How reviewers shade the truth

frederick wrote:
l e o wrote:

I guess David knows the difference, but from what frederick wrote with
wrong concepts, he's a newbie. I have no doubt that the Pananonic FZ20
is a capable camera for majority of people but don't count on it in
more demanding situations and definitely no need to mention it at all
when the OP was not mentioning P&S.

I couldn't be bothered writing a thesis.
If you don't understand the fundamentals, then a dslr is probably a
waste - unless you plan to learn. Good P&S cameras are fantastic. I am
an ancient grey-haired newbie - a photographer for 40 years. I still
have stuff to learn. I use a P&S and a dslr. I actually agree with the
OP in that many reviews suck. People ask me what camera they should buy.
It would be nice to be able to direct them to a no nonsense website
that accurately summarises the advantages and drawbacks of the various
types of digital cameras. Reviews are often close to a complete waste
of time - as they focus on minor differences between models - facts that
become obsolete within a short period of time. Seldom are issues like
composition using DOF mentioned. In dslr reviews probably because the
reviewer thinks it's a given that anyone considering a dslr would know
about this - despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. Have you ever
seen a review of some great new P&S with a "fast" f2 lens with a german
name actually bothering to mention not to get too excited - as f2 on a
P&S is equivalent to about f16 on a dslr? For the intended market for
these cameras, the buyers don't know the difference.


Hi frederick,

I am sorry that I got the names mixed up. In my original reply, it
should be "Jack Rosier," not you.

What you say is totally correct. It makes me think that my Chevy Malibu
(which is a free used car btw) is a very nice car. It's comfortable, and
reliable, after 130K miles. I like it better than the VW Jetta I have.
Maybe I should tell everyone that they don't need any fancy cars. This
is THE ONE for everyone. LOL...

"l e o" wrote in message
ink.net...
Jack Rosier wrote:
"Jack Rosier" wrote in message
...

"RichA" wrote in message
. ..

I checked out four magazine reviews.

SNIP

None of these reviewers outright lied about anything. But they
configure the reviews with the clear intention to "sell" you the
product instead of providing a scrupulously honest examination of the
camera in question.
-Rich

The larger the cost, the more careful the research should be up front.
I spent all of my free time for about 3 weeks checking online reviews,

user

reviews and lurking on many forums before buying my current camera.
I read literally hundreds of reviews, compared specs, checked out sample
pictures and asked LOTS of questions.
I started out wanting a 8MP DSLR. Then I found that the pros seemed to
prefer the image quality of the 5MP cameras over the 8MP cameras.
Then I read a lot of NG's where the main topic of conversation is how to
clean or keep the sensor clean and how to get a decent quality lens for

less

than the price of a new car.
My choice was a Panasonic FZ20. I've had it for a couple of months and

LOVE

it!
Great quality images (when I do my part).
Full manual controls when I need them, Program mode when I want it.
Menus and controls are mostly intuitive and simple.
Handheld shots at 432mm! Who would of thought?
Cost about a third of what the DSLR would have for the same capability.



Howabout that for stirring up a hornet's nest!
You DSLR guys really should calm down and try to have some fun, like the
rest of us.
FWIW, I had a couple of top-end Nikon SLR's a couple of decades ago.
They were absolutely the best thing short of medium format.
When I quit using them to make money, they were too valuable to keep
around
for making casual snaphots, so they were passed on to a working
professional
photg.
Point being, I have a pretty good idea of the distinction between an SLR
and
a "superzoom".
That being said, I stand resolutely behind every word in my original
post
(donning asbestos suit).
carry on....


When you say "I started out wanting a 8MP DSLR. Then I found that the
pros seemed to prefer the image quality of the 5MP cameras over the 8MP
cameras," without acknowledging the picture quality of an 8MP in a
22.5mmx15mm sensor is vastly different from an 8MP in a 8.8mmx6.6mm
sensor, you're showing that you don't know much about digital cameras
and you might as well think RAW is the same as JPEG. If you're impressed
by the FZ20 and think that's is all you ever need, you're in the wrong
group and in fact you ARE in the wrong group.

Leo,
My original message was in reference to the original post regarding the
reliability/veracity of camera reviews.
My example of my personal experience in this matter was intended to be a
brief summary of some of the issues that lead me to purchase a "superzoom"
rather than a DSLR ( thus apparently joining the Great Unwashed).
In the interest of brevity/readability, I refrained from including the more
mind-numbing details of my research. It would have been OT.
I did err in comparing the capability of the FZ20 with a DSLR without
specifying that my personal needs do not require some of the advanced
features of the DSLR, such as raw format and poster-sized prints.
I have a recently printed 11x14 from my FZ20 which I would not be ashamed to
show to anyone. The color rendition and range of luminance are a credit to
the folks at Panasonic. The rest was a combination of dumb luck, happy
circumstance, and just a touch of sharpening in PP (I won't tell you what
editor, your BP is already way too high :)
My (current) point is, the ZSLR or superzoom is EXACTLY the right tool for
MY needs. When I NEED a DSLR, I'll buy one.
BTW, this is (one of several) RIGHT groups for me because I frequently find
very useful discussions of PP, workflow, and other photography techniques
that even the Great Unwashed may benefit from. I particularly enjoy Richa's
attempts to generate interesting threads.
Have a nice day (really).

"Jack Rosier" wrote in message
...

BTW, this is (one of several) RIGHT groups for me because I frequently
find
very useful discussions of PP, workflow, and other photography techniques
that even the Great Unwashed may benefit from. I particularly enjoy
Richa's
attempts to generate interesting threads.


So you're basically saying that zslr users are just point-and-shooters who
don't care about their photos?

Greg

Jack Rosier wrote:
"l e o" wrote in message
ink.net...

Jack Rosier wrote:

"Jack Rosier" wrote in message
...


"RichA" wrote in message
m...


I checked out four magazine reviews.

SNIP

None of these reviewers outright lied about anything. But they
configure the reviews with the clear intention to "sell" you the
product instead of providing a scrupulously honest examination of the
camera in question.
-Rich

The larger the cost, the more careful the research should be up front.
I spent all of my free time for about 3 weeks checking online reviews,

user


reviews and lurking on many forums before buying my current camera.
I read literally hundreds of reviews, compared specs, checked out sample
pictures and asked LOTS of questions.
I started out wanting a 8MP DSLR. Then I found that the pros seemed to
prefer the image quality of the 5MP cameras over the 8MP cameras.
Then I read a lot of NG's where the main topic of conversation is how to
clean or keep the sensor clean and how to get a decent quality lens for

less


than the price of a new car.
My choice was a Panasonic FZ20. I've had it for a couple of months and

LOVE


it!
Great quality images (when I do my part).
Full manual controls when I need them, Program mode when I want it.
Menus and controls are mostly intuitive and simple.
Handheld shots at 432mm! Who would of thought?
Cost about a third of what the DSLR would have for the same capability.



Howabout that for stirring up a hornet's nest!
You DSLR guys really should calm down and try to have some fun, like the
rest of us.
FWIW, I had a couple of top-end Nikon SLR's a couple of decades ago.
They were absolutely the best thing short of medium format.
When I quit using them to make money, they were too valuable to keep

around

for making casual snaphots, so they were passed on to a working

professional

photg.
Point being, I have a pretty good idea of the distinction between an SLR

and

a "superzoom".
That being said, I stand resolutely behind every word in my original

post

(donning asbestos suit).
carry on....


When you say "I started out wanting a 8MP DSLR. Then I found that the
pros seemed to prefer the image quality of the 5MP cameras over the 8MP
cameras," without acknowledging the picture quality of an 8MP in a
22.5mmx15mm sensor is vastly different from an 8MP in a 8.8mmx6.6mm
sensor, you're showing that you don't know much about digital cameras
and you might as well think RAW is the same as JPEG. If you're impressed
by the FZ20 and think that's is all you ever need, you're in the wrong
group and in fact you ARE in the wrong group.


Leo,
My original message was in reference to the original post regarding the
reliability/veracity of camera reviews.
My example of my personal experience in this matter was intended to be a
brief summary of some of the issues that lead me to purchase a "superzoom"
rather than a DSLR ( thus apparently joining the Great Unwashed).
In the interest of brevity/readability, I refrained from including the more
mind-numbing details of my research. It would have been OT.
I did err in comparing the capability of the FZ20 with a DSLR without
specifying that my personal needs do not require some of the advanced
features of the DSLR, such as raw format and poster-sized prints.
I have a recently printed 11x14 from my FZ20 which I would not be ashamed to
show to anyone. The color rendition and range of luminance are a credit to
the folks at Panasonic. The rest was a combination of dumb luck, happy
circumstance, and just a touch of sharpening in PP (I won't tell you what
editor, your BP is already way too high :)
My (current) point is, the ZSLR or superzoom is EXACTLY the right tool for
MY needs. When I NEED a DSLR, I'll buy one.
BTW, this is (one of several) RIGHT groups for me because I frequently find
very useful discussions of PP, workflow, and other photography techniques
that even the Great Unwashed may benefit from. I particularly enjoy Richa's
attempts to generate interesting threads.
Have a nice day (really).


If you can restrain yourself from discussing your FZ20 here, you'd okay.
I wouldn't discuss about my Sony V1 in this group. There are a P&S and
the general r.p.digital for that matters.

When you're here, you'd have to put off with people talking about RAW,
sharpest lenses, nitpicking about the best bokeh, color, contrast of the
lenses, sharpening techniques. I had printed a very sharp 8x10 photo
from a 3MP JPEG taken from an Olympus and know that it is good enough
for many people. Plus, I'd bet 99.99% of the people who have a dSLR
would have at least one P&S camera, SO WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HOW YOU
COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT FZ20 IS ALL YOU EVER NEED!

And cost isn't really the issue here as you can have great picture
quality with Rebel XT + 50/1.8. And even a 75-300 delivers very good result.

l e o wrote:
Jack Rosier wrote:

"l e o" wrote in message
ink.net...

Jack Rosier wrote:

"Jack Rosier" wrote in message
...


"RichA" wrote in message
...


I checked out four magazine reviews.


SNIP

None of these reviewers outright lied about anything. But they
configure the reviews with the clear intention to "sell" you the
product instead of providing a scrupulously honest examination of the
camera in question.
-Rich


The larger the cost, the more careful the research should be up front.
I spent all of my free time for about 3 weeks checking online reviews,


user


reviews and lurking on many forums before buying my current camera.
I read literally hundreds of reviews, compared specs, checked out
sample
pictures and asked LOTS of questions.
I started out wanting a 8MP DSLR. Then I found that the pros seemed to
prefer the image quality of the 5MP cameras over the 8MP cameras.
Then I read a lot of NG's where the main topic of conversation is
how to
clean or keep the sensor clean and how to get a decent quality lens
for


less


than the price of a new car.
My choice was a Panasonic FZ20. I've had it for a couple of months and


LOVE


it!
Great quality images (when I do my part).
Full manual controls when I need them, Program mode when I want it.
Menus and controls are mostly intuitive and simple.
Handheld shots at 432mm! Who would of thought?
Cost about a third of what the DSLR would have for the same
capability.



Howabout that for stirring up a hornet's nest!
You DSLR guys really should calm down and try to have some fun, like
the
rest of us.
FWIW, I had a couple of top-end Nikon SLR's a couple of decades ago.
They were absolutely the best thing short of medium format.
When I quit using them to make money, they were too valuable to keep


around

for making casual snaphots, so they were passed on to a working


professional

photg.
Point being, I have a pretty good idea of the distinction between an
SLR


and

a "superzoom".
That being said, I stand resolutely behind every word in my original


post

(donning asbestos suit).
carry on....



When you say "I started out wanting a 8MP DSLR. Then I found that the
pros seemed to prefer the image quality of the 5MP cameras over the 8MP
cameras," without acknowledging the picture quality of an 8MP in a
22.5mmx15mm sensor is vastly different from an 8MP in a 8.8mmx6.6mm
sensor, you're showing that you don't know much about digital cameras
and you might as well think RAW is the same as JPEG. If you're impressed
by the FZ20 and think that's is all you ever need, you're in the wrong
group and in fact you ARE in the wrong group.



Leo,
My original message was in reference to the original post regarding the
reliability/veracity of camera reviews.
My example of my personal experience in this matter was intended to be a
brief summary of some of the issues that lead me to purchase a
"superzoom"
rather than a DSLR ( thus apparently joining the Great Unwashed).
In the interest of brevity/readability, I refrained from including the
more
mind-numbing details of my research. It would have been OT.
I did err in comparing the capability of the FZ20 with a DSLR without
specifying that my personal needs do not require some of the advanced
features of the DSLR, such as raw format and poster-sized prints.
I have a recently printed 11x14 from my FZ20 which I would not be
ashamed to
show to anyone. The color rendition and range of luminance are a
credit to
the folks at Panasonic. The rest was a combination of dumb luck, happy
circumstance, and just a touch of sharpening in PP (I won't tell you what
editor, your BP is already way too high :)
My (current) point is, the ZSLR or superzoom is EXACTLY the right tool
for
MY needs. When I NEED a DSLR, I'll buy one.
BTW, this is (one of several) RIGHT groups for me because I frequently
find
very useful discussions of PP, workflow, and other photography techniques
that even the Great Unwashed may benefit from. I particularly enjoy
Richa's
attempts to generate interesting threads.
Have a nice day (really).



If you can restrain yourself from discussing your FZ20 here, you'd okay.
I wouldn't discuss about my Sony V1 in this group. There are a P&S and
the general r.p.digital for that matters.

When you're here, you'd have to put off with people talking about RAW,
sharpest lenses, nitpicking about the best bokeh, color, contrast of the
lenses, sharpening techniques. I had printed a very sharp 8x10 photo
from a 3MP JPEG taken from an Olympus and know that it is good enough
for many people. Plus, I'd bet 99.99% of the people who have a dSLR
would have at least one P&S camera, SO WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HOW YOU
COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT FZ20 IS ALL YOU EVER NEED!

And cost isn't really the issue here as you can have great picture
quality with Rebel XT + 50/1.8. And even a 75-300 delivers very good
result.


As far as RichA's comment go, I'd say there's no big deal about those
magazines' testing. The point is to test the camera, not the combined
quality of the kit lenses & cameras. It's alright because they do use
the middle of the road lenses but they do need to clarify that in the
reports. If you use the example of Nikon's D50 vs D70s and test only the
kit lenses, I'd bet you'd find quite a dramatic difference between 18-55
and 18-70 but since they use the same sensor, the difference of the
cameras should be minimal.

l e o wrote:
David J Taylor wrote:
[]
I do completely agree with you about dynamic range, and the
limitations introduced with today's small-sensor cameras, but I
don't want to go back to something as big as 35mm. Perhaps the 4/3
system will eventually suit me.
[]
BTW, the 4/3 format doesn't demonstrate it to be any smaller. The
Olympus E300 is roughly the same size as Pentax *ist DS and HEAVIER.
The only good thing I see is 4:3 ratio and 2x opening that minimizes
vignetting at the corners. However, I hate pictures in 4:3 ratio.

Yes, that's why I said "eventually". The present implementation of 4/3
doesn't impress me.

Cheers,
David

David J Taylor wrote:
l e o wrote:

David J Taylor wrote:

[]

I do completely agree with you about dynamic range, and the
limitations introduced with today's small-sensor cameras, but I
don't want to go back to something as big as 35mm. Perhaps the 4/3
system will eventually suit me.

[]

BTW, the 4/3 format doesn't demonstrate it to be any smaller. The
Olympus E300 is roughly the same size as Pentax *ist DS and HEAVIER.
The only good thing I see is 4:3 ratio and 2x opening that minimizes
vignetting at the corners. However, I hate pictures in 4:3 ratio.


Yes, that's why I said "eventually". The present implementation of 4/3
doesn't impress me.

Cheers,
David

The lens mount is about the same size as an APS-C camera. If you talk
about size strictly, it has no advantage over other d-SLR
cameras...unless you like 4/3 format for some other reasons, like 4:3
ratio or appreciate the fact that it won't be a Canon or Nikon.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 06:36:54 GMT, l e o wrote:

Jack Rosier wrote:
"l e o" wrote in message
ink.net...

Jack Rosier wrote:

"Jack Rosier" wrote in message
...


"RichA" wrote in message
om...


I checked out four magazine reviews.

SNIP

None of these reviewers outright lied about anything. But they
configure the reviews with the clear intention to "sell" you the
product instead of providing a scrupulously honest examination of the
camera in question.
-Rich

The larger the cost, the more careful the research should be up front.
I spent all of my free time for about 3 weeks checking online reviews,

user


reviews and lurking on many forums before buying my current camera.
I read literally hundreds of reviews, compared specs, checked out sample
pictures and asked LOTS of questions.
I started out wanting a 8MP DSLR. Then I found that the pros seemed to
prefer the image quality of the 5MP cameras over the 8MP cameras.
Then I read a lot of NG's where the main topic of conversation is how to
clean or keep the sensor clean and how to get a decent quality lens for

less


than the price of a new car.
My choice was a Panasonic FZ20. I've had it for a couple of months and

LOVE


it!
Great quality images (when I do my part).
Full manual controls when I need them, Program mode when I want it.
Menus and controls are mostly intuitive and simple.
Handheld shots at 432mm! Who would of thought?
Cost about a third of what the DSLR would have for the same capability.



Howabout that for stirring up a hornet's nest!
You DSLR guys really should calm down and try to have some fun, like the
rest of us.
FWIW, I had a couple of top-end Nikon SLR's a couple of decades ago.
They were absolutely the best thing short of medium format.
When I quit using them to make money, they were too valuable to keep

around

for making casual snaphots, so they were passed on to a working

professional

photg.
Point being, I have a pretty good idea of the distinction between an SLR

and

a "superzoom".
That being said, I stand resolutely behind every word in my original

post

(donning asbestos suit).
carry on....


When you say "I started out wanting a 8MP DSLR. Then I found that the
pros seemed to prefer the image quality of the 5MP cameras over the 8MP
cameras," without acknowledging the picture quality of an 8MP in a
22.5mmx15mm sensor is vastly different from an 8MP in a 8.8mmx6.6mm
sensor, you're showing that you don't know much about digital cameras
and you might as well think RAW is the same as JPEG. If you're impressed
by the FZ20 and think that's is all you ever need, you're in the wrong
group and in fact you ARE in the wrong group.


Leo,
My original message was in reference to the original post regarding the
reliability/veracity of camera reviews.
My example of my personal experience in this matter was intended to be a
brief summary of some of the issues that lead me to purchase a "superzoom"
rather than a DSLR ( thus apparently joining the Great Unwashed).
In the interest of brevity/readability, I refrained from including the more
mind-numbing details of my research. It would have been OT.
I did err in comparing the capability of the FZ20 with a DSLR without
specifying that my personal needs do not require some of the advanced
features of the DSLR, such as raw format and poster-sized prints.
I have a recently printed 11x14 from my FZ20 which I would not be ashamed to
show to anyone. The color rendition and range of luminance are a credit to
the folks at Panasonic. The rest was a combination of dumb luck, happy
circumstance, and just a touch of sharpening in PP (I won't tell you what
editor, your BP is already way too high :)
My (current) point is, the ZSLR or superzoom is EXACTLY the right tool for
MY needs. When I NEED a DSLR, I'll buy one.
BTW, this is (one of several) RIGHT groups for me because I frequently find
very useful discussions of PP, workflow, and other photography techniques
that even the Great Unwashed may benefit from. I particularly enjoy Richa's
attempts to generate interesting threads.
Have a nice day (really).


If you can restrain yourself from discussing your FZ20 here, you'd okay.
I wouldn't discuss about my Sony V1 in this group. There are a P&S and
the general r.p.digital for that matters.

When you're here, you'd have to put off with people talking about RAW,
sharpest lenses, nitpicking about the best bokeh, color, contrast of the
lenses, sharpening techniques. I had printed a very sharp 8x10 photo
from a 3MP JPEG taken from an Olympus and know that it is good enough
for many people. Plus, I'd bet 99.99% of the people who have a dSLR
would have at least one P&S camera, SO WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HOW YOU
COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT FZ20 IS ALL YOU EVER NEED!

And cost isn't really the issue here as you can have great picture
quality with Rebel XT + 50/1.8. And even a 75-300 delivers very good result.

Well, at least mentioning it is something because I can guarantee no
one at the photo stores is telling their customer to buy 50mm primes
for a DSLR (unless it's a macro lens) and nearly none of the buyers
of cheap DSLRs want to use a short prime lens unless it's a wide
angle. Cheap zooms are dominating the middle ground so the 50-150mm
prime is basically dead.
-Rich

"l e o" wrote in message
k.net...

snip
........................................ SO WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HOW YOU
COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT FZ20 IS ALL YOU EVER NEED!

Leo,
All that yelling hurts my eyes.
Did you take a vote while I was at work or are you speaking for the 1/2% of
the RPDS-S NG readers who have a mental major malfunction at the mention of
a you-know-what (don't want to wind you up again).
It would be easier to have a polite conversation if you could just calm
yourself down a little.
As to "putting up" with people discussing the fine points of bokeh, color,
contrast of the
lenses, sharpening techniques, well, that's why I'm here.
I don't think that the image from a camera-without-a-swinging-mirror (that's
a you-know-what) will benefit any less from good PP than an image from a
more noble origin.
Best regards, Jack

Jack Rosier wrote:
"l e o" wrote in message
k.net...

snip
....................................... SO WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HOW YOU

COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT FZ20 IS ALL YOU EVER NEED!


Leo,
All that yelling hurts my eyes.
Did you take a vote while I was at work or are you speaking for the 1/2% of
the RPDS-S NG readers who have a mental major malfunction at the mention of
a you-know-what (don't want to wind you up again).
It would be easier to have a polite conversation if you could just calm
yourself down a little.
As to "putting up" with people discussing the fine points of bokeh, color,
contrast of the
lenses, sharpening techniques, well, that's why I'm here.
I don't think that the image from a camera-without-a-swinging-mirror (that's
a you-know-what) will benefit any less from good PP than an image from a
more noble origin.
Best regards, Jack

NO, I AM NOT ANGRY. THERE ARE, HOWEVER, OTHER FORUMS (THREE OF THEM)
THAT DEAL WITH CAMERAS WITHOUT A MIRROR BOX.