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DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 16th 07, 11:59 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Neil Harrington[_2_]
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Posts: 699
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?


"GeraldG." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:43:11 -0500, "Neil Harrington"

wrote:


"Helmsman3" wrote in message
. ..
On 15 Nov 2007 09:03:18 -0800, Bill Tuthill wrote:

Arguments over relative merits of DSLR vs P&S digicams
occupy a plurality of current traffic volume on r.p.d.

In many ways it reminds me of the film vs digital debate
of the last many years.

DSLR partisans seem like the defenders of film, because
they don't have a lot of firm evidence that their workflow
is superior, except at high ISO or some arcane usage.

I know DSLRs are selling well, but do these flame wars
indicate the beginning of the end?

Pretty much.

Let us for a moment presume there is a sealed-lens/sensor design that
doesn't
allow in any dust. Takes images in absolute silence. The lens range is a
full
180-degree fish-eye to an extremely long zoom, all with either an
aperture
or
sensor ISO high enough to capture even the most difficult of hand-held
situations in any settings.


Pie in the sky. You will never see such a lens.


The body is of a titanium shell for extreme
durability. Few moving parts allows operation in deep sub-zero
environments. Let
us also presume that the electronic viewfinder (LCD and EVF) is high
resolution
enough that its display, feedback, and articulation abilities far exceed
anything that has been implemented so far, optically or otherwise. Lets
also
presume that these P&S camera designers also had the foresight to
include
the
options of shooting in the IR and UV portions of the spectrum too. This
of
course is dependent on an EVF system because no optical viewfinder in
the
world
can accomplish this. Oh what the heck, while we're at it throw in high
quality
video and CD quality stereo sound recording too so you don't even need
your
camcorder as an accessory anymore. Why not.


Why not indeed. Why not "while we're at it" put flapping wings on the
thing
as well, so it can just fly out the window and take pictures on its own,
without intruding on your daydreams?


Poof! There goes any need for the cumbersome lens interchangeability,
size,
weight, noise, dust, high-cost, focal-plane shutter limitations,
inaccurate and
dim OVF, and all the other drawbacks to using any DSLR.

Surprisingly I've already found all of these conditions met in only 2
P&S
cameras (minus the UV capability and a slightly higher resolution EVF)
with only
2 inexpensive, small, and light-weight adapter lenses. I've already had
thousands of photos published with this combo. Not one person yet can
tell
that
they were done with P&S gear. A whole kit of 1 camera + 2 lenses fitting
into
one large pocket. If these two P&S camera's features were combined
nobody
would
think twice about buying a DSLR. I certainly never do.


guffaw!

Please stop. You're getting coffee on my monitor screen.


"You can't blow the dust away without making a lot of fools cough." -
Prince
Philip Duke of Edinburgh


"A wet duck never flies at night." -- Anonymous


  #12  
Old November 17th 07, 12:26 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Serge Desplanques
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Posts: 82
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On 2007-11-16 14:45:24 -0700, John Navas said:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:19:28 -0500, "Neil Harrington"
wrote in
:

"John Navas" wrote in message
...


Don't look now, but "prosumer" level compacts by Panasonic equipped with
superb Leica lenses are going strong.


I'm glad to hear it. Panasonic does make an excellent product. I've had
an FZ15 for a few years now and I agree, the Leica lens (probably
should be "Leica" in quotes, but still) is excellent. On my model it's
35-420mm (equiv.) stabilized and f/2.8 *all the way* which is very nice
indeed.


Since the lens is designed by Leica and built to Leica standards, I'd
personally say it's a Leica (without quotes).


I have a distant friend of long standing who was bitching about the
difference between modern "Leica" lenses versus the twehty- to
forty-year-old ones he still uses on his RFs (I think he has about six
bodies from the screw mounts up through an R8 digital) at about the
same time I was being disappointed by the "Carl Zeiss" 12x zoom on my
Sony P&S...I am pleased to see that Nikon has kept up the optical
excellence of lenses made for them in Thailand and, in a few cases,
China...I have had Nikon zooms that were under $100 (used, from eBay)
that ran rings around that "Zeiss"...personal experience talking, not
Nikon Acquisition Syndrome...well, OK, both...

Still, there's only so much you can do with that small CCD, and the
very best EVF you can get is no joy compared to a real mirror reflex
viewinder. These I think are the chief shortcomings of the "prosumer"
compact compared to a DSLR.


Current EVF have gotten very good, and can now do things that can't be
done with an optical viewfinder, including 100% image, visible image in
very low light, and magnification while focusing, not to mention image
replay.


How's the view in strong sunlight?
--
"Our ignorance is not so vast as our failure to use what we know."

  #13  
Old November 17th 07, 01:52 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Neil Harrington[_2_]
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Posts: 699
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?


"John Navas" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:19:28 -0500, "Neil Harrington"
wrote in
:

"John Navas" wrote in message
. ..


Don't look now, but "prosumer" level compacts by Panasonic equipped with
superb Leica lenses are going strong.


I'm glad to hear it. Panasonic does make an excellent product. I've had an
FZ15 for a few years now and I agree, the Leica lens (probably should be
"Leica" in quotes, but still) is excellent. On my model it's 35-420mm
(equiv.) stabilized and f/2.8 *all the way* which is very nice indeed.


Since the lens is designed by Leica and built to Leica standards, I'd
personally say it's a Leica (without quotes).


Well, "designed by Leica" is one thing and "built to Leica standards" is
another. You think E. Leitz has real Leitz employees scrupulously inspecting
every "Leica" lens made somewhere in eastern or southeastern Asia?

But Leica or "Leica," it's an excellent lens anyway and I said so. Panasonic
makes good stuff.


Still, there's only so much you can do with that small CCD, and the very
best EVF you can get is no joy compared to a real mirror reflex viewinder.
These I think are the chief shortcomings of the "prosumer" compact
compared
to a DSLR.


Current EVF have gotten very good, and can now do things that can't be
done with an optical viewfinder, including 100% image, visible image in
very low light, and magnification while focusing, not to mention image
replay.


You bet. Now if they could only do half those things with anything
approaching the clarity of a real reflex viewfinder system, what a wonderful
world this would be.

Neil


  #14  
Old November 17th 07, 01:55 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Neil Harrington[_2_]
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Posts: 699
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?


"GeraldG." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:43:11 -0500, "Neil Harrington"

wrote:


"Helmsman3" wrote in message
. ..


BTW, how many different names are you posting under?

Haven't hit on one you really like yet?


  #15  
Old November 17th 07, 02:44 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Wilba[_2_]
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Posts: 360
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

John Navas wrote:

Current EVF have gotten very good, and can now do things that can't be
done with an optical viewfinder, including 100% image, visible image in
very low light, and magnification while focusing, not to mention image
replay.


You left out the best one of all - histogram preview. :-)


  #16  
Old November 17th 07, 05:31 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
Tony Polson
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Posts: 1,194
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

"Neil Harrington" wrote:

Well, "designed by Leica" is one thing and "built to Leica standards" is
another. You think E. Leitz has real Leitz employees scrupulously inspecting
every "Leica" lens made somewhere in eastern or southeastern Asia?



These issues were discussed on a Leica forum about a year ago and
answers were obtained from Leica in Solms.

Apparently the lenses were not designed by Leica, but by Panasonic.
Leica suggested some improvements to the designs and helped put in
place a quality control system that would ensure a consistent product,
but that is all.

Leica is too small a company to develop digital point and shoot
cameras on its own, so a partner is essential. Fuji proved to be a
poor choice. Panasonic is proving to be a better choice, with strong
sales of Panasonic digital cameras (P&S and DSLR) with Leica branding.

Panasonic got to use the Leica name on its lenses as a quid pro quo
for allowing Leica to sell Panasonic digital cameras under the Leica
brand. The agreement benefits both parties, unlike Leica's previous
arrangement with Fuji which was very one-sided and ended in acrimony.

Of course the M8 digital rangefinder camera is a completely separate
development. One wonders if a collaboration with Panasonic might have
produced a better product, however.

  #17  
Old November 17th 07, 07:24 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
John Navas[_2_]
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Posts: 3,956
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:26:01 -0700, Serge Desplanques
wrote in
2007111616260116807%desplanques@volumeen:

On 2007-11-16 14:45:24 -0700, John Navas said:


Since the lens is designed by Leica and built to Leica standards, I'd
personally say it's a Leica (without quotes).


I have a distant friend of long standing who was bitching about the
difference between modern "Leica" lenses versus the twehty- to
forty-year-old ones he still uses on his RFs (I think he has about six
bodies from the screw mounts up through an R8 digital) ...


With all due respect, I think that's just good old days syndrome --
current Leica lenses consistently score excellent in tests.

Current EVF have gotten very good, and can now do things that can't be
done with an optical viewfinder, including 100% image, visible image in
very low light, and magnification while focusing, not to mention image
replay.


How's the view in strong sunlight?


Just fine -- it's in an eyepiece -- but even the display on the back of
the camera is clearly viewable.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
  #18  
Old November 17th 07, 07:30 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
John Navas[_2_]
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Posts: 3,956
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:52:05 -0500, "Neil Harrington"
wrote in
:

"John Navas" wrote in message
news


Since the lens is designed by Leica and built to Leica standards, I'd
personally say it's a Leica (without quotes).


Well, "designed by Leica" is one thing and "built to Leica standards" is
another. You think E. Leitz has real Leitz employees scrupulously inspecting
every "Leica" lens made somewhere in eastern or southeastern Asia?


They are actually made in Japan, and Leica does indeed have people
inspecting the manufacturing process. It's no different for any other
brand being made in an overseas factory. My IBM ThinkPad was still an
IBM ThinkPad even though it was built in an overseas contract facility.

Current EVF have gotten very good, and can now do things that can't be
done with an optical viewfinder, including 100% image, visible image in
very low light, and magnification while focusing, not to mention image
replay.


You bet. Now if they could only do half those things with anything
approaching the clarity of a real reflex viewfinder system, what a wonderful
world this would be.


Seems pretty clear to me. That's as compared to optical viewfinders on
my Canon SLRs.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
  #19  
Old November 17th 07, 07:48 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
John Navas[_2_]
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Posts: 3,956
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 04:31:54 +0000, Tony Polson wrote in
:

"Neil Harrington" wrote:

Well, "designed by Leica" is one thing and "built to Leica standards" is
another. You think E. Leitz has real Leitz employees scrupulously inspecting
every "Leica" lens made somewhere in eastern or southeastern Asia?


These issues were discussed on a Leica forum about a year ago and
answers were obtained from Leica in Solms.

Apparently the lenses were not designed by Leica, but by Panasonic.
Leica suggested some improvements to the designs and helped put in
place a quality control system that would ensure a consistent product,
but that is all.


Any proof of that? Industry people I respect tell me the lenses are in
fact designed by Leica, and that Leica monitors the quality control.

Moreover tests of these lenses confirm that they do measure up to Leica
standards; e.g., "everything you'd expect from Leica glass"
http://www.popphoto.com/cameralenses/4597/lens-test-panasonic-leica-d-summilux-25mm-f14-af.html

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
  #20  
Old November 17th 07, 07:57 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.digital.zlr,rec.photo.misc
John Navas[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,956
Default DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:48:14 GMT, John Navas
wrote in
:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 04:31:54 +0000, Tony Polson wrote in
:

"Neil Harrington" wrote:

Well, "designed by Leica" is one thing and "built to Leica standards" is
another. You think E. Leitz has real Leitz employees scrupulously inspecting
every "Leica" lens made somewhere in eastern or southeastern Asia?


These issues were discussed on a Leica forum about a year ago and
answers were obtained from Leica in Solms.

Apparently the lenses were not designed by Leica, but by Panasonic.
Leica suggested some improvements to the designs and helped put in
place a quality control system that would ensure a consistent product,
but that is all.


Any proof of that? Industry people I respect tell me the lenses are in
fact designed by Leica, and that Leica monitors the quality control.

Moreover tests of these lenses confirm that they do measure up to Leica
standards; e.g., "everything you'd expect from Leica glass"
http://www.popphoto.com/cameralenses/4597/lens-test-panasonic-leica-d-summilux-25mm-f14-af.html


p.s. My own checking suggests confusion between Leica-branded lenses
and Lumix-branded lenses, which are different, with the latter not being
as good as the former.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 




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