Seeking Consistent Color -- CS3, Zoomify export

I'm using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is
going smoothly.

I have an image, Export... Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the
resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I
saw in photoshop. It's a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards
ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

-=- Rick

Mo I'm doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and
the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor
calibration.

Here's a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the
zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.

--
Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

Richard Karash wrote:

viewing the resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift
from what I saw in photoshop. It's a fall foliage image, and the shift
is towards ugly greens.

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.

There's *no* color shift. Except for noise differences (due to
different compressions), the images are identical.

Screenshot of above webpage, moved part of Zoomify-image over
your screenshot. Outlined by these blue bars, else you'd
never find it.
http://weissel.smugmug.com/photos/220120314-X3.jpg

Your problem is Mac and Safari:
http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2007/02...-mac-on-drugs/

-Wolfgang

"Richard Karash" wrote in message
...

I'm using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is
going smoothly.

I have an image, Export... Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the
resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I
saw in photoshop. It's a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards
ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

-=- Rick

Mo I'm doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and
the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor
calibration.

Here's a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the
zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.

--
Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

colors are the same (but saving for web would change them to srgb anyway)
(zoomify , is it a color managed program?)
bottom image is blurry
(too much compressionor not good compression settings, compressing already
compressed files)

KatWoman wrote:
"Richard Karash" wrote
I'm using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is
going smoothly.

I have an image, Export... Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the
resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I
saw in photoshop. It's a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards
ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

Mo I'm doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and
the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor
calibration.

Here's a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the
zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.

colors are the same (but saving for web would change them to srgb anyway)

CS save for web unfortunately is not that smart, at least with CS1.

(zoomify , is it a color managed program?)
bottom image is blurry
(too much compressionor not good compression settings, compressing already
compressed files)

In article , KatWoman
wrote:

"Richard Karash" wrote in message
...

I'm using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is
going smoothly.

I have an image, Export... Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the
resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I
saw in photoshop. It's a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards
ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

-=- Rick

Mo I'm doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and
the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor
calibration.

Here's a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the
zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.

colors are the same (but saving for web would change them to srgb anyway)
(zoomify , is it a color managed program?)
bottom image is blurry
(too much compressionor not good compression settings, compressing already
compressed files)

Thanks Kat and Wolfgang...

I'm worried about the color, not the compression/blur.

Here are two files that look exactly alike when displayed in PhotoShop
(red flowers, leaves on birches, color of the rock), but they look
different when opened in Safari. What causes the different appearance
in Safari and how can I control it to give the same appearance?

http://www.2under.net/private/TestZo...estZoomify.jpg
http://2under.net/private/TestZoomif...oup0/2-1-0.jpg

(The first is my Photoshop jpg, the second is a 256x256 tile extracted
by Zoomify export.)

Two two files have the same color when opened in photoshop, as Kat and
Wolfgang said. But, they certainly look different when opened in Safari
or Firefox. What's up?

Color space? Both are Adobe RGB (1998). Next, look at Profiles...

Ahh... For the tile it's "Don't Color Manage this Document."
(Photoshop... Edit... Assign Profile...). The larger file,
TestZoomify.jpg says "Working RGB: Adobe RGB 1998".

Testing... Open the little tile in Photoshop. Then Edit... Assign
Profile... Working RGB: Adobe RGB (1998); Save... jpg, high quality.
Now, open this file in Safari... Bingo! Just what I want. I conclude
my problem is that Zoomify Export saves it's tiles without a profile.

"Save for Web"... Checking the box "ICC Profile," I get the colors I
want opening the tile in Safari. Save for Web, high quality give me an
the same size file as Zoomify Export.

So far, so good. I have tiles that display properly in Safari.

But, the Zoomify viewer still give the muddly/green look. Ugh. Now what?

So, obviously my vivid reds have something to do with the ICC Profile
in the tiles and how that's displayed. I have 256x256 tiles that
display in Safari the way I want, but not in the Zoomify viewer. Does
anyone have any suggestions?

-=- Rick

--
Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

Richard Karash wrote:
In article , KatWoman
wrote:

"Richard Karash" wrote in message
...
I'm using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is
going smoothly.

I have an image, Export... Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the
resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I
saw in photoshop. It's a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards
ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

-=- Rick

Mo I'm doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and
the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor
calibration.

Here's a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the
zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.
colors are the same (but saving for web would change them to srgb anyway)
(zoomify , is it a color managed program?)
bottom image is blurry
(too much compressionor not good compression settings, compressing already
compressed files)

Thanks Kat and Wolfgang...

I'm worried about the color, not the compression/blur.

Here are two files that look exactly alike when displayed in PhotoShop
(red flowers, leaves on birches, color of the rock), but they look
different when opened in Safari. What causes the different appearance
in Safari and how can I control it to give the same appearance?

http://www.2under.net/private/TestZo...estZoomify.jpg
http://2under.net/private/TestZoomif...oup0/2-1-0.jpg

(The first is my Photoshop jpg, the second is a 256x256 tile extracted
by Zoomify export.)

Two two files have the same color when opened in photoshop, as Kat and
Wolfgang said. But, they certainly look different when opened in Safari
or Firefox. What's up?

Color space? Both are Adobe RGB (1998). Next, look at Profiles...

Ahh... For the tile it's "Don't Color Manage this Document."
(Photoshop... Edit... Assign Profile...). The larger file,
TestZoomify.jpg says "Working RGB: Adobe RGB 1998".

Testing... Open the little tile in Photoshop. Then Edit... Assign
Profile... Working RGB: Adobe RGB (1998); Save... jpg, high quality.
Now, open this file in Safari... Bingo! Just what I want. I conclude
my problem is that Zoomify Export saves it's tiles without a profile.

"Save for Web"... Checking the box "ICC Profile," I get the colors I
want opening the tile in Safari. Save for Web, high quality give me an
the same size file as Zoomify Export.

So far, so good. I have tiles that display properly in Safari.

But, the Zoomify viewer still give the muddly/green look. Ugh. Now what?

So, obviously my vivid reds have something to do with the ICC Profile
in the tiles and how that's displayed.

Images which are adobeRGB lose their saturated reds when viewed as if
they were sRGB.

I have 256x256 tiles that
display in Safari the way I want, but not in the Zoomify viewer. Does
anyone have any suggestions?

Convert to sRGB (and I guess make sure to attach that profile for safari
browsing) or do some browser sniffing and offer up adobeRGB images for
safari surfers.

In article , Paul
Furman wrote:

Richard Karash wrote:
So, obviously my vivid reds have something to do with the ICC Profile
in the tiles and how that's displayed.
....snip...

Images which are adobeRGB lose their saturated reds when viewed as if
they were sRGB.

Thanks... That helps.

And... Images lose their saturated reds when saved "Don't Color Manage
this Document" and then displayed by a browser. (Somehow, when opened
in Photoshop, the reds are still there.)

I have 256x256 tiles that
display in Safari the way I want, but not in the Zoomify viewer. Does
anyone have any suggestions?

Convert to sRGB (and I guess make sure to attach that profile for safari
browsing) or do some browser sniffing and offer up adobeRGB images for
safari surfers.

I conclude that having a profile makes a big effect; which profile is a
lesser effect.

Safari really loses the sat reds if the file is saved without a
profile. Same for Firefox. I'll assume for now it's common to all
browsers. I conclude that good practice is to make sure there's a
profile in any jpg (Edit... Assign Profile, and watch in the Save
dialogs).

Which profile? I've tested it both ways. Safari does a pretty good job
when the jpg is saved with either profile. Maybe some differences; I
think when the profile is Adobe RGB, Safari displays it a little more
vividly and it might be more true if saved with a profile sRGB, but
this is pretty subtle, not the bigger shift I'm struggling with.

Further, even when I add a profile to each of the Zoomify Export jpgs,
the Zoomify viewer loses the sat reds. The result looks like a browser
displaying the jpg with no profile. I conclude that the free Zoomify
viewer just doesn't do color management and that this will be a problem
for fall-foliage and other images with saturated reds.

Hope this may be helpful to someone else struggling with the loss of
saturated reds for no-profile images in a browser and for all images in
Zoomify Export from CS3.

Again, the demo is: http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

-=- Rick

--
Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

"Richard Karash" wrote in message
...

I'm using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is
going smoothly.

I have an image, Export... Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the
resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I
saw in photoshop. It's a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards
ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

I'm not in a position to run Zoomify at the moment, but this is almost
certainly a problem with embedded profiles. Open the images in Photoshop,
and convert to the sRGB profile before re-saving. Then they will appear as
they should on the web.
--
Mike Russell - www.curvemeister.com

"Richard Karash" wrote in message
...

I'm using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is
going smoothly.
....
[re "drab color" example at http://2under.net/private/TestZoomi ]
How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

It turns out that both Zoomify and Safari are available as free downloads
for Windows.

Zoomify, in particular, is an interesting app that allows you to create a
pan and zoom flash presentation of an image.
http://zoomify.com/

When it comes to color saturation, passing out non sRGB images is a losing
proposition. Since Zoomify, is not a "color aware" application, the final
flash file does not include an embedded profile. In light of this, my
recommendation is to use Photoshop's Convert to Profile to convert to sRGB
before exporting the image with Zoomify. Then the image will have the
colors you intended for the vast majority of web viewers. As it is, almost
everyone out there will see the "drab green" version of your image.

FYI - there appear to be two windows based color aware browsers:
Safari public beta:
www.apple.com/safari/download

For the curious: untested Firefox beta nightly builds (also color aware):
http://www.mozilla.org/developer/#builds
--
Mike Russell - www.curvemeister.com

In article , Mike
Russell -MOVE wrote:

"Richard Karash" wrote in message
...

I'm using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is
going smoothly.
...
[re "drab color" example at http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify ]

(Corrected URL in the line above)

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

It turns out that both Zoomify and Safari are available as free downloads
for Windows.

Zoomify, in particular, is an interesting app that allows you to create a
pan and zoom flash presentation of an image.
http://zoomify.com/

And, a version of Zoomify is built-in with CS3.

When it comes to color saturation, passing out non sRGB images is a losing
proposition. Since Zoomify, is not a "color aware" application, the final
flash file does not include an embedded profile.

The Flash file is a viewer that works with 256x256 jpg "tiles"; even
when I add an embedded profile to each of the tiles, the Zoomify viewer
does nothing different. I conclude the viewer is "not color-aware."

...In light of this, my
recommendation is to use Photoshop's Convert to Profile to convert to sRGB
before exporting the image with Zoomify. Then the image will have the
colors you intended for the vast majority of web viewers. As it is, almost
everyone out there will see the "drab green" version of your image.

FYI - there appear to be two windows based color aware browsers:
Safari public beta:
www.apple.com/safari/download

For the curious: untested Firefox beta nightly builds (also color aware):
http://www.mozilla.org/developer/#builds

Thanks Mike, for the additional folowup.

I followed your suggestion... Convert... sRGB, then File... Export...
Zoomify. The result is much better, delivers the saturated reds that I
need for the fall foliage images.

Your advice, "for web, use sRGB" makes a real difference and sounds
right.

There is a lot going on here, especially in the saturated reds.

1. My original test http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify When viewed
in a "non-color aware" browser, the top and bottom look the same (drab,
lost the sat reds). Safari is color aware; the released version of
Firefox is not. Explorer is not. Now I understand the comments from Kat
and Wolfgang, "The colors are the same." Most people looking at my
test wouldn't see anything. Just a drab image.

2. The color differences I'm seeing are most visible in the saturated
reds.

3. In Photoshop, Convert... sRGB, and save as high qual jpg. The
colors change a little (bit more of sat reds); that's OK, we are
changing profiles. Save and view the result in Safari, see even more
sat Reds. Why does the same file (which includes sRGB profile) look
different in Safari vs. Photoshop?

4. Should we generally save image for the web WITH an embedded
profile? For a non-color aware browser the profile makes no difference.
I assume yes, so it will help with a color aware browser.

5. Zoomify Viewer is not-color-aware, even when when run in a
color-aware browser. To use Zoomify, prepare the image for a non-color
aware browser, then Export... Zoomify.

6. My test image, converted to sRGB, save as jpg, exported by
Zoomify... now has too-much sat red when viewed in Win/Explorer, but
that's on an uncalibrated monitor, so I'm not sure.

With all this, here's my net-net for working with images for display on
the web and/or in Zoomify:

- Do my photo work in Photoshop, working space Adobe RGB, prepare my
images for print and other use. Save as PSD.
- Convert image to sRGB. Back off the saturated reds just a bit. Save
as jpg with profile.
- Export... Zoomify.
- Test the result on a couple of monitors, from Mac/Safari and from
Win/Explorer.
- Adjust if necessary.

Thank again, Mike. Help like this is what makes USENET great.

-=- Rick

--
Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com