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Differences in sensor "quality"



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 13th 06, 05:32 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Default Differences in sensor "quality"

Back in the day, photographers would extol (or decry) the virtues (or vices)
of the various films on the market. In reading the posts here, I haven't
noticed any discussion about the subjective quality of the various sensors
in the various cameras out there. I suppose I'm really thinking about color
rendition.

Before digital, what film you chose was important and could be quite the
topic of discussion. Now it seems that people are more concerned with card
compatibilitiy than color quality. In a recent thread several posters said
they wanted to use the same card in different cameras - but I've not noticed
discussion about which sensor gives a more pleasing rendition. I can still
remember the time when you carried an extra camera JUST to have a different
film with you!

Has this been discussed and I've just missed it? or does modern electronic
white-balancing mean that color rendition issues are no longer a concern?

Steve


  #2  
Old March 13th 06, 06:39 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Default Differences in sensor "quality"

mrsgator88 wrote:

Back in the day, photographers would extol (or decry) the virtues (or
vices)
of the various films on the market. In reading the posts here, I haven't
noticed any discussion about the subjective quality of the various sensors
in the various cameras out there.


It's because the people that frequent this group mainly focus on high ISO
noise.

I suppose I'm really thinking about
color rendition.


Exactly why I chose the camera I did. No, the color doesn't perfectly match
a test chart but I love the color saturation I get from this camera.


Before digital, what film you chose was important and could be quite the
topic of discussion. Now it seems that people are more concerned with
card
compatibilitiy than color quality.


Actually it's noise performance that has taken center stage.



Has this been discussed and I've just missed it? or does modern
electronic white-balancing mean that color rendition issues are no longer
a concern?


Not at all, it's just ignored because it's too subjective. It's easy to
measure noise at 1600ISO and chose a camera based on that.
--

Stacey
  #3  
Old March 13th 06, 07:08 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Default Differences in sensor "quality"

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 04:32:32 GMT, "mrsgator88"
wrote:

Back in the day, photographers would extol (or decry) the virtues (or vices)
of the various films on the market. In reading the posts here, I haven't
noticed any discussion about the subjective quality of the various sensors
in the various cameras out there. I suppose I'm really thinking about color
rendition.

Before digital, what film you chose was important and could be quite the
topic of discussion. Now it seems that people are more concerned with card
compatibilitiy than color quality. In a recent thread several posters said
they wanted to use the same card in different cameras - but I've not noticed
discussion about which sensor gives a more pleasing rendition. I can still
remember the time when you carried an extra camera JUST to have a different
film with you!

Has this been discussed and I've just missed it? or does modern electronic
white-balancing mean that color rendition issues are no longer a concern?

Steve


There is so much going on *after* the sensor does its job that the
major differences are caused by the camera model (and its firmware)
than by the sensors themselves.
The only real differences, anyway, are CCD vs CMOS, and even there,
any differences are overshadowed by the in-camera processing.
IMO, of course.
Maybe there *is* a controversy here.

--
Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"
  #4  
Old March 13th 06, 01:10 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Default Differences in sensor "quality"

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 04:32:32 GMT, "mrsgator88"
wrote:

Back in the day, photographers would extol (or decry) the virtues (or vices)
of the various films on the market. In reading the posts here, I haven't
noticed any discussion about the subjective quality of the various sensors
in the various cameras out there. I suppose I'm really thinking about color
rendition.

Before digital, what film you chose was important and could be quite the
topic of discussion. Now it seems that people are more concerned with card
compatibilitiy than color quality. In a recent thread several posters said
they wanted to use the same card in different cameras - but I've not noticed
discussion about which sensor gives a more pleasing rendition. I can still
remember the time when you carried an extra camera JUST to have a different
film with you!

Has this been discussed and I've just missed it? or does modern electronic
white-balancing mean that color rendition issues are no longer a concern?

Steve

All the sensor and A/D section of the camera does is count the number
of photoelectrons captured--a more or less accurate measure of the
tones in the scene photographed-- and create a black and white raw
image. It's not at all like fiilm where there are real physical and
chemical differences between the various brands.

If the only thing you use is the jpgs straight out of the camera, the
color quality is determined by the firmware in the camera and the
characterristics of whatever printer you use. And if you use a higher
end photoeditor correctly you can set you color quality just about any
way you like.

jpc
  #5  
Old March 13th 06, 03:35 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Default Differences in sensor "quality"

mrsgator88 wrote:


Has this been discussed and I've just missed it? or does modern electronic
white-balancing mean that color rendition issues are no longer a concern?

Steve



No, it is just as much an issue as it ever was. White balance only sets
hue- there is still the saturation issue. And the problems in hue with
films were not nearly the issue that saturation was- for instance,
Kodachrome vs Ektachrome.

The difference is that now the home enthusiast can do color correction.
While the amateur photographer could adjust contrast when working with
black and white, those few amateurs working in color darkrooms didn't
have much to work with on color editing, save using different films as
you mention.

With the proper color management systems today, a home digital darkroom
can actually do a fairly good job of maintaining accurate color. That
being said, I still haven't done such a setup, though as I see monitor
calibration devices dropping in price, I am about ready to.
  #6  
Old March 13th 06, 05:18 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Default Differences in sensor "quality"

mrsgator88 wrote:

Back in the day, photographers would extol (or decry) the virtues (or vices)
of the various films on the market. In reading the posts here, I haven't
noticed any discussion about the subjective quality of the various sensors


Oh but there are.
You only have to look at the Foveon vs Bayer religious wars here ;-)

And in addition there are a several of flavours of Bayer mask filter

Classical additive RG,GB
Custom additive RG,EB (SonY)
(where E is a different shade of green/cyan they call emerald)

Classical subtractive CM,YG (some video sensors)

And lastly Fuji's interpolated sensor installed with pixels running
diagonally and interpolated.

The distinction is more that very few amateur photographers know which
type of sensor mask is included in their camera. And so many other
factors affect image quality that it is largely irrelevant.

Regards,
Martin Brown
  #7  
Old March 13th 06, 05:39 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Default Differences in sensor "quality"

Stacey wrote:

mrsgator88 wrote:

Back in the day, photographers would extol (or decry) the virtues (or
vices)
of the various films on the market. In reading the posts here, I haven't
noticed any discussion about the subjective quality of the various sensors
in the various cameras out there.


It's because the people that frequent this group mainly focus on high ISO
noise.

So glad you can straighten out "the people".

We monolithic goose-stepping incantors of all things high ISO......

--
John McWilliams
  #8  
Old March 13th 06, 07:21 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Default Differences in sensor "quality"

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 08:39:52 -0800, John McWilliams
wrote:

Stacey wrote:

mrsgator88 wrote:

Back in the day, photographers would extol (or decry) the virtues (or
vices)
of the various films on the market. In reading the posts here, I haven't
noticed any discussion about the subjective quality of the various sensors
in the various cameras out there.


It's because the people that frequent this group mainly focus on high ISO
noise.

So glad you can straighten out "the people".

We monolithic goose-stepping incantors of all things high ISO......


And Canon.
Don't forget Canon.

--
Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"
  #9  
Old March 13th 06, 08:03 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Default Differences in sensor "quality"

Well, when shooting in RAW, everything is post process. For example. in 20
seconds you can give an image all the colour saturation you want, and more.

Whether the colours are accurate when you print them, well that is a
different story because it depends on how well your monitor is set up.


"mrsgator88" wrote in message
. com...
Back in the day, photographers would extol (or decry) the virtues (or

vices)
of the various films on the market. In reading the posts here, I haven't
noticed any discussion about the subjective quality of the various sensors
in the various cameras out there. I suppose I'm really thinking about

color
rendition.

Before digital, what film you chose was important and could be quite the
topic of discussion. Now it seems that people are more concerned with

card
compatibilitiy than color quality. In a recent thread several posters

said
they wanted to use the same card in different cameras - but I've not

noticed
discussion about which sensor gives a more pleasing rendition. I can

still
remember the time when you carried an extra camera JUST to have a

different
film with you!

Has this been discussed and I've just missed it? or does modern

electronic
white-balancing mean that color rendition issues are no longer a concern?

Steve




  #10  
Old March 13th 06, 09:31 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Posts: n/a
Default Differences in sensor "quality"


"Martin Brown" schreef in bericht
...
mrsgator88 wrote:

Back in the day, photographers would extol (or decry) the virtues (or
vices) of the various films on the market. In reading the posts here, I
haven't noticed any discussion about the subjective quality of the
various sensors


Oh but there are.
You only have to look at the Foveon vs Bayer religious wars here ;-)

Foveon the sensors were stacked and something in between to stop
the colors going to the other layers. How I have no clue.
But Foveon didn't make it.



And in addition there are a several of flavours of Bayer mask filter

Classical additive RG,GB

Most camera's are now RG, GB so that is probably the best ???
There probably are only slight differences between R- G- B-

Custom additive RG,EB (SonY) (where E is a different shade of green/cyan
they call emerald)

But this has not catched on either.


Classical subtractive CM,YG (some video sensors)

There were some picture camera's which had this setting, I would
think that with CMYG, there would be more sensitivity left for the
sensor. (Or more photon's) But this didn't catch on either.
(If my memory is correct the Canon G1 had this configuration.).


And lastly Fuji's interpolated sensor installed with pixels running
diagonally and interpolated.

Holding your camera turned in a 45 degree angle will give you
diagonal sensors as wel. This wil give a higer resolution in one direction,
but a lower resolution in the directions 90 degrees on that direction.
Fuji claimed that in our world the direction which fuji had the highest
resolution was also the direction that mattered. (I don't think so).



The distinction is more that very few amateur photographers know which
type of sensor mask is included in their camera. And so many other factors
affect image quality that it is largely irrelevant.

I totaly agree with that most filters are now RG GB they probably are
all very similar. So that processing is a bigger factor than the
RG GB and sensor together. (Offcourse taking sensors which are
developed years apart there is some difference).

So the filter is more important for the color than the sensor, but filters
are pretty much similar I guess.

ben


Regards,
Martin Brown



 




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