Shelf Life for Metol

Anyone know the shelf life for Metol.?
I just got some mush from D76H the other day, and it got me wondering
if a year from the Formulary might be too long. Mixed fresh that day.
I've used it and sworn by it for HP5 sheets for a while now, since
dropping pyro.
Xtol also seems to not shine for HP5. Anyone confer?

"Ken Smith" wrote in message
oups.com...
Anyone know the shelf life for Metol.?
I just got some mush from D76H the other day, and it got me wondering
if a year from the Formulary might be too long. Mixed fresh that day.

My Kodak Elon lasted at least 15 years, maybe 20 before it went bad.

Natural Light Black and White Photography
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze76ane/
-George-

seog
Dec 21, 9:00 am show options

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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:00:46 GMT
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Subject: Shelf Life for Metol
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"Ken Smith" wrote in message


oups.com...


Anyone know the shelf life for Metol.?
I just got some mush from D76H the other day, and it got me wondering
if a year from the Formulary might be too long. Mixed fresh that day.


My Kodak Elon lasted at least 15 years, maybe 20 before it went bad.

Natural Light Black and White Photography
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze76ane/-George-


Go figure. I put some packaged D-76 against my homebrew and found
better contrast and acutance in the packaged form. My homebrew is
D-76H, which is essentially D-23 with less metol, but I don't recall
this level of softness before, which really stands out with a grain
focuser. I use the developer 1:1 . I know the camera is not at fault
because I shot some new tests and got the same result. Lower contrast
and less acutance with homebrew. Strange.

"Ken Smith" wrote in message
oups.com...
seog
Dec 21, 9:00 am show options

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Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:00:46 GMT
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Subject: Shelf Life for Metol
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"Ken Smith" wrote in message


oups.com...


Anyone know the shelf life for Metol.?
I just got some mush from D76H the other day, and it got
me wondering
if a year from the Formulary might be too long. Mixed
fresh that day.


My Kodak Elon lasted at least 15 years, maybe 20 before it
went bad.

Natural Light Black and White Photography
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze76ane/-George-


Go figure. I put some packaged D-76 against my homebrew
and found
better contrast and acutance in the packaged form. My
homebrew is
D-76H, which is essentially D-23 with less metol, but I
don't recall
this level of softness before, which really stands out
with a grain
focuser. I use the developer 1:1 . I know the camera is
not at fault
because I shot some new tests and got the same result.
Lower contrast
and less acutance with homebrew. Strange.

D-76H is D-76 with no Hydroquinone and slightly increased
Metol, it does have Borax in it as the accelerator. D-23
does not have Borax, it is Metol and Sulfite only with the
amount of Metol increased to 7.5 grams.
D-76 without Hydroquinone performs much like D-76 but has
less capacity because it does not have the regeneration
effect that Metol and Hydroquinone have on each other.
Packaged D-76 is similar to published formula D-76d,
which is buffered to prevent a slow increase in activity
characteristic of the original D-76 and which is due to a
slow reaction between the hydroquinone and the sulfite which
produces a small amount of Sodium Hydroxide.
The buffered version of the developer was announced in a
paper [1] by Carlton and Crabtree, of Kodak Labs, published
in 1929. This paper also showed about 30 variations of D-76
including one without the Hydroquinone and showed the effect
of leaving it out.
In the same journal two researchers from Dupont published
[2] another variation without Hydroquinone shown below. This
might be worth experimenting with.
The formula you are using, without the Borax, will be
significantly less active than D-76, hense the lower
contrast.

Dupont Negative Developer

Water 750.0 ml
Metol 2.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 75.0 grams
Borax, granulated 5.0 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

This formula can also be used diluted 1:1

Another veriation of D-76 is the Kodak D-96, intended for
machine processing of motion picture film. The Potassium
bromide can probably be left out.

Kodak D-96
Water 750.0 ml
Metol 1.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite 75.0 grams
Hydroquinone 1.5 grams
Potassium bromide 0.4 grams
Borax, granular decahydrate 4.5 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

The optimum amount of Sulfite for developers of this type
seems to be about 75 grams per liter for best combination of
speed and grain.

1, "Some Properties of Fine-Grain Developers for Motion
Picture Film" H.C.Carlton and J.I.Crabtree, _Transactions of
the Society of Motion Picture Engineers_ Vol. XIII, No.38,
1929 p406.
2, "Borax Developer Characteristics" H.W.Moyse and
D.R.White, loc sit, p.445



--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

seog
Dec 21, 9:00 am show options

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From: "seog" - Find messages by this
author
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:00:46 GMT
Local: Wed, Dec 21 2005 9:00 am
Subject: Shelf Life for Metol
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual
Message | Show
original | Report Abuse


"Ken Smith" wrote in message


oups.com...


Anyone know the shelf life for Metol.?
I just got some mush from D76H the other day, and it got
me wondering
if a year from the Formulary might be too long. Mixed
fresh that day.


My Kodak Elon lasted at least 15 years, maybe 20 before it
went bad.


Natural Light Black and White Photography
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze76ane/-George-


Go figure. I put some packaged D-76 against my homebrew
and found
better contrast and acutance in the packaged form. My
homebrew is
D-76H, which is essentially D-23 with less metol, but I
don't recall
this level of softness before, which really stands out
with a grain
focuser. I use the developer 1:1 . I know the camera is
not at fault
because I shot some new tests and got the same result.
Lower contrast
and less acutance with homebrew. Strange.



D-76H is D-76 with no Hydroquinone and slightly increased
Metol, it does have Borax in it as the accelerator. D-23
does not have Borax, it is Metol and Sulfite only with the
amount of Metol increased to 7.5 grams.
D-76 without Hydroquinone performs much like D-76 but has
less capacity because it does not have the regeneration
effect that Metol and Hydroquinone have on each other.
Packaged D-76 is similar to published formula D-76d,
which is buffered to prevent a slow increase in activity
characteristic of the original D-76 and which is due to a
slow reaction between the hydroquinone and the sulfite which
produces a small amount of Sodium Hydroxide.
The buffered version of the developer was announced in a
paper [1] by Carlton and Crabtree, of Kodak Labs, published
in 1929. This paper also showed about 30 variations of D-76
including one without the Hydroquinone and showed the effect
of leaving it out.
In the same journal two researchers from Dupont published
[2] another variation without Hydroquinone shown below. This
might be worth experimenting with.
The formula you are using, without the Borax, will be
significantly less active than D-76, hense the lower
contrast.

Dupont Negative Developer


Water 750.0 ml
Metol 2.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 75.0 grams
Borax, granulated 5.0 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter


This formula can also be used diluted 1:1


Another veriation of D-76 is the Kodak D-96, intended for
machine processing of motion picture film. The Potassium
bromide can probably be left out.


Kodak D-96
Water 750.0 ml
Metol 1.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite 75.0 grams
Hydroquinone 1.5 grams
Potassium bromide 0.4 grams
Borax, granular decahydrate 4.5 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter


The optimum amount of Sulfite for developers of this type
seems to be about 75 grams per liter for best combination of
speed and grain.


1, "Some Properties of Fine-Grain Developers for Motion
Picture Film" H.C.Carlton and J.I.Crabtree, _Transactions of
the Society of Motion Picture Engineers_ Vol. XIII, No.38,
1929 p406.
2, "Borax Developer Characteristics" H.W.Moyse and
D.R.White, loc sit, p.445


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA


Thank You Mr. Knoppow, always a pleasure. Your posts fill my Word file
to the brim.

I'm curious why D76H uses less metol than D23? What is acheived by
decreasing the metol?

Also, my experiments with packaged D76 vs. D76H showed me that I needed
a whopping three minutes more for similar contrast from the D76H to
match the package, when aimimg for normal development.

The acutance, I couldn't really say. I think my seeing no snap with a
grain focuser was probably only a contrast issue, although there truely
was a lack of edge to anything. I know D76H ( any version really ) is
fully sound and capable of crisp negatives, so I'll have to search
further for answers to why things went soft.
It was not at the camera.

Richard Knoppow wrote:

D-76H is D-76 with no Hydroquinone and slightly increased
Metol. It does have Borax in it as the accelerator. D-23 does
not have Borax, it is Metol and Sulfite only with the amount
of Metol increased to 7.5 grams.


"It does have Borax in it as the accelerator"
Borax is in no way an accelerator in ANY D-76. Borax is
a mild alkali and has a ph easily less than sulfite. If there
were 100 grams of borax and 2 grams of sulfite in D-76
then borax would be the accelerator.
You are not the only one by any means that refers to
borax as an accelerator, and call it that even when in the
presence of a preponderante amount of some other chemical
even more alkaline. I've been studying Mr. Anneman's patent
for XR-1. He mentiones a 1/2 gram of borax as being the
accelerator in a liter of developer containing
30 grams of sulfite.
D-76H, without hydroquinone, has no reason for borax.
There is no buffering against ph rise to be done. I'd call it
D-23 dilution 1:2. Dan

wrote:
Richard Knoppow wrote:

D-76H is D-76 with no Hydroquinone and slightly increased
Metol. It does have Borax in it as the accelerator. D-23 does
not have Borax, it is Metol and Sulfite only with the amount
of Metol increased to 7.5 grams.



"It does have Borax in it as the accelerator"
Borax is in no way an accelerator in ANY D-76. Borax is
a mild alkali and has a ph easily less than sulfite.

Borax in water gives a pH of 9.2.
I could not find the pH of Na2SO3 in water, so I mixed up a little bit and
tested it with some pH paper and it comes in between about 8 to 9. I could
not read that accurately enough to say which is more basic, but they are
pretty close.

I am not sure if it is really proper to call anything D-76 that does not
have both metol and hydroquinone in it, and some sulphite and an accelerator
(either borax, or boric acid and sodiim metaborate), but YMMV.

If there
were 100 grams of borax and 2 grams of sulfite in D-76
then borax would be the accelerator.
You are not the only one by any means that refers to
borax as an accelerator, and call it that even when in the
presence of a preponderante amount of some other chemical
even more alkaline. I've been studying Mr. Anneman's patent
for XR-1. He mentiones a 1/2 gram of borax as being the
accelerator in a liter of developer containing
30 grams of sulfite.
D-76H, without hydroquinone, has no reason for borax.
There is no buffering against ph rise to be done. I'd call it
D-23 dilution 1:2. Dan



--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
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Jean-David Beyer wrote:

Borax in water gives a pH of 9.2.
I could not find the pH of Na2SO3 in water, so I mixed up a
little bit and tested it with some pH paper and it comes in
between about 8 to 9. I could not read that accurately
enough to say which is more basic,


Your value of 9.2 for borax does agree with values I've
read. Your values for sulfite are very low. I've not read
of any value less than 9.5. The range from one
major supplier is from 9.5 to 10.5.

Not that I'm conciding for one instant sulfite's ph being
higher than that of borax's but what of that 1:49 ratio
borax to sulfite? Were it lye for that matter. Dan

wrote:
Jean-David Beyer wrote:

Borax in water gives a pH of 9.2.
I could not find the pH of Na2SO3 in water, so I mixed up a
little bit and tested it with some pH paper and it comes in
between about 8 to 9. I could not read that accurately
enough to say which is more basic,


Your value of 9.2 for borax does agree with values I've
read. Your values for sulfite are very low. I've not read
of any value less than 9.5. The range from one
major supplier is from 9.5 to 10.5.

Not that I'm conciding for one instant sulfite's ph being
higher than that of borax's but what of that 1:49 ratio
borax to sulfite? Were it lye for that matter. Dan

Do either of you gents have any idea why there is so much more metol in
D23 than D76H, or any general statement about the action of metol? What
is the metol doing exactly, if its the sulfite that reduces the silver
halides? And yes, I'm out of my depth, so any basic comment would be of
interest.

Ken Smith wrote:
wrote:

Jean-David Beyer wrote:

Borax in water gives a pH of 9.2.
I could not find the pH of Na2SO3 in water, so I mixed up a
little bit and tested it with some pH paper and it comes in
between about 8 to 9. I could not read that accurately
enough to say which is more basic,

I found another table in L.P.Clerc, ¶589.

Buffer Mixture pH
Sodium sulphite - sodium metabisulphite 6.5 to 8.0
Boric Acid - borax 6.8 to 9.2
Sodium Carbonate - sodium bicarbonate 9.0 to 11.0
Borax - sodium hydroxide 9.2 to 11.0
Sodium carbonate - sodium hydroxide 10.5 to 12.0
Disodium hydrogen phosphate - sodium hydroxide 11.0 to 12.0
Trisodium phosphate - sodium hydroxide 12.0 to 13.0
Sodium hydroxide above 12.0

Your value of 9.2 for borax does agree with values I've
read. Your values for sulfite are very low. I've not read
of any value less than 9.5. The range from one
major supplier is from 9.5 to 10.5.

Not that I'm conciding for one instant sulfite's ph being
higher than that of borax's but what of that 1:49 ratio
borax to sulfite? Were it lye for that matter. Dan


Do either of you gents have any idea why there is so much more metol in
D23 than D76H, or any general statement about the action of metol? What
is the metol doing exactly, if its the sulfite that reduces the silver
halides? And yes, I'm out of my depth, so any basic comment would be of
interest.

No! No! The sulphite does not reduce the halides to silver. It may dissolve
a bit of the silver grains, but that is about it.

In D-23, the metol is 7.5 grams/litre and the sulphite is 100 grams/litre.

In D-76, the metol is 2.0 grams/litre and the sulphite is 100 grams/litre,
but there is also 5 grams/litre of hydroquinone and 2 grams/litre of borax.

In D-76d, the metol is 2 grams/litre and the sulphite is 100 grams/litre,
and there is also 5 grams/litre of hydroquinone, but the accelerator is 8
grams/litre of borax and 8 grams/litre of boric acid. The borax-boric-acid
mixture is a better buffer than straight borax.

In DK-76, the metol is 2.0 grams/litre and the sulphite is 100 grams/litre
and 5 grams/litre of hydroquinone, and 2 grams/litre of sodium metaborate.

I do not know the formula for D76h

If you want an esoteric developer to amaze your friends, be the first on
your block to try this one:

Titanium trichloride (20% solution) 75ml
EDTA (tetra sodium salt) 100gram
Potassium bromide 4gram
water to 1000ml
Hydrochloric acid to pH 4.0

No metol, no phenidone, no hydroquinone, no sulphite, no base at all; it is
a somewhat acid solution.

Try developing for 5 minutes at 20°C. This is not a joke.

Now as to why there is so much more metol in D-23, my guess is that it is
there for longer, more stable, life. Without the synergy of the metol and
hydroquinone together, where one tends to regenerate the other, you need
more of the reducing agent. But as I said, this is just my guess.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 22:25:00 up 26 days, 8:56, 5 users, load average: 4.21, 4.12, 4.04