflector opens those dark areas up and makes them look
better.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...
"larrylook" writes:

If I bounce the sb800 off the ceiling (using TTL mode) will I
generally need a + exposure compensation setting? How is this done?
If I bounce off the ceiling should I bother with the rounded
diffusion dome accessory, or does just bouncing off the ceiling
diffuse the light enough that it's not worth putting the dome on?

No special compensation needed for bounce in TTL mode.

The "diffusion dome" gives you more of a bare-bulb look than a
diffused look. It's somewhat different from ceiling bounce (it
depends on ceiling and wall bounce a lot). Play with it, decide what
you like in different kinds of rooms. There's no "right" and "wrong"
here! This is art. Bouncing off the ceiling will give softer light
than the diffusion dome thingy, in my experience.

When you say bare bulb, do you mean if diff. dome is pointed right at the
subject? So maybe I should bounce off ceiling and not use dome, since I
want diffused light. Maybe no point for me to put on the d. dome, if I'm
bouncing off ceiling. Or should I use the dome and bounce too. I know
there's no 1 answer, but happy for any advise or thoughts, since I'm a
newbie. What you do yourself may be a good starting point for me.


If I bounce off the small supplied white card (by sliding it out) I
can no longer use the diffusion dome (it won't go on). So if I want
to try bouncing off the card should I also use the small rectangular
(flat diffuser) to bounce additional light off the ceiling or not
bother to use that? Is + exposure compensation needed when bouncing
off the little white card they supply?

No exposure compensation, no (in ttl mode). The little white card is
a variable fill reflector. When bouncing off the ceiling, especially
close up, you'll tend to get dark shadows under the eyes and chin.
The fill reflector opens those dark areas up and makes them look
better.

I realize there's no one right answer. When you (or anyone) use white card
(fill reflector) do you put flash straight up (0 degrees) or perhaps use 20
degrees (slightly angled toward subject) (say ceiling is 9-10 ft high and
subject is 4-7 feet away? Do you also put on the small wide-angle
rectangular diffuser (I don't know it's correct name) - or leave it off -
when bouncing with white card? If photographing people do you advise always
using the white card to avoid racoon eyes? When would you choose diff. dome
and bounce off ceiling without card (over using white bounce card)? Thanks
for any suggestions.


--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/
http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

"larrylook" writes:

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...
"larrylook" writes:

If I bounce the sb800 off the ceiling (using TTL mode) will I
generally need a + exposure compensation setting? How is this done?
If I bounce off the ceiling should I bother with the rounded
diffusion dome accessory, or does just bouncing off the ceiling
diffuse the light enough that it's not worth putting the dome on?

No special compensation needed for bounce in TTL mode.

The "diffusion dome" gives you more of a bare-bulb look than a
diffused look. It's somewhat different from ceiling bounce (it
depends on ceiling and wall bounce a lot). Play with it, decide what
you like in different kinds of rooms. There's no "right" and "wrong"
here! This is art. Bouncing off the ceiling will give softer light
than the diffusion dome thingy, in my experience.

When you say bare bulb, do you mean if diff. dome is pointed right at the
subject? So maybe I should bounce off ceiling and not use dome, since I
want diffused light. Maybe no point for me to put on the d. dome, if I'm
bouncing off ceiling. Or should I use the dome and bounce too. I know
there's no 1 answer, but happy for any advise or thoughts, since I'm a
newbie. What you do yourself may be a good starting point for me.

The diffusion dome thingy is normally used pointed towards the
ceiling. It sends quite a bit of the light forward, backwards, and to
the sides, through the other 4 sides of the thingy. I find it depends
on the room, and perhaps on the type of shots I'm taking. *Mostly* I
choose to bounce off the ceiling, with various amounts of fill from
the little reflector. If you were looking for a diffused look,
that'll probably work better for you than the dome.

If I bounce off the small supplied white card (by sliding it out) I
can no longer use the diffusion dome (it won't go on). So if I want
to try bouncing off the card should I also use the small rectangular
(flat diffuser) to bounce additional light off the ceiling or not
bother to use that? Is + exposure compensation needed when bouncing
off the little white card they supply?

No exposure compensation, no (in ttl mode). The little white card is
a variable fill reflector. When bouncing off the ceiling, especially
close up, you'll tend to get dark shadows under the eyes and chin.
The fill reflector opens those dark areas up and makes them look
better.

I realize there's no one right answer. When you (or anyone) use
white card (fill reflector) do you put flash straight up (0 degrees)
or perhaps use 20 degrees (slightly angled toward subject) (say
ceiling is 9-10 ft high and subject is 4-7 feet away? Do you also
put on the small wide-angle rectangular diffuser (I don't know it's
correct name) - or leave it off - when bouncing with white card? If
photographing people do you advise always using the white card to
avoid racoon eyes? When would you choose diff. dome and bounce off
ceiling without card (over using white bounce card)? Thanks for any
suggestions.

In the 4-7 foot range I'll generally point the flash straight up. At
that close range it also depends a lot on subject height vs. camera
position; if I'm pointing the camera *down*, I'll sometimes turn the
flash around and point it *backwards* a bit, to move the bright area
on the ceiling (the "light source" in terms of lighting angle and
hardness/softness) more away from directly above the subject.

Assuming a level camera, I'll start tilting the flash forward a bit
out beyond 15 feet or so. Especially on the wider settings, it's easy
to get the fringes of the *direct* beam on the subject if you tilt the
flash too far forward, and this rarely works well -- it's hard light
(which you must not have wanted, or you wouldn't be bouncing), and
often it catches only the *top half* of the subject, so you get a lot
of lighting variation across the picture -- this is not good! So I'm
pretty careful about tilting the flash forward.

For flash zoom (and wideangle panel), think in terms of the size spot
of light you'll be making on the ceiling, and then think in terms of
that as an umbrella or light-box size, and try to get it the size you
need for the degree of hardness/softness you want in the lighting.
Even if none of these things are at all automatic for you yet, I hope
the *concept* gets you thinking in the right direction.

I pretty much always use the white card (or regret forgetting it) at
ranges under 15 feet, anyway.

I liked the way you phrased this round of questions, by the way. By
making it clear that you understood the lack of absolutes, you helped
me worry less about accidentally sounding absolute. I'm happy to talk
about how I do things and why, but worry sometimes (perhaps more than
necessary in this group of individualists!) about sounding too
absolute when I don't mean to be.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

"larrylook" writes:

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...
"larrylook" writes:

If I bounce the sb800 off the ceiling (using TTL mode) will I
generally need a + exposure compensation setting? How is this done?
If I bounce off the ceiling should I bother with the rounded
diffusion dome accessory, or does just bouncing off the ceiling
diffuse the light enough that it's not worth putting the dome on?

No special compensation needed for bounce in TTL mode.

The "diffusion dome" gives you more of a bare-bulb look than a
diffused look. It's somewhat different from ceiling bounce (it
depends on ceiling and wall bounce a lot). Play with it, decide what
you like in different kinds of rooms. There's no "right" and "wrong"
here! This is art. Bouncing off the ceiling will give softer light
than the diffusion dome thingy, in my experience.

When you say bare bulb, do you mean if diff. dome is pointed right at the
subject? So maybe I should bounce off ceiling and not use dome, since I
want diffused light. Maybe no point for me to put on the d. dome, if I'm
bouncing off ceiling. Or should I use the dome and bounce too. I know
there's no 1 answer, but happy for any advise or thoughts, since I'm a
newbie. What you do yourself may be a good starting point for me.

The diffusion dome thingy is normally used pointed towards the
ceiling. It sends quite a bit of the light forward, backwards, and to
the sides, through the other 4 sides of the thingy. I find it depends
on the room, and perhaps on the type of shots I'm taking. *Mostly* I
choose to bounce off the ceiling, with various amounts of fill from
the little reflector. If you were looking for a diffused look,
that'll probably work better for you than the dome.

If I bounce off the small supplied white card (by sliding it out) I
can no longer use the diffusion dome (it won't go on). So if I want
to try bouncing off the card should I also use the small rectangular
(flat diffuser) to bounce additional light off the ceiling or not
bother to use that? Is + exposure compensation needed when bouncing
off the little white card they supply?

No exposure compensation, no (in ttl mode). The little white card is
a variable fill reflector. When bouncing off the ceiling, especially
close up, you'll tend to get dark shadows under the eyes and chin.
The fill reflector opens those dark areas up and makes them look
better.

I realize there's no one right answer. When you (or anyone) use
white card (fill reflector) do you put flash straight up (0 degrees)
or perhaps use 20 degrees (slightly angled toward subject) (say
ceiling is 9-10 ft high and subject is 4-7 feet away? Do you also
put on the small wide-angle rectangular diffuser (I don't know it's
correct name) - or leave it off - when bouncing with white card? If
photographing people do you advise always using the white card to
avoid racoon eyes? When would you choose diff. dome and bounce off
ceiling without card (over using white bounce card)? Thanks for any
suggestions.

In the 4-7 foot range I'll generally point the flash straight up. At
that close range it also depends a lot on subject height vs. camera
position; if I'm pointing the camera *down*, I'll sometimes turn the
flash around and point it *backwards* a bit, to move the bright area
on the ceiling (the "light source" in terms of lighting angle and
hardness/softness) more away from directly above the subject.

Assuming a level camera, I'll start tilting the flash forward a bit
out beyond 15 feet or so. Especially on the wider settings, it's easy
to get the fringes of the *direct* beam on the subject if you tilt the
flash too far forward, and this rarely works well -- it's hard light
(which you must not have wanted, or you wouldn't be bouncing), and
often it catches only the *top half* of the subject, so you get a lot
of lighting variation across the picture -- this is not good! So I'm
pretty careful about tilting the flash forward.

For flash zoom (and wideangle panel), think in terms of the size spot
of light you'll be making on the ceiling, and then think in terms of
that as an umbrella or light-box size, and try to get it the size you
need for the degree of hardness/softness you want in the lighting.
Even if none of these things are at all automatic for you yet, I hope
the *concept* gets you thinking in the right direction.

I pretty much always use the white card (or regret forgetting it) at
ranges under 15 feet, anyway.

I liked the way you phrased this round of questions, by the way. By
making it clear that you understood the lack of absolutes, you helped
me worry less about accidentally sounding absolute. I'm happy to talk
about how I do things and why, but worry sometimes (perhaps more than
necessary in this group of individualists!) about sounding too
absolute when I don't mean to be.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...
"larrylook" writes:

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...
"larrylook" writes:

If I bounce the sb800 off the ceiling (using TTL mode) will I
generally need a + exposure compensation setting? How is this done?
If I bounce off the ceiling should I bother with the rounded
diffusion dome accessory, or does just bouncing off the ceiling
diffuse the light enough that it's not worth putting the dome on?

No special compensation needed for bounce in TTL mode.

The "diffusion dome" gives you more of a bare-bulb look than a
diffused look. It's somewhat different from ceiling bounce (it
depends on ceiling and wall bounce a lot). Play with it, decide what
you like in different kinds of rooms. There's no "right" and "wrong"
here! This is art. Bouncing off the ceiling will give softer light
than the diffusion dome thingy, in my experience.

When you say bare bulb, do you mean if diff. dome is pointed right at
the
subject? So maybe I should bounce off ceiling and not use dome, since I
want diffused light. Maybe no point for me to put on the d. dome, if
I'm
bouncing off ceiling. Or should I use the dome and bounce too. I know
there's no 1 answer, but happy for any advise or thoughts, since I'm a
newbie. What you do yourself may be a good starting point for me.

The diffusion dome thingy is normally used pointed towards the
ceiling. It sends quite a bit of the light forward, backwards, and to
the sides, through the other 4 sides of the thingy. I find it depends
on the room, and perhaps on the type of shots I'm taking. *Mostly* I
choose to bounce off the ceiling, with various amounts of fill from
the little reflector. If you were looking for a diffused look,
that'll probably work better for you than the dome.

Thanks! All if this is so helpful since as you know I need a good starting
point and am happy for any opinions of those more experienced than me (which
is most here). So, interestingly, if I want a diffused look (which I think
I do) I'll probably be avoiding the diffusion dome ( which seems a bit
counterintuitive at first), and bouncing off the ceiling (without the dome)
and using the white card reflector. Do you see a point in putting on the
wide angle diffuser (small rectangle next to the white card) when doing
this? Or does just the act of bouncing the light off the ceiling diffuse
the light sufficiently?

With vertical shots (portrait as opposed to landscape) it's tough to bounce
off the ceiling and use the white card simultaneously. Aiming for the
ceiling with the flash doesn't seem condusive to aiming the white card
reflection towards the subject. Any suggestions here - besides removing the
flash which may be annoying and there's more to learn with that?


If I bounce off the small supplied white card (by sliding it out) I
can no longer use the diffusion dome (it won't go on). So if I want
to try bouncing off the card should I also use the small rectangular
(flat diffuser) to bounce additional light off the ceiling or not
bother to use that? Is + exposure compensation needed when bouncing
off the little white card they supply?

No exposure compensation, no (in ttl mode). The little white card is
a variable fill reflector. When bouncing off the ceiling, especially
close up, you'll tend to get dark shadows under the eyes and chin.
The fill reflector opens those dark areas up and makes them look
better.

I realize there's no one right answer. When you (or anyone) use
white card (fill reflector) do you put flash straight up (0 degrees)
or perhaps use 20 degrees (slightly angled toward subject) (say
ceiling is 9-10 ft high and subject is 4-7 feet away? Do you also
put on the small wide-angle rectangular diffuser (I don't know it's
correct name) - or leave it off - when bouncing with white card? If
photographing people do you advise always using the white card to
avoid racoon eyes? When would you choose diff. dome and bounce off
ceiling without card (over using white bounce card)? Thanks for any
suggestions.

In the 4-7 foot range I'll generally point the flash straight up. At
that close range it also depends a lot on subject height vs. camera
position; if I'm pointing the camera *down*, I'll sometimes turn the
flash around and point it *backwards* a bit, to move the bright area
on the ceiling (the "light source" in terms of lighting angle and
hardness/softness) more away from directly above the subject.

So you really aren't concerned about angle of inc. and angle of reflection
here? since you're aren't aiming the flash so it hits the subject after
bouncing of the ceiling. Previously I though about an imaginary line - that
you aim a spot on ceiling roughly half way between camera and subject.


Assuming a level camera, I'll start tilting the flash forward a bit
out beyond 15 feet or so. Especially on the wider settings, it's easy
to get the fringes of the *direct* beam on the subject if you tilt the
flash too far forward, and this rarely works well -- it's hard light
(which you must not have wanted, or you wouldn't be bouncing), and
often it catches only the *top half* of the subject, so you get a lot
of lighting variation across the picture -- this is not good! So I'm
pretty careful about tilting the flash forward.

For flash zoom (and wideangle panel), think in terms of the size spot
of light you'll be making on the ceiling, and then think in terms of
that as an umbrella or light-box size, and try to get it the size you
need for the degree of hardness/softness you want in the lighting.
Even if none of these things are at all automatic for you yet, I hope
the *concept* gets you thinking in the right direction.

I pretty much always use the white card (or regret forgetting it) at
ranges under 15 feet, anyway.

Why do some photographers use a huge white card. Is this really necessary?
When would you choose not to pull the card out all the way? This is very
helpful - since many would tell me to go out and buy a book - and I wouldn't
blame you if you did.


I liked the way you phrased this round of questions, by the way. By
making it clear that you understood the lack of absolutes, you helped
me worry less about accidentally sounding absolute. I'm happy to talk
about how I do things and why, but worry sometimes (perhaps more than
necessary in this group of individualists!) about sounding too
absolute when I don't mean to be.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/
http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

"larrylook" writes:

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...
"larrylook" writes:

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...
"larrylook" writes:

If I bounce the sb800 off the ceiling (using TTL mode) will I
generally need a + exposure compensation setting? How is this done?
If I bounce off the ceiling should I bother with the rounded
diffusion dome accessory, or does just bouncing off the ceiling
diffuse the light enough that it's not worth putting the dome on?

No special compensation needed for bounce in TTL mode.

The "diffusion dome" gives you more of a bare-bulb look than a
diffused look. It's somewhat different from ceiling bounce (it
depends on ceiling and wall bounce a lot). Play with it, decide what
you like in different kinds of rooms. There's no "right" and "wrong"
here! This is art. Bouncing off the ceiling will give softer light
than the diffusion dome thingy, in my experience.

When you say bare bulb, do you mean if diff. dome is pointed
right at the subject? So maybe I should bounce off ceiling and
not use dome, since I want diffused light. Maybe no point for me
to put on the d. dome, if I'm bouncing off ceiling. Or should I
use the dome and bounce too. I know there's no 1 answer, but
happy for any advise or thoughts, since I'm a newbie. What you
do yourself may be a good starting point for me.

The diffusion dome thingy is normally used pointed towards the
ceiling. It sends quite a bit of the light forward, backwards, and to
the sides, through the other 4 sides of the thingy. I find it depends
on the room, and perhaps on the type of shots I'm taking. *Mostly* I
choose to bounce off the ceiling, with various amounts of fill from
the little reflector. If you were looking for a diffused look,
that'll probably work better for you than the dome.

Thanks! All if this is so helpful since as you know I need a good
starting point and am happy for any opinions of those more
experienced than me (which is most here). So, interestingly, if I
want a diffused look (which I think I do) I'll probably be avoiding
the diffusion dome ( which seems a bit counterintuitive at first),
and bouncing off the ceiling (without the dome) and using the white
card reflector. Do you see a point in putting on the wide angle
diffuser (small rectangle next to the white card) when doing this?
Or does just the act of bouncing the light off the ceiling diffuse
the light sufficiently?

I think a lot of the trouble is with the concept of "diffusion".
You're probably thinking about diffusion when what you *really* want
is "soft" light. "Hard" light casts sharp-edged shadows. The softer
the edge of the shadow, the softer the light. (There's a continuum
from a point source, perfectly "hard" light, through various degrees
of softness to what you get in a light tent, which might be considered
perfectly "soft" light.)

The thing that controls the hardness of a particular light source for
a particular picture is the size of that light source when viewed from
the point-of-view of the subject. Think about a sunny day vs. a
cloudy day; on a sunny day the primarily light source is that little
sun, and the shadow it casts of you on the ground is fairly
sharp-edged. On a cloudy day, the whole sky full of clouds is the
light source, and you may not be able to find your shadow at all,
except right under your feet. ("Size" of the light source in this
context means angular size; a source covering 1 degree is much smaller
than one covering 10 degrees.)

Simple direct flash is a very small light source. Bouncing off the
ceiling accomplishes two things. One is that it moves the apparent
light source up to the ceiling. The other, and more important one, is
that it makes the apparent light source *much bigger*, and hence
softer.

The "diffusion dome" only makes the light softer if some of the light
diffused out the back, top, and sides bounces off stuff in the
environment and helps illuminate the subject. In a perfectly black
room, the diffusion dome wouldn't make pictures any different from
direct flash, *except* that there'd be a lot *less* light.

I addressed the wide-angle diffuser question in my last response, but
to repeat, mostly not. Using it makes it far too easy to get the
direct beam of the flash covering part or all of the subject, which
interferes with the bounce lighting.

With vertical shots (portrait as opposed to landscape) it's tough to
bounce off the ceiling and use the white card simultaneously.
Aiming for the ceiling with the flash doesn't seem condusive to
aiming the white card reflection towards the subject. Any
suggestions here - besides removing the flash which may be annoying
and there's more to learn with that?

Yes, verticals are a problem. You can either do without fill, or use
your own bounce card. The little built-in card Nikon supplies is just
a fancy form of something press photographers have been doing since
the 70s to my knowledge, and probably longer: attaching a 3x5 card to
their flash head with a rubber band to provide some fill flash when
bouncing.

Or, as you say, take the flash off-camera. Off-camera is a pain with
modern dedicated flashes that take fancy (expensive) connecting
cords. It was much easier when all you needed was a simple generic
sync cord.

If I bounce off the small supplied white card (by sliding it out) I
can no longer use the diffusion dome (it won't go on). So if I want
to try bouncing off the card should I also use the small rectangular
(flat diffuser) to bounce additional light off the ceiling or not
bother to use that? Is + exposure compensation needed when bouncing
off the little white card they supply?

No exposure compensation, no (in ttl mode). The little white card is
a variable fill reflector. When bouncing off the ceiling, especially
close up, you'll tend to get dark shadows under the eyes and chin.
The fill reflector opens those dark areas up and makes them look
better.

I realize there's no one right answer. When you (or anyone) use
white card (fill reflector) do you put flash straight up (0 degrees)
or perhaps use 20 degrees (slightly angled toward subject) (say
ceiling is 9-10 ft high and subject is 4-7 feet away? Do you also
put on the small wide-angle rectangular diffuser (I don't know it's
correct name) - or leave it off - when bouncing with white card? If
photographing people do you advise always using the white card to
avoid racoon eyes? When would you choose diff. dome and bounce off
ceiling without card (over using white bounce card)? Thanks for any
suggestions.

In the 4-7 foot range I'll generally point the flash straight up. At
that close range it also depends a lot on subject height vs. camera
position; if I'm pointing the camera *down*, I'll sometimes turn the
flash around and point it *backwards* a bit, to move the bright area
on the ceiling (the "light source" in terms of lighting angle and
hardness/softness) more away from directly above the subject.

So you really aren't concerned about angle of inc. and angle of reflection
here? since you're aren't aiming the flash so it hits the subject after
bouncing of the ceiling. Previously I though about an imaginary line - that
you aim a spot on ceiling roughly half way between camera and subject.

The ceiling is generally a "flat" reflector (not specular), so I'm not
concerned with the reflected light missing the subject. I'm concerned
with the *size* of the ceiling light spot, and its location, as those
relate to the lighting the subject will receive.

Try this with a flood-light: Shine it at a white wall or ceiling in a
dark room, and then look at the lighting in the rest of the room.
You'll see that it's pretty even throughout, except for a gradual
falloff with distance.

Assuming a level camera, I'll start tilting the flash forward a bit
out beyond 15 feet or so. Especially on the wider settings, it's easy
to get the fringes of the *direct* beam on the subject if you tilt the
flash too far forward, and this rarely works well -- it's hard light
(which you must not have wanted, or you wouldn't be bouncing), and
often it catches only the *top half* of the subject, so you get a lot
of lighting variation across the picture -- this is not good! So I'm
pretty careful about tilting the flash forward.

For flash zoom (and wideangle panel), think in terms of the size spot
of light you'll be making on the ceiling, and then think in terms of
that as an umbrella or light-box size, and try to get it the size you
need for the degree of hardness/softness you want in the lighting.
Even if none of these things are at all automatic for you yet, I hope
the *concept* gets you thinking in the right direction.

I pretty much always use the white card (or regret forgetting it) at
ranges under 15 feet, anyway.

Why do some photographers use a huge white card. Is this really
necessary? When would you choose not to pull the card out all the
way? This is very helpful - since many would tell me to go out and
buy a book - and I wouldn't blame you if you did.

The huge white card you're thinking of is *probably* intended to
replace the ceiling entirely -- it's intended to be a soft light
source still tied to the camera. Of course it's not as big, hence not
as soft, as the big light spot on the ceiling, but it's better than
direct flash especially for close-up work. Or you *might* be seeing
one of the skeletonized cards that lets 80% of the light go up to the
ceiling and directs 20% forward -- a fancier version of the fill card,
that makes the fill light softer too.

The book, by the way, is Hunter & Fuqua, _Light: Science and Magic_
(Focal Press, ISBN 0-240-51796-2). It's a textbook on photographic
lighting, not a how-to or cookbook. Once you've got the basics down,
applications in the real world come fairly easily. (The devil is in
the details, so it's not *that* easy often; but by then you know what
you're working towards and what the tools you have to work with are.)

I'd also like to reiterate what another poster said yesterday --
Digital is cheap! Try things out. If you see two ways to do things,
try both in a test setup and look at how the results differ. Then
you'll have a much better understanding of what the difference really
is.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/