A Photography forum. PhotoBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PhotoBanter.com forum » Digital Photography » Digital SLR Cameras
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Why all the noise about noise?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 30th 09, 07:37 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Steven Wandy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 36
Default Why all the noise about noise?

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 06:13:06 -0700 (PDT), eNo
wrote:

Along with rethinking my obsession with sharpness, I am also
reconsidering my outlook on noise. Yes, if I can take steps to avoid
noise that's a good thing, but if I don't completely succeed, should I
beat myself up or toss the image? Is it really that terminal to have
noise in an image, even noise visible at regular display resolutions?
See my thoughts on the subject at:

http://esfotoclix.com/blog1/?p=707

~~~
eNo
http://esfotoclix.com


Because some people are not happy unless they have something to
complain about? Or to be able to say "My camera is better at
this....."?

Personally, considering what I remember my old ISO 400 and up films
used to look (slides) and print like, I think the vast majority of
todays better (read "above most P&S cameras") handle it pretty well.
But as Rich pointed out - if the noise detracts from the image it is
no good. But if not - who cares.
Steve
  #2  
Old September 30th 09, 09:20 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default Why all the noise about noise?

Steven Wandy wrote:
On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 06:13:06 -0700 (PDT), eNo
wrote:

Along with rethinking my obsession with sharpness, I am also
reconsidering my outlook on noise. Yes, if I can take steps to avoid
noise that's a good thing, but if I don't completely succeed, should I
beat myself up or toss the image? Is it really that terminal to have
noise in an image, even noise visible at regular display resolutions?
See my thoughts on the subject at:

http://esfotoclix.com/blog1/?p=707

~~~
eNo
http://esfotoclix.com


Because some people are not happy unless they have something to
complain about? Or to be able to say "My camera is better at
this....."?

Personally, considering what I remember my old ISO 400 and up films
used to look (slides) and print like, I think the vast majority of
todays better (read "above most P&S cameras") handle it pretty well.
But as Rich pointed out - if the noise detracts from the image it is
no good. But if not - who cares.


A lot of people care, esp. those who shoot nature and sports. Higher
ISO with less noise allows them more latitude to get usable images that
please much and have little noise to distract. Allows deeper DOF as
well which with long lenses, in dim light is pretty hard even with high
ISO...

Things will always improve. Nobody said we have to stick with film
performance.

Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the
mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but
cannot be removed very easily.
  #3  
Old October 1st 09, 07:44 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
David J Taylor[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 451
Default Why all the noise about noise?

"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
[]
Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance the
mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in photoshop but
cannot be removed very easily.


Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital
Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than
"removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G

David

  #4  
Old October 1st 09, 07:57 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Floyd L. Davidson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,138
Default Why all the noise about noise?

"David J Taylor" wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
[]
Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can
even enhance the mood of an image... of course noise
can always be added in photoshop but cannot be removed
very easily.


Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital
Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than
"removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G


And don't all of them have plugins that can add "film
grain" too?

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)
  #5  
Old October 1st 09, 08:07 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
J. Clarke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,690
Default Why all the noise about noise?

David J Taylor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
[]
Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance
the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in
photoshop but cannot be removed very easily.


Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital
Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than
"removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G


Noise removal comes at the expense of sharpness though.

  #6  
Old October 1st 09, 09:17 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
David J Taylor[_11_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 451
Default Why all the noise about noise?

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
[]
Noise removal comes at the expense of sharpness though.


Depending on the image, the effects of limited noise reduction may not
include a subjective reduction in sharpness. I find that you see what the
image looks like before and after the process, and decide which you
prefer. BTW: in Paint Shop Pro, for example, there is an option for
setting the sharpness change after the noise reduction process.

Please don't think that I'm advocating that all noise reduction is
perfect - far from it. I sometimes find that converting a noisy image
into greyscale (black and white) can enhance its appearance - for a more
"newsy" look. I don't ever recall adding noise, though.

David

  #7  
Old October 1st 09, 12:35 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Original Discoveries
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Why all the noise about noise?

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 08:17:39 GMT, "David J Taylor"

I don't ever recall adding noise, though.



Try adding a known noise to a noisy image some time. The human mind is a
wonderful thing. You will find that adding a known noise to an unknown
noise can actually enhance details hidden in the unknown noise.

A good analogy using another type of human perception (as opposed to
visual) would be the sensation of an itch. If you leave that itch alone it
will overpower your senses. The only thing you can think about and perceive
is that "itch noise" in your nervous system. However, if you scratch the
area, adding a wider and stronger region of known noise, the original "itch
noise" disappears in the added noise. The original itch still remains but
you don't realize it. It is now hidden in all the sensory noise that you
added. Effectively canceling out the itch's "noise". This is precisely why
scratching an itch works.

The same holds true for noise in a sound signal. If information is being
sent by sound but has a lot of noise in it, adding a known white-noise to
the noisy sound signal can effectively mask the unknown noise. Making the
information contained in that sound signal audible and intelligible.

This was a discovery of my own one time when in the kitchen, having turned
up a noisy band on the short-wave radio to listen to it while I was busy
cooking. The voices from the radio in the living-room were unintelligible
from the kitchen, the noise in the sound was just too great. By chance, on
the way back to turn off the radio, I first turned on the forced-air
heater-blower for my fireplace. The white-noise from the fan added to the
unintelligible radio transmission made the radio's sound signal amazingly
clear and understandable. I went back to the kitchen as intended and
listened to the broadcast as clear as anything. The noise in the radio
sound was still present. If I went nearer the radio I could hear the noise
the same as before. But the added white-noise from the fireplace fan
between me and the radio masked the radio's noise.

I have since expounded on this discovery about noise vs. signal to include
all other human senses. Adding a known noise to an unknown noise to
increase the available amount of valid information works with sound, sight,
touch, and I suspect taste and smell too.

People who dwell on "noise" in a signal have no idea what they are talking
about. They themselves are more of useless noise than the noise itself that
they constantly and noisily rail against.

  #8  
Old October 1st 09, 10:41 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default Why all the noise about noise?

David J Taylor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
[]
Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance
the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in
photoshop but cannot be removed very easily.


Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital
Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than
"removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G


Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party
s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out?

I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things
too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas.
Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...).
  #9  
Old October 1st 09, 10:41 PM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default Why all the noise about noise?

J. Clarke wrote:
David J Taylor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
[]
Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance
the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in
photoshop but cannot be removed very easily.

Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital
Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than
"removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G


Noise removal comes at the expense of sharpness though.


I'd use the term "fine detail" instead of sharpness though it amounts to
much the same thing.
  #10  
Old October 2nd 09, 02:17 AM posted to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Chris Malcolm[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,142
Default Why all the noise about noise?

Alan Browne wrote:
David J Taylor wrote:
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
[]
Having said that, noise that looks like film grain can even enhance
the mood of an image... of course noise can always be added in
photoshop but cannot be removed very easily.


Alan, even my Paint Shop Pro from a few versions back has a "Digital
Camera Noise Removal" feature (I prefer "reduction" rather than
"removal") - surely PhotoShop has something similar? G


Good one. Are you happy? No it doesn't. You have to buy 3rd party
s/w. Maybe Adobe are being bribed to keep it out?


I tried one of the noise reduction programs and found it to make things
too smooth (in plain areas) and wipe out fine detail in other areas.
Gave up on it. (Noise Ninja I believe...).


That's what Neat Image does on its default settings. But it also has a
great variety of adjustable parameters to allow you to fine tune the
trade offs between various aspects of noise reduction, fine detail
preservation, sharpening, etc., plus a variety of prepackaged custom
sets and the ability to create your own. Takes quite a bit of
learning, but well worth while. Different cameras, different lenses,
and different kinds of subject and lighting can call for quite large
differences in noise reduction adjustments.

Doesn't Noise Ninja offer customisable noise reduction
parameterisation?

--
Chris Malcolm
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lets talk about noise. No I mean camera making noise. Robert Coe Digital SLR Cameras 8 April 30th 08 03:13 PM
Lets talk about noise. No I mean camera making noise. C J Campbell Digital SLR Cameras 0 April 23rd 08 05:40 PM
Noise Reduction software (Neat Image, Noise Ninja, etc.) John Navas[_2_] Digital Photography 0 October 19th 07 04:22 PM
Noise Ninja custom noise print- worth the effort for stacked photo?? Jason Sommers Digital Photography 5 January 19th 05 12:26 AM
Noise Ninja custom noise print- worth the effort for stacked photo?? Jason Sommers Digital Photography 0 January 18th 05 07:01 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 PhotoBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.