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Report: Film still available



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 19th 09, 10:19 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Colin.D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 217
Default Report: Film still available

Ric Trexell wrote:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
This report is likely to only be of interest to those still shooting
film (i.e., what this newsgroup is *supposed* to be about).

Being out of slow-speed color print film, went to Target[1] yesterday
with hopes that they'd still have film.

************************************************** ************************
Digital has some problems that I'm seeing already. One, while we who are
discussing it are using computers, some people don't like computers or
printing out pictures with a printer. They may only take a few rolls per
year and they will just give up on photography or get a disposable film
camera.


I rather think they will just get a digi p&s, and take the card in for
printing, just the same as if it were film. The kids these days clamor
to see the picture on the lcd, and it throws them when there is no
viewing on a film camera.

As has been mentioned, storage is still not something that people
do. Many photos are taken with cell phones but are not preserved on a CD.
Ask people about archival CD's and they ask, What's that? I remember many
times in the pre-digital days when a woman at work would bring in a whole
bunch of photos of her grandkids to pass around.


Yes, but what did she do with the negatives? Most people junk the negs
when they have the prints, so archiving the images off the card wouldn't
interest them, specially when Kodak proclaim you don't need the negs,
just bring us the print to copy.

You don't see that any
more. Yes, they show you one picture on their cell phone that is the size
of a postage stamp and that is it. The fad will die out someday and people
will return to film. Ric.


Cellphones cameras may - should? - die out, but that cannot be
extrapolated to include digital cameras.

I used my film camera, an EOS 10, when I was in Hong Kong in 1993, and
took hundreds of shots on negative film. The prints I got are pretty
good still, but I have been thinking of making a sound-slide show from
the negs, and started to scan them on my Canon 9950F, a high-end scanner.

The scans are nowhere near as good as the prints. They show crossed
color, i.e. green highlights and purple shadows. Clearly the film is
not lasting too well after 15 years in the plastic sleeves and stored in
the top of a wardrobe - a dry one at that. About the only film that
lasts is Kodachrome, which is/was no good if you want prints.

Granted, it can be easy to lose digital images, but diligent care and
backup routines can greatly reduce the chances of loss, and as long as
they exist the color will remain just as taken, unlike film. I know
many people have stated that they have old negatives stored for umpteen
years and they are perfect - until they come to scan or reprint them and
they see what's happened to the dyes. Sub-optimal processing has a lot
to do with how well negatives keep, and that's a completely unknown
parameter.

Kodak's term for dyes is 'fugitive'. What does that tell you about
long-term storage?

The short answer is, digital storage with sensible backups stored at
multiple sites using the current technology of the time will give a
digital image a theoretically infinite lifetime. Can you say that about
negatives?


Colin D.

  #22  
Old February 19th 09, 11:46 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Noons
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,245
Default Report: Film still available

Bill Graham wrote,on my timestamp of 19/02/2009 9:40 AM:


This may all be true, but when the only way to get it is to purchase it
by mail order from specialty shops at some ridiculous elevated price,


Interestingly enough, mail order specialty shops are exactly and precisely the
CHEAPEST way of getting film right now and have been for years, and getting
cheaper by the minute.

But nothing like spreading FUD, eh?


But this convenience will be nullified when there is no more film
available anywhere in town, and I have to order it from some weird
collector somewhere.


There is no such thing as film collectors, there will never be.
  #23  
Old February 19th 09, 03:34 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 450
Default Report: Film still available

Noons wrote:
Bill Graham wrote,on my timestamp of 19/02/2009 9:40 AM:


There is no such thing as film collectors, there will never be.


Yes, there are. There are a few people that collect old fim in it's
original package. Often they collect other things, like instruction books,
etc and many also collect cameras. They display the camera with the film that
would have been available when the camera was sold.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
  #24  
Old February 19th 09, 10:15 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default Report: Film still available

Ric Trexell wrote:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
This report is likely to only be of interest to those still shooting
film (i.e., what this newsgroup is *supposed* to be about).

Being out of slow-speed color print film, went to Target[1] yesterday
with hopes that they'd still have film.

************************************************** ************************
Digital has some problems that I'm seeing already. One, while we who are
discussing it are using computers, some people don't like computers or
printing out pictures with a printer.


I gave my 6 Mpix DSLR to my SO. She shot a couple dozen phots while at
a retreat up north. Now she has no idea what to do with them. "Where
to keep", "how to edit for printing" etc.

Will be a haul of sorts...

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.
  #25  
Old February 19th 09, 10:16 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default Report: Film still available

Beefy LaSleep wrote:
On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:15:39 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote:


And a bit pricey. Not to mention rude, arrogant and service adverse.

Last time I went to look for Velvia at San Jose Camera & Video (I
dunno, they're a usually well stocked store, but often rather rude in
there!

Must have gotten inspiration from Keeble & Shuchat.

I have to say, however, that K&S' equipment rental business (other side
of the street) is very professional, helpful and polite.


With that in mind, and as I say I often get around the Bay mostly from
Palo Alto-Hayward, south to Monterey-Salinas, Santa Cruz, and all of
Silicon Valley in general. What's your recommendation for a store with
the kinds of films like Velvia, along with personnel who are kind
enough to thank you for your business??


No idea, I live far away... - but went to K&S on a recommendation from
several people on these NG's while in the area last summer. They also
suggested other stores. See Paul Furman's posts.

I have nothing against K&S, I would just hope that they remember where
there bread is buttered and begin to respect that. I wrote them an
e-mail on the subject. No reply. Go figure.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.
  #26  
Old February 19th 09, 10:37 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Bill Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,294
Default Report: Film still available


"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in message
...
Noons wrote:
Bill Graham wrote,on my timestamp of 19/02/2009 9:40 AM:


There is no such thing as film collectors, there will never be.


Yes, there are. There are a few people that collect old fim in it's
original package. Often they collect other things, like instruction books,
etc and many also collect cameras. They display the camera with the film
that
would have been available when the camera was sold.

Geoff.
--

There are also people who buy it and freeze it for future use when it will
(presumably) no longer be available.....I suspect that cosmic radiation will
cause it to deteriorate in spite of their freezers, however. Perhaps a
lead-lined freezer would work......

  #27  
Old February 19th 09, 10:46 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Bill Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,294
Default Report: Film still available


"Ric Trexell" wrote in message
net...

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
This report is likely to only be of interest to those still shooting
film (i.e., what this newsgroup is *supposed* to be about).

Being out of slow-speed color print film, went to Target[1] yesterday
with hopes that they'd still have film.

************************************************** ************************
Digital has some problems that I'm seeing already. One, while we who are
discussing it are using computers, some people don't like computers or
printing out pictures with a printer. They may only take a few rolls per
year and they will just give up on photography or get a disposable film
camera. As has been mentioned, storage is still not something that people
do. Many photos are taken with cell phones but are not preserved on a CD.
Ask people about archival CD's and they ask, What's that? I remember many
times in the pre-digital days when a woman at work would bring in a whole
bunch of photos of her grandkids to pass around. You don't see that any
more. Yes, they show you one picture on their cell phone that is the size
of a postage stamp and that is it. The fad will die out someday and
people
will return to film. Ric.


You can display them to your friends on laptops....That's what a few of my
friends do. With today's multi-gigabyte hard drives, you can hold a hell of
a lot of photos on a lap top. I know musicians who also use them to hold
their music in PDF format.....They can put literally thousands of songs
(which only use 20 or 30 kilobytes each) on a laptop, and carry it to the
gig and put it on their music stand. This also gives them the ability to
play in the dark, since the laptop carries it's own light, so to speak. A
lot of stages are poorly lit.

  #28  
Old February 19th 09, 10:58 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Bill Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,294
Default Report: Film still available


"Colin.D" wrote in message
...
Ric Trexell wrote:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
This report is likely to only be of interest to those still shooting
film (i.e., what this newsgroup is *supposed* to be about).

Being out of slow-speed color print film, went to Target[1] yesterday
with hopes that they'd still have film.

************************************************** ************************
Digital has some problems that I'm seeing already. One, while we who are
discussing it are using computers, some people don't like computers or
printing out pictures with a printer. They may only take a few rolls per
year and they will just give up on photography or get a disposable film
camera.


I rather think they will just get a digi p&s, and take the card in for
printing, just the same as if it were film. The kids these days clamor to
see the picture on the lcd, and it throws them when there is no viewing on
a film camera.

As has been mentioned, storage is still not something that people
do. Many photos are taken with cell phones but are not preserved on a
CD.
Ask people about archival CD's and they ask, What's that? I remember
many
times in the pre-digital days when a woman at work would bring in a whole
bunch of photos of her grandkids to pass around.


Yes, but what did she do with the negatives? Most people junk the negs
when they have the prints, so archiving the images off the card wouldn't
interest them, specially when Kodak proclaim you don't need the negs, just
bring us the print to copy.

You don't see that any
more. Yes, they show you one picture on their cell phone that is the
size
of a postage stamp and that is it. The fad will die out someday and
people
will return to film. Ric.


Cellphones cameras may - should? - die out, but that cannot be
extrapolated to include digital cameras.

I used my film camera, an EOS 10, when I was in Hong Kong in 1993, and
took hundreds of shots on negative film. The prints I got are pretty good
still, but I have been thinking of making a sound-slide show from the
negs, and started to scan them on my Canon 9950F, a high-end scanner.

The scans are nowhere near as good as the prints. They show crossed
color, i.e. green highlights and purple shadows. Clearly the film is not
lasting too well after 15 years in the plastic sleeves and stored in the
top of a wardrobe - a dry one at that. About the only film that lasts is
Kodachrome, which is/was no good if you want prints.

Granted, it can be easy to lose digital images, but diligent care and
backup routines can greatly reduce the chances of loss, and as long as
they exist the color will remain just as taken, unlike film. I know many
people have stated that they have old negatives stored for umpteen years
and they are perfect - until they come to scan or reprint them and they
see what's happened to the dyes. Sub-optimal processing has a lot to do
with how well negatives keep, and that's a completely unknown parameter.

Kodak's term for dyes is 'fugitive'. What does that tell you about
long-term storage?

The short answer is, digital storage with sensible backups stored at
multiple sites using the current technology of the time will give a
digital image a theoretically infinite lifetime. Can you say that about
negatives?

My scans of old slides are pretty good.....Especially the Kodachromes....I
have some that are over 50 years old. And, Photoshop is capable of restoring
many that are faded and moldy due to bad storage and other things. I think
the thing for me to do is to do both....Scan the slides into some digital
storage device, and then store the film in as clean and dry a place as
possible. I recently bought a Western Digital external 350 gigabyte hard
drive for $70....And I have seen drives larger than 500 gigs on the internet
for sale for less than $100.....Mostly refurbished. With prices like this,
losing your digital data is your own fault!

  #29  
Old February 21st 09, 03:11 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Ric Trexell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default Report: Film still available

I never said that digital didn't have some great things going for it, the
reason I see it as a fad is that you first have to look at it as the
majority see it. Those of us that are into photography and computers have
lost the sense of how difficult these are for some people. The majority of
photos are not taken by the person with a $300 SLR or the computer whiz kid.
The majority I would say are the mothers that take pictures of little Bobby
on his first birthday and when he puts on his little league baseball cap at
the age of eight. Maybe gramma takes a few too. They may shoot 30-40
pictures and have dad print out the best two or three. Maybe he will burn
them to a CD. Chances are they will never be put on archival quality CD's
and eventually when the HD crashes or the CD becomes unreadable they will
long for the days when they could just get pictures from the drug store and
throw out those useless negatives, but keep the pictures in a cardboard box.
I'm already hearing of friends that have unreadable CD's. Now those of you
that have $3000 Nikon's and buy top grade CD's will have them for years,
maybe decades. If you don't think what I say is true, ask your friends how
they preserve their digital pictures. You will get the 'you cans', as in
you can put them on a CD. Then ask them if that is what they do and do they
use archival CD's? I think you will soon agree with me that the vast
majority of digital pictures will be gone for good in the next decade. Ric.


  #30  
Old February 21st 09, 03:15 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
David Nebenzahl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,353
Default Report: Film still available

On 2/20/2009 6:11 PM Ric Trexell spake thus:

I think you will soon agree with me that the vast majority of digital
pictures will be gone for good in the next decade.


To which I can only say: [wait for it] ... Good riddance!


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair
 




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