How should I permanently store digital photographs?

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:49:58 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

Digital data, by its very nature, is easy to back up.

Bill, you miss the point. The bits are easy to back up, but in the
context of archiving - real archiving as is done in the Library of
Congress and the British Library - the problem is the data format and
the longevity of the software used to interpret it.

The problems will come up in fifty years ("Hey, John. What was a
JPEG, all those years back? I've got one here and don't know what to
do with it") but I think I can try to choose an example that makes
sense even now. If I sent you a Displaywriter file on a 5 1/4"
diskette would you be able to realise the document in its original
format? Sure you could inspect the file with an editor (once you'd
found someone with a 5 1/4" floppy drive) and recover the _words_, but
the format might be important.

Your waspish rant against "professionals" rather ignores the fact that
what these people are paid for is to think about things from an
informed point of view and raise concerns that the rest of us might
completely ignore.
--

Henry Law Manchester, England

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:01:43 +0000, Henry Law
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:49:58 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

Digital data, by its very nature, is easy to back up.

Bill, you miss the point. The bits are easy to back up, but in the
context of archiving - real archiving as is done in the Library of
Congress and the British Library - the problem is the data format and
the longevity of the software used to interpret it.

No, it's not. The problem is that people have not done what's needed
to migrate the data. This is *NOT* a problem with the media.
it's easy to do. It's being done all the time (we migrate our data
from memory cards to our hard drives, then to CDs all the time).

The problems will come up in fifty years ("Hey, John. What was a
JPEG, all those years back? I've got one here and don't know what to
do with it") but I think I can try to choose an example that makes
sense even now. If I sent you a Displaywriter file on a 5 1/4"
diskette would you be able to realise the document in its original
format? Sure you could inspect the file with an editor (once you'd
found someone with a 5 1/4" floppy drive) and recover the _words_, but
the format might be important.

Why would you send me a Displaywriter file? Why haven you converted
it, if you felt it was worth keeping?
Do you see trhe point here? The fault for not being able to read that
file isn't mine, it's *yours*.

Your waspish rant against "professionals" rather ignores the fact that
what these people are paid for is to think about things from an
informed point of view and raise concerns that the rest of us might
completely ignore.

"Professionals" by definition, get *paid* for doing what they do. It
does not mean they are good at it.
There are far too many "professionals" who ge tpaid far too much for
what they do. The very fact that a "professional" says there's a
crisis doesn't mean there really is one; there's a very real
probability that the "professional" is looking for more ways to get
more money.
In this case, digital data is, by it's very nature, easy to copy and
migrate to new media. A "professional" saying it isn't doesn't make it
so.
--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:41:04 GMT, Confused
wrote:

The solution to data longevity: update the storage medium when
technology changes.

Indeed; there seems to be no other way. The expense needs to be built
into the plans, though. It's a zero-benefit task which means it
doesn't compete well with other requirements which appear to offer
immediate returns. That's true either in corporations or personally.


If that entails a data format change then add it
to the archive copy / verify process.

How would you work out whether there was a problem? And how would you
be certain that you were converting the object (image in the context
of this newsgroup) without losing anything? And how would you pick a
format to convert to? And again the time, or the money, needs to be
budgeted for that.

The point is, there is no problem.

Perhaps not; but neither I nor you has the knowledge to assert that
(though I mean no disrespect and am prepared to be corrected). On the
other hand Google for "digital preservation" and you will find serried
ranks of references to places where people who _have_ a lot of
knowledge, and who are paid to think about this kind of thing, are
quite concerned about the whole issue of preserving digital documents.
--

Henry Law Manchester, England

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:41:04 GMT, Confused
wrote:

The solution to data longevity: update the storage medium when
technology changes.

Indeed; there seems to be no other way. The expense needs to be built
into the plans, though. It's a zero-benefit task which means it
doesn't compete well with other requirements which appear to offer
immediate returns. That's true either in corporations or personally.


If that entails a data format change then add it
to the archive copy / verify process.

How would you work out whether there was a problem? And how would you
be certain that you were converting the object (image in the context
of this newsgroup) without losing anything? And how would you pick a
format to convert to? And again the time, or the money, needs to be
budgeted for that.

The point is, there is no problem.

Perhaps not; but neither I nor you has the knowledge to assert that
(though I mean no disrespect and am prepared to be corrected). On the
other hand Google for "digital preservation" and you will find serried
ranks of references to places where people who _have_ a lot of
knowledge, and who are paid to think about this kind of thing, are
quite concerned about the whole issue of preserving digital documents.
--

Henry Law Manchester, England

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:10:28 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:01:43 +0000, Henry Law
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:49:58 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

Digital data, by its very nature, is easy to back up.

Congress and the British Library - the problem is the data format and
the longevity of the software used to interpret it.

No, it's not. The problem is that people have not done what's needed
to migrate the data. This is *NOT* a problem with the media.
it's easy to do. It's being done all the time (we migrate our data
from memory cards to our hard drives, then to CDs all the time).

I completely agree: it's not a problem with the media and we do move
files all the time. We move a bag of bits, in a format known as JPEG
from one medium to another. What I'm talking about is what happens
after JPEG has been superseded and long forgotten.

sense even now. If I sent you a Displaywriter file on a 5 1/4"
diskette would you be able to realise the document in its original
format? Sure you could inspect the file with an editor (once you'd
found someone with a 5 1/4" floppy drive) and recover the _words_, but
the format might be important.

Why would you send me a Displaywriter file? Why haven you converted
it, if you felt it was worth keeping?

Because I don't care about it. In fact it's lying around in my attic
and I don't know it's there. But it contains the missing pass phrase
to the file which will allow you to claim your rightful inheritance of
seven squillion Hungarian Forints. Or maybe it contains photographic
records of plants I found in Elbonia ten years ago which -- if someone
were able to read the document -- can only now be used to cure some
dread disease. Or maybe it contains a photograph of Lord Lucan alive
and well and living in Elbonia which I -- being some dastardly
accomplice in his disappearance -- would destroy if I knew what was in
it. (And you, in this piece of creative whimsy, are a policeman, or a
journalist in search of a scoop).

Do you see trhe point here? The fault for not being able to read that
file isn't mine, it's *yours*.

See above. I don't care. Or I'm dead. Or out of my mind (some say
that's happened already).

"Professionals" by definition, get *paid* for doing what they do. It
does not mean they are good at it.

No; indeed. But I know more who are good at what they do but for whom
no funding can be found than I do charlatans. It doesn't really
happen all that much - though I'm sure you can find an example here
and there.

In this case, digital data is, by it's very nature, easy to copy and
migrate to new media. A "professional" saying it isn't doesn't make it
so.

I don't think you understand. I'm not disputing the fact that you can
shovel a bag of assorted 1s and 0s from one place to another; that is
- as you say - trivial. It's the *significance* of the 1s and 0s that
isn't so easy to preserve.
--

Henry Law Manchester, England

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:10:28 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:01:43 +0000, Henry Law
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:49:58 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

Digital data, by its very nature, is easy to back up.

Congress and the British Library - the problem is the data format and
the longevity of the software used to interpret it.

No, it's not. The problem is that people have not done what's needed
to migrate the data. This is *NOT* a problem with the media.
it's easy to do. It's being done all the time (we migrate our data
from memory cards to our hard drives, then to CDs all the time).

I completely agree: it's not a problem with the media and we do move
files all the time. We move a bag of bits, in a format known as JPEG
from one medium to another. What I'm talking about is what happens
after JPEG has been superseded and long forgotten.

sense even now. If I sent you a Displaywriter file on a 5 1/4"
diskette would you be able to realise the document in its original
format? Sure you could inspect the file with an editor (once you'd
found someone with a 5 1/4" floppy drive) and recover the _words_, but
the format might be important.

Why would you send me a Displaywriter file? Why haven you converted
it, if you felt it was worth keeping?

Because I don't care about it. In fact it's lying around in my attic
and I don't know it's there. But it contains the missing pass phrase
to the file which will allow you to claim your rightful inheritance of
seven squillion Hungarian Forints. Or maybe it contains photographic
records of plants I found in Elbonia ten years ago which -- if someone
were able to read the document -- can only now be used to cure some
dread disease. Or maybe it contains a photograph of Lord Lucan alive
and well and living in Elbonia which I -- being some dastardly
accomplice in his disappearance -- would destroy if I knew what was in
it. (And you, in this piece of creative whimsy, are a policeman, or a
journalist in search of a scoop).

Do you see trhe point here? The fault for not being able to read that
file isn't mine, it's *yours*.

See above. I don't care. Or I'm dead. Or out of my mind (some say
that's happened already).

"Professionals" by definition, get *paid* for doing what they do. It
does not mean they are good at it.

No; indeed. But I know more who are good at what they do but for whom
no funding can be found than I do charlatans. It doesn't really
happen all that much - though I'm sure you can find an example here
and there.

In this case, digital data is, by it's very nature, easy to copy and
migrate to new media. A "professional" saying it isn't doesn't make it
so.

I don't think you understand. I'm not disputing the fact that you can
shovel a bag of assorted 1s and 0s from one place to another; that is
- as you say - trivial. It's the *significance* of the 1s and 0s that
isn't so easy to preserve.
--

Henry Law Manchester, England

"Big Bill" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:01:43 +0000, Henry Law
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:49:58 -0700, Big Bill wrote:


The problem is that people have not done what's needed
to migrate the data. This is *NOT* a problem with the media.
it's easy to do. It's being done all the time (we migrate our data
from memory cards to our hard drives, then to CDs all the time).
snip
Do you see trhe point here? The fault for not being able to read that
file isn't mine, it's *yours*.

Think of all the invaluble forgotten images in dusty shoeboxes, waiting to
show the wold what the streets of London looked like 90 years ago, of how
people dressed at the turn of the century. The images of people famous and
not, dead for 100 years or more. The mundane snapshots that meant nothing at
the time to anyone not connected to the subjects that could now mean
everything to an archivist.
These images are perfectly usable as long as they where developed properly,
kept dark and dry and clear of fires. Digital media, not so. Might even be
difficult to tell what is an image -- CD's and DVD's all look the same, and
media cards already come in a huge array of shapes and sizes. Some image
formats are already passing into history.
I would not wish to be a museum curator in 2150.

MJ

mcgyverjones wrote:
"Big Bill" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:01:43 +0000, Henry Law
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:49:58 -0700, Big Bill
wrote:

The problem is that people have not done what's needed
to migrate the data. This is *NOT* a problem with the media.
it's easy to do. It's being done all the time (we migrate our data
from memory cards to our hard drives, then to CDs all the time).
snip
Do you see trhe point here? The fault for not being able to read that
file isn't mine, it's *yours*.

Think of all the invaluble forgotten images in dusty shoeboxes,
waiting to show the wold what the streets of London looked like 90
years ago, of how people dressed at the turn of the century. The
images of people famous and not, dead for 100 years or more. The
mundane snapshots that meant nothing at the time to anyone not
connected to the subjects that could now mean everything to an
archivist. These images are perfectly usable as long as they where
developed
properly, kept dark and dry and clear of fires. Digital media, not
so. Might even be difficult to tell what is an image -- CD's and
DVD's all look the same, and media cards already come in a huge array
of shapes and sizes. Some image formats are already passing into
history. I would not wish to be a museum curator in 2150.


Sad to think about.

By coincidence, I recently obtained a photo post card of London Bridge
made about ninety years ago (judging by the vehicles) and a month ago
took a digital photo of London Bridge in its current location/
configuration.

Which one will be available for perusal a hundred years hence?

The Old Photo is a ~3000x scan Saved-To-Web full-size at 30 PS quality,
379KB, (dare I say) amazing detail in the river-side buildings. I _LOVE_
this stuff.

The New Snapshot is a 3MP image messed-with and reduced, 60KB, kinda
blah, except that it is the real, actual same set of stones, dismantled,
shipped, and reassembled. This stuff makes me feel uneasy.

Oldie:
http://www.fototime.com/DC8A3192F0DA2D6/orig.jpg

Newie:
http://www.fototime.com/42C9476A18C4B08/orig.jpg

Resp'y

--
Frank ess

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:26:58 +0000, Henry Law
wrote:

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:10:28 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:01:43 +0000, Henry Law
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:49:58 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

Digital data, by its very nature, is easy to back up.

Congress and the British Library - the problem is the data format and
the longevity of the software used to interpret it.

No, it's not. The problem is that people have not done what's needed
to migrate the data. This is *NOT* a problem with the media.
it's easy to do. It's being done all the time (we migrate our data
from memory cards to our hard drives, then to CDs all the time).

I completely agree: it's not a problem with the media and we do move
files all the time. We move a bag of bits, in a format known as JPEG
from one medium to another. What I'm talking about is what happens
after JPEG has been superseded and long forgotten.

Jpeg won't just disappear; if something does supercede it, there will
be utilities to convert between formats, *just as there are today*. It
will not be a problem except to those who *make* it a problem.

sense even now. If I sent you a Displaywriter file on a 5 1/4"
diskette would you be able to realise the document in its original
format? Sure you could inspect the file with an editor (once you'd
found someone with a 5 1/4" floppy drive) and recover the _words_, but
the format might be important.

Why would you send me a Displaywriter file? Why haven you converted
it, if you felt it was worth keeping?

Because I don't care about it. In fact it's lying around in my attic
and I don't know it's there. But it contains the missing pass phrase
to the file which will allow you to claim your rightful inheritance of
seven squillion Hungarian Forints. Or maybe it contains photographic
records of plants I found in Elbonia ten years ago which -- if someone
were able to read the document -- can only now be used to cure some
dread disease. Or maybe it contains a photograph of Lord Lucan alive
and well and living in Elbonia which I -- being some dastardly
accomplice in his disappearance -- would destroy if I knew what was in
it. (And you, in this piece of creative whimsy, are a policeman, or a
journalist in search of a scoop).

:-) OK, in some sort of strange reality, I might need it.
In *this* reality, I don't.

Do you see trhe point here? The fault for not being able to read that
file isn't mine, it's *yours*.

See above. I don't care. Or I'm dead. Or out of my mind (some say
that's happened already).

"Professionals" by definition, get *paid* for doing what they do. It
does not mean they are good at it.

No; indeed. But I know more who are good at what they do but for whom
no funding can be found than I do charlatans. It doesn't really
happen all that much - though I'm sure you can find an example here
and there.

We can find example of almost anything. Sometimes they are the
exception that proves the rule, so to speak.

In this case, digital data is, by it's very nature, easy to copy and
migrate to new media. A "professional" saying it isn't doesn't make it
so.

I don't think you understand. I'm not disputing the fact that you can
shovel a bag of assorted 1s and 0s from one place to another; that is
- as you say - trivial. It's the *significance* of the 1s and 0s that
isn't so easy to preserve.

Why not?
In the case of the Displaywriter file, it's *your* file. When you had
the opportunity to convert it, why didn't you?
If I now *need* that file, I won't curse anyone but you for not
converting it when you had the opportunity.
See? It's the fault of the one who *has* the data for not converting
it when the opportunity presents itself. Formats don't go away
overnight. Conversion is easy, if its done in a timely fashion.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:26:58 +0000, Henry Law
wrote:

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 11:10:28 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 10:01:43 +0000, Henry Law
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 02:49:58 -0700, Big Bill wrote:

Digital data, by its very nature, is easy to back up.

Congress and the British Library - the problem is the data format and
the longevity of the software used to interpret it.

No, it's not. The problem is that people have not done what's needed
to migrate the data. This is *NOT* a problem with the media.
it's easy to do. It's being done all the time (we migrate our data
from memory cards to our hard drives, then to CDs all the time).

I completely agree: it's not a problem with the media and we do move
files all the time. We move a bag of bits, in a format known as JPEG
from one medium to another. What I'm talking about is what happens
after JPEG has been superseded and long forgotten.

Jpeg won't just disappear; if something does supercede it, there will
be utilities to convert between formats, *just as there are today*. It
will not be a problem except to those who *make* it a problem.

sense even now. If I sent you a Displaywriter file on a 5 1/4"
diskette would you be able to realise the document in its original
format? Sure you could inspect the file with an editor (once you'd
found someone with a 5 1/4" floppy drive) and recover the _words_, but
the format might be important.

Why would you send me a Displaywriter file? Why haven you converted
it, if you felt it was worth keeping?

Because I don't care about it. In fact it's lying around in my attic
and I don't know it's there. But it contains the missing pass phrase
to the file which will allow you to claim your rightful inheritance of
seven squillion Hungarian Forints. Or maybe it contains photographic
records of plants I found in Elbonia ten years ago which -- if someone
were able to read the document -- can only now be used to cure some
dread disease. Or maybe it contains a photograph of Lord Lucan alive
and well and living in Elbonia which I -- being some dastardly
accomplice in his disappearance -- would destroy if I knew what was in
it. (And you, in this piece of creative whimsy, are a policeman, or a
journalist in search of a scoop).

:-) OK, in some sort of strange reality, I might need it.
In *this* reality, I don't.

Do you see trhe point here? The fault for not being able to read that
file isn't mine, it's *yours*.

See above. I don't care. Or I'm dead. Or out of my mind (some say
that's happened already).

"Professionals" by definition, get *paid* for doing what they do. It
does not mean they are good at it.

No; indeed. But I know more who are good at what they do but for whom
no funding can be found than I do charlatans. It doesn't really
happen all that much - though I'm sure you can find an example here
and there.

We can find example of almost anything. Sometimes they are the
exception that proves the rule, so to speak.

In this case, digital data is, by it's very nature, easy to copy and
migrate to new media. A "professional" saying it isn't doesn't make it
so.

I don't think you understand. I'm not disputing the fact that you can
shovel a bag of assorted 1s and 0s from one place to another; that is
- as you say - trivial. It's the *significance* of the 1s and 0s that
isn't so easy to preserve.

Why not?
In the case of the Displaywriter file, it's *your* file. When you had
the opportunity to convert it, why didn't you?
If I now *need* that file, I won't curse anyone but you for not
converting it when you had the opportunity.
See? It's the fault of the one who *has* the data for not converting
it when the opportunity presents itself. Formats don't go away
overnight. Conversion is easy, if its done in a timely fashion.

--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"