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Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 11th 14, 03:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,429
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

Here's an example of a feature I'm missing in Lightroom.

I use curves extensively, it's the holy grail of exposure editing. If
you're not using it, start using it!

So here it is in Apertu

http://sandman.net/files/aperture_curves.png

On a slightly (deliberately) overexposed image from Gotland. See the
"Range:" popup? It can be set to "extended", and it looks like this:

http://sandman.net/files/aperture_extended.png

It shows a larger spectrum of image data than can be displayed on your
monitor, i.e. a higher dynamic range. This is only populated if you're
shooting with RAW files of course. You then have more bits of image data
than JPG or your display can show. Using this, I can move the qhite point
*up*:

http://sandman.net/files/apterture_extended2.png

And you can instantly see the result. You suddenly have more image data in
the monitor-visible spectrum! Amazing, isn't it? Now, this may have been a
poor image to show this with since we don't have all that much *useful*
data in the upper range either way. But it's super useful for a lot of
bright images to get more data from the file.

Unfortunately, Lightroom doesn't seem to support this. Default it shows you
a poor-mans version of curves:

http://sandman.net/files/lightroom_poorcurves.png

And at first I wondered what the hell this curve was on about, it had these
stupid limits and regions. So you have to click the bottom right icon to
get to the real curves:

http://sandman.net/files/lightroom_curves.png

But, alas, no extended range here (or with the poorer version of curves) so
no way - as far as I can make out - to actually access all that glorious
image data from within Lightroom.

Anyone knows if I've missed something?


--
Sandman[.net]
  #2  
Old August 11th 14, 04:43 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,584
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

On 2014-08-11 14:17:06 +0000, Sandman said:

Here's an example of a feature I'm missing in Lightroom.

I use curves extensively, it's the holy grail of exposure editing. If
you're not using it, start using it!

So here it is in Apertu

http://sandman.net/files/aperture_curves.png

On a slightly (deliberately) overexposed image from Gotland. See the
"Range:" popup? It can be set to "extended", and it looks like this:

http://sandman.net/files/aperture_extended.png

It shows a larger spectrum of image data than can be displayed on your
monitor, i.e. a higher dynamic range. This is only populated if you're
shooting with RAW files of course. You then have more bits of image data
than JPG or your display can show. Using this, I can move the qhite point
*up*:


I am not going to get into a major Aperture vs. Lightroom argument
here, but why on earth would you want to move the white point "up"?
All that is going to do is clip the data on the right.

http://sandman.net/files/apterture_extended2.png

And you can instantly see the result. You suddenly have more image data in
the monitor-visible spectrum! Amazing, isn't it? Now, this may have been a
poor image to show this with since we don't have all that much *useful*
data in the upper range either way. But it's super useful for a lot of
bright images to get more data from the file.


I can see that this might be beneficial in an image with deep shadows
and you might want to artificially stretch the DR, but with the example
you have used all you achieve is clipping. There is no additional image
data visible to me, and I would guess anybody else.

Unfortunately, Lightroom doesn't seem to support this. Default it shows you
a poor-mans version of curves:

http://sandman.net/files/lightroom_poorcurves.png

And at first I wondered what the hell this curve was on about, it had these
stupid limits and regions. So you have to click the bottom right icon to
get to the real curves:

http://sandman.net/files/lightroom_curves.png

But, alas, no extended range here (or with the poorer version of curves) so
no way - as far as I can make out - to actually access all that glorious
image data from within Lightroom.

Anyone knows if I've missed something?


From what I can see you are calling the Lightroom implementation of a
Tone Curves adjustment a "poorer version of curves" because it doesn't
have this extended feature. However, it doesn't really do what you
claim on the right of the histogram where it leads to clipping. It can
help in the shadows and mid-tones, but for the most part there are
other tools which can deal with those issues.
They are two apps with similar goals, but different implementation,
don't expect them to mirror each other in every way. They won't.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

  #3  
Old August 11th 14, 07:29 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,429
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

In article [email protected], Savageduck wrote:

Sandman:
Here's an example of a feature I'm missing in Lightroom.


I use curves extensively, it's the holy grail of exposure editing.
If you're not using it, start using it!


So here it is in Apertu


http://sandman.net/files/aperture_curves.png


On a slightly (deliberately) overexposed image from Gotland. See
the "Range:" popup? It can be set to "extended", and it looks like
this:


http://sandman.net/files/aperture_extended.png


It shows a larger spectrum of image data than can be displayed on
your monitor, i.e. a higher dynamic range. This is only populated
if you're shooting with RAW files of course. You then have more
bits of image data than JPG or your display can show. Using this,
I can move the qhite point *up*:


I am not going to get into a major Aperture vs. Lightroom argument
here, but why on earth would you want to move the white point "up"?
All that is going to do is clip the data on the right.


Uhm, what I meant was to move the white point to the right, i.e. increase
it, to span a greater range, hence the "up". Might have been a bit ambigous
yes, but the screenshots showed what I meant.

Sandman:
http://sandman.net/files/apterture_extended2.png


And you can instantly see the result. You suddenly have more image
data in the monitor-visible spectrum! Amazing, isn't it? Now, this
may have been a poor image to show this with since we don't have
all that much *useful* data in the upper range either way. But
it's super useful for a lot of bright images to get more data from
the file.


I can see that this might be beneficial in an image with deep
shadows and you might want to artificially stretch the DR, but with
the example you have used all you achieve is clipping. There is no
additional image data visible to me, and I would guess anybody else.


Huh? Look again, when moving the whitepoint to the right, I get *more* data
into the visible range, and you see the horizon, which was blocked out in
the earlier image. More data, not blocked. The opposite of blocked.

Sandman:
Unfortunately, Lightroom doesn't seem to support this. Default it
shows you a poor-mans version of curves:


http://sandman.net/files/lightroom_poorcurves.png


And at first I wondered what the hell this curve was on about, it
had these stupid limits and regions. So you have to click the
bottom right icon to get to the real curves:


http://sandman.net/files/lightroom_curves.png


But, alas, no extended range here (or with the poorer version of
curves) so no way - as far as I can make out - to actually access
all that glorious image data from within Lightroom.


Anyone knows if I've missed something?


From what I can see you are calling the Lightroom implementation of
a Tone Curves adjustment a "poorer version of curves" because it
doesn't have this extended feature.


No, limited feature, where it sets limit on how much you can edit the
curve. It's like a "Curve for beginners" with safe limits so you won't
ruin your image too much.

However, it doesn't really do what you claim on the right of the
histogram where it leads to clipping. It can help in the shadows and
mid-tones, but for the most part there are other tools which can deal
with those issues. They are two apps with similar goals, but different
implementation, don't expect them to mirror each other in every way. They
won't.


All I am saying is that Aperture has a way to access image data that is
outside the 8 bit scope of your monitor, like any HDR tool also can.

The Sony A7 has 11 bit color depth information in the raw file, which your
monitor can't show, so compressing that dynamic range down to 8 bit allows
for that, which Aperture supports in its Curbes implementation, but as far
as I can make out, Lightroom has no way for me to access that data.


--
Sandman[.net]
  #4  
Old August 11th 14, 11:46 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,469
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

On 11 Aug 2014 14:17:06 GMT, Sandman wrote:

Here's an example of a feature I'm missing in Lightroom.

I use curves extensively, it's the holy grail of exposure editing. If
you're not using it, start using it!

So here it is in Apertu

http://sandman.net/files/aperture_curves.png

On a slightly (deliberately) overexposed image from Gotland. See the
"Range:" popup? It can be set to "extended", and it looks like this:

http://sandman.net/files/aperture_extended.png

It shows a larger spectrum of image data than can be displayed on your
monitor, i.e. a higher dynamic range. This is only populated if you're
shooting with RAW files of course. You then have more bits of image data
than JPG or your display can show. Using this, I can move the qhite point
*up*:

http://sandman.net/files/apterture_extended2.png

And you can instantly see the result. You suddenly have more image data in
the monitor-visible spectrum! Amazing, isn't it? Now, this may have been a
poor image to show this with since we don't have all that much *useful*
data in the upper range either way. But it's super useful for a lot of
bright images to get more data from the file.

Unfortunately, Lightroom doesn't seem to support this. Default it shows you
a poor-mans version of curves:

http://sandman.net/files/lightroom_poorcurves.png

And at first I wondered what the hell this curve was on about, it had these
stupid limits and regions. So you have to click the bottom right icon to
get to the real curves:

http://sandman.net/files/lightroom_curves.png

But, alas, no extended range here (or with the poorer version of curves) so
no way - as far as I can make out - to actually access all that glorious
image data from within Lightroom.

Anyone knows if I've missed something?


Before I comment, I would like to try another approach. Can you post a
copy of the original in an editable form?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #5  
Old August 12th 14, 12:47 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,429
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

In article , Eric Stevens wrote:

But, alas, no extended range here (or with the poorer version of
curves) so no way - as far as I can make out - to actually access
all that glorious image data from within Lightroom.


Anyone knows if I've missed something?


Before I comment, I would like to try another approach. Can you post
a copy of the original in an editable form?


Certainly.

http://sandman.net/files/DSC01476.ARW


--
Sandman[.net]
  #6  
Old August 12th 14, 02:38 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,584
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

On 2014-08-12 11:47:45 +0000, Sandman said:

In article , Eric Stevens wrote:

But, alas, no extended range here (or with the poorer version of
curves) so no way - as far as I can make out - to actually access
all that glorious image data from within Lightroom.


Anyone knows if I've missed something?


Before I comment, I would like to try another approach. Can you post
a copy of the original in an editable form?


Certainly.

http://sandman.net/files/DSC01476.ARW



After looking at that RAW file I can see the problem came from a need
for a -4 Grad ND filter. Shooting wide open at f/1.8 & ISO 100 didn’t
help. It looks as if you metered on the tree or roof in the center, and
that led to those exposure settings and the blown highlights. If
anything this might have been a case for HDR, or at least some exposure
bracketing to play with. There is no getting away from the serious
clipping.
You were correct there was data further to the right in the histogram,
but it was useless as the clipping had mostly blanketed it.

I tried a rendition and came up with this:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/DSC01476-Edit-1.jpg
--
Regards,

Savageduck

  #7  
Old August 12th 14, 03:15 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,584
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

On 2014-08-12 13:38:07 +0000, Savageduck said:

On 2014-08-12 11:47:45 +0000, Sandman said:

In article , Eric Stevens wrote:

But, alas, no extended range here (or with the poorer version of
curves) so no way - as far as I can make out - to actually access
all that glorious image data from within Lightroom.

Anyone knows if I've missed something?

Before I comment, I would like to try another approach. Can you post
a copy of the original in an editable form?


Certainly.

http://sandman.net/files/DSC01476.ARW



After looking at that RAW file I can see the problem came from a need
for a -4 Grad ND filter. Shooting wide open at f/1.8 & ISO 100 didn’t
help. It looks as if you metered on the tree or roof in the center, and
that led to those exposure settings and the blown highlights. If
anything this might have been a case for HDR, or at least some exposure
bracketing to play with. There is no getting away from the serious
clipping.
You were correct there was data further to the right in the histogram,
but it was useless as the clipping had mostly blanketed it.

I tried a rendition and came up with this:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/DSC01476-Edit-1.jpg


....or perhaps this one;
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/DSC01476-Edit2-1.jpg

--
Regards,

Savageduck

  #8  
Old August 12th 14, 03:21 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,429
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

In article [email protected], Savageduck wrote:

On 2014-08-12 11:47:45 +0000, Sandman said:


Sandman:
But, alas, no extended range here (or with the poorer version
of curves) so no way - as far as I can make out - to actually
access all that glorious image data from within Lightroom.

Anyone knows if I've missed something?

Eric Stevens:
Before I comment, I would like to try another approach. Can you
post a copy of the original in an editable form?


Sandman:
Certainly.


http://sandman.net/files/DSC01476.ARW


After looking at that RAW file I can see the problem came from a
need for a -4 Grad ND filter. Shooting wide open at f/1.8 & ISO 100
didn’t help. It looks as if you metered on the tree or roof in the
center, and that led to those exposure settings and the blown
highlights. If anything this might have been a case for HDR, or at
least some exposure bracketing to play with. There is no getting
away from the serious clipping. You were correct there was data
further to the right in the histogram, but it was useless as the
clipping had mostly blanketed it.


The topic is not this image and what is truly clipped from it or not. The
topic is accessing image data that is outside the 8 bit spectrum of the
Lightroom histogram, which can be done in Aperture.

This was not a thread about how I save this one image, the image is
irrelevant to the topic and was just an example. You're focusing on the
wrong thing.

There is data in that image not represented by the Lightroom histogram. Or
the Aperture histogram. There is a method in Aperture to *access* that data
by shrinking the 11 bit actual histogram to fit a 8 bit histogram.

As far as I can make out, there is no way to do this in Lightroom. Correct?



--
Sandman[.net]
  #9  
Old August 12th 14, 03:45 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Floyd L. Davidson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,138
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

Sandman wrote:
Here's an example of a feature I'm missing in Lightroom.

I use curves extensively, it's the holy grail of exposure editing. If
you're not using it, start using it!


A curves tool does not edit exposure, it changes the
tone mapping. You are only moving points between the
maximum white and the maximum black in relation to each
other.

What you want to adjust, for the purposes stated, are
brightness and contrast. A 'contrast' adjustment changes
the data's range of darkness and brightness. A
'brightness' adjustment moves the range toward one end
or the other of the scale. A curves tool doesn't move
the range nor does it compress or expand it. Curves
moves a portion of the range in one direction or the
other, but cannot go past either end. Areas within the
range are compress and expanded, but not the range.

When done with a RAW converter brightness and contrast
adjustments can be dramatic in effect. If you try it in
an editor with the RGB image produced by the converter
the effect will be significantly reduced, and in
particular if the image has been formatted and saved as
a JPEG.

So here it is in Apertu

http://sandman.net/files/aperture_curves.png

On a slightly (deliberately) overexposed image from Gotland. See the
"Range:" popup? It can be set to "extended", and it looks like this:

http://sandman.net/files/aperture_extended.png

It shows a larger spectrum of image data than can be displayed on your
monitor, i.e. a higher dynamic range. This is only populated if you're
shooting with RAW files of course. You then have more bits of image data
than JPG or your display can show. Using this, I can move the qhite point
*up*:


It is shot directly into the sun! There is no way to
avoid some areas of clipped whites.

When processing the RAW image you can use brightness and
contrast to set the points in the raw sensor data that
become absolute white (255) and absolute black (0) in
the RGB image (whether that is saved as a JPEG or
something else). When editing the RGB image you will
never have access to whatever the raw sensor had that
was whiter or blacker. It's gone at that point.

Other formats will have greater dynamic range than a
JPEG, and at least some of the shadows can be pulled up.

Anyone knows if I've missed something?


A bare bones realization of what each program is doing.
And a misconception of what a curves tool does.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
  #10  
Old August 12th 14, 03:52 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,429
Default Lightroom vs. Apertu Curves

In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Sandman:
Here's an example of a feature I'm missing in Lightroom.


I use curves extensively, it's the holy grail of exposure editing.
If you're not using it, start using it!


A curves tool does not edit exposure


Captain literal strikes again.

What you want to adjust, for the purposes stated, are brightness and
contrast.


Then you didn't understand the purpose stated. No surprise there, Floyd.

It shows a larger spectrum of image data than can be displayed on
your monitor, i.e. a higher dynamic range. This is only populated
if you're shooting with RAW files of course. You then have more
bits of image data than JPG or your display can show. Using this,
I can move the qhite point *up*:


It is shot directly into the sun! There is no way to avoid some
areas of clipped whites.


Good input, if the question was how to avoid data clipping when taking
pictures directly into the sun.

When processing the RAW image you can use brightness and contrast to
set the points in the raw sensor data that become absolute white
(255) and absolute black (0) in the RGB image (whether that is saved
as a JPEG or something else). When editing the RGB image you will
never have access to whatever the raw sensor had that was whiter or
blacker. It's gone at that point.


Captain Obvious strikes as well.

Other formats will have greater dynamic range than a JPEG, and at
least some of the shadows can be pulled up.


You don't say, Floyd? You have any more basic image knowledge to share that
everyone already knows about?

Sandman:
Anyone knows if I've missed something?


A bare bones realization of what each program is doing. And a
misconception of what a curves tool does.


So basically you understood nothing. Again, no surprise there.


--
Sandman[.net]
 




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