[SI] XXXV (old stuff) Alan's comments

In article , says...
Most people did it in the camera rather than in the darkroom, by using
this special film called "black-and-white", which desatured the color
rather thoroughly. However, if you *did* have a color negative and
wanted a desaturated print, Kodak makes a paper (Panalure) that lets
you do that (I've printed quite a few newspaper prints of engagement
photos on it in my time).

Finally, I've also desaturated a color picture by rephotographing a
print or slide onto B&W film.

To be fair, I think Alan's main complaint is with the "selective" nature
of my desaturation. Namely, I sucked out almost all of the cyan and
magenta drastically from the image and toned the green down. Thus, the
image has a really 'washed out' look that may or may not be possible to
recreate in the chemical darkroom, but is certainly possible with hand-
painting a black and white image, as Ken pointed out.

Since a lot of my background is in graphic design and printing work, I
know how to create an image like my photo using traditional lithographic
print methods. Basically, you could make the false colors by changing
inks, separating the image differently or constructing masks for the
different colors. Pretty simple stuff that showed up in a lot of
product packaging in the 1950s and 1960s.
--
http://www.pbase.com/bcbaird/

In article , says...
Most people did it in the camera rather than in the darkroom, by using
this special film called "black-and-white", which desatured the color
rather thoroughly. However, if you *did* have a color negative and
wanted a desaturated print, Kodak makes a paper (Panalure) that lets
you do that (I've printed quite a few newspaper prints of engagement
photos on it in my time).

Finally, I've also desaturated a color picture by rephotographing a
print or slide onto B&W film.

To be fair, I think Alan's main complaint is with the "selective" nature
of my desaturation. Namely, I sucked out almost all of the cyan and
magenta drastically from the image and toned the green down. Thus, the
image has a really 'washed out' look that may or may not be possible to
recreate in the chemical darkroom, but is certainly possible with hand-
painting a black and white image, as Ken pointed out.

Since a lot of my background is in graphic design and printing work, I
know how to create an image like my photo using traditional lithographic
print methods. Basically, you could make the false colors by changing
inks, separating the image differently or constructing masks for the
different colors. Pretty simple stuff that showed up in a lot of
product packaging in the 1950s and 1960s.
--
http://www.pbase.com/bcbaird/

Brian C. Baird choreographed a chorus line of high-kicking electrons to
spell out:

Again, the "rulz" are just there are a general guideline - there is
always going to be disagreements, but there's no use trying to exclude,
berate or otherwise single out those who use methods you might disagree
with. I think the important thing is disclosure, and I disclose all
methods I use.

I agree with that.


--
__ A L L D O N E! B Y E B Y E!
(__ * _ _ _ _
__)|| | |(_)| \ "...and then, the squirrels attacked."

Brian C. Baird choreographed a chorus line of high-kicking electrons to
spell out:

Again, the "rulz" are just there are a general guideline - there is
always going to be disagreements, but there's no use trying to exclude,
berate or otherwise single out those who use methods you might disagree
with. I think the important thing is disclosure, and I disclose all
methods I use.

I agree with that.


--
__ A L L D O N E! B Y E B Y E!
(__ * _ _ _ _
__)|| | |(_)| \ "...and then, the squirrels attacked."

Brian C. Baird writes:

In article , says...
Most people did it in the camera rather than in the darkroom, by using
this special film called "black-and-white", which desatured the color
rather thoroughly. However, if you *did* have a color negative and
wanted a desaturated print, Kodak makes a paper (Panalure) that lets
you do that (I've printed quite a few newspaper prints of engagement
photos on it in my time).

Finally, I've also desaturated a color picture by rephotographing a
print or slide onto B&W film.

To be fair, I think Alan's main complaint is with the "selective" nature
of my desaturation. Namely, I sucked out almost all of the cyan and
magenta drastically from the image and toned the green down. Thus, the
image has a really 'washed out' look that may or may not be possible to
recreate in the chemical darkroom, but is certainly possible with hand-
painting a black and white image, as Ken pointed out.

Being fair is good.

To really match that effect, dye-transfer printing would do the job.
Or fully desaturate and then hand-color selectively. Dye-transfer is
a perfectly traditional darkroom print-making technique (if not much
practiced these days).

Since a lot of my background is in graphic design and printing work, I
know how to create an image like my photo using traditional lithographic
print methods. Basically, you could make the false colors by changing
inks, separating the image differently or constructing masks for the
different colors. Pretty simple stuff that showed up in a lot of
product packaging in the 1950s and 1960s.

You can also get an effect something like that by just letting the
prints age for a few decades :-).

Or weeks, using the right inkjet materials :-).
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

Brian C. Baird writes:

In article , says...
Most people did it in the camera rather than in the darkroom, by using
this special film called "black-and-white", which desatured the color
rather thoroughly. However, if you *did* have a color negative and
wanted a desaturated print, Kodak makes a paper (Panalure) that lets
you do that (I've printed quite a few newspaper prints of engagement
photos on it in my time).

Finally, I've also desaturated a color picture by rephotographing a
print or slide onto B&W film.

To be fair, I think Alan's main complaint is with the "selective" nature
of my desaturation. Namely, I sucked out almost all of the cyan and
magenta drastically from the image and toned the green down. Thus, the
image has a really 'washed out' look that may or may not be possible to
recreate in the chemical darkroom, but is certainly possible with hand-
painting a black and white image, as Ken pointed out.

Being fair is good.

To really match that effect, dye-transfer printing would do the job.
Or fully desaturate and then hand-color selectively. Dye-transfer is
a perfectly traditional darkroom print-making technique (if not much
practiced these days).

Since a lot of my background is in graphic design and printing work, I
know how to create an image like my photo using traditional lithographic
print methods. Basically, you could make the false colors by changing
inks, separating the image differently or constructing masks for the
different colors. Pretty simple stuff that showed up in a lot of
product packaging in the 1950s and 1960s.

You can also get an effect something like that by just letting the
prints age for a few decades :-).

Or weeks, using the right inkjet materials :-).
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: http://noguns-nomoney.com/ http://www.dd-b.net/carry/
Pics: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

Alan Browne writes:


Ken Nadvornick wrote:


On the other hand, if the problem here is that some SI participants want to
change the Rulz to simply cut down or eliminate entirely any digitally
captured or manipulated images, then that is another story entirely. But
until those changes are put into place, just not liking Brian's digital
technique - which, I'm sorry, is a simulation of what can easily be
performed using "traditional photographic processes" - seems to me to be
insufficient grounds for the abuse being heaped on him for a simple photo
submission.

See McLeod's post on the subject (and others), desaturating a print in
the manner at issue is neither common, easy or traditional in the
color darkroom.


Most people did it in the camera rather than in the darkroom, by using
this special film called "black-and-white", which desatured the color
rather thoroughly. However, if you *did* have a color negative and
wanted a desaturated print, Kodak makes a paper (Panalure) that lets
you do that (I've printed quite a few newspaper prints of engagement
photos on it in my time).

Finally, I've also desaturated a color picture by rephotographing a
print or slide onto B&W film.

You seem to have a very limited view of what is possible and
traditional in darkroom work.

I certainly don't know every trick of the trade and nor do I care
to, however the techniques you refer to were practiced by what
percentage of the very small percentage of people who did their
own color darkroom work? Would someone with Mr. Baird's, er,
dimension in photography likely do this if even if he did do
darkroom work? ... in color? ... I hardly put the chances higher
than an ice cube on Venus.



--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

Alan Browne writes:


Ken Nadvornick wrote:


On the other hand, if the problem here is that some SI participants want to
change the Rulz to simply cut down or eliminate entirely any digitally
captured or manipulated images, then that is another story entirely. But
until those changes are put into place, just not liking Brian's digital
technique - which, I'm sorry, is a simulation of what can easily be
performed using "traditional photographic processes" - seems to me to be
insufficient grounds for the abuse being heaped on him for a simple photo
submission.

See McLeod's post on the subject (and others), desaturating a print in
the manner at issue is neither common, easy or traditional in the
color darkroom.


Most people did it in the camera rather than in the darkroom, by using
this special film called "black-and-white", which desatured the color
rather thoroughly. However, if you *did* have a color negative and
wanted a desaturated print, Kodak makes a paper (Panalure) that lets
you do that (I've printed quite a few newspaper prints of engagement
photos on it in my time).

Finally, I've also desaturated a color picture by rephotographing a
print or slide onto B&W film.

You seem to have a very limited view of what is possible and
traditional in darkroom work.

I certainly don't know every trick of the trade and nor do I care
to, however the techniques you refer to were practiced by what
percentage of the very small percentage of people who did their
own color darkroom work? Would someone with Mr. Baird's, er,
dimension in photography likely do this if even if he did do
darkroom work? ... in color? ... I hardly put the chances higher
than an ice cube on Venus.



--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

Alan Browne writes:


Ken Nadvornick wrote:


On the other hand, if the problem here is that some SI participants want to
change the Rulz to simply cut down or eliminate entirely any digitally
captured or manipulated images, then that is another story entirely. But
until those changes are put into place, just not liking Brian's digital
technique - which, I'm sorry, is a simulation of what can easily be
performed using "traditional photographic processes" - seems to me to be
insufficient grounds for the abuse being heaped on him for a simple photo
submission.

See McLeod's post on the subject (and others), desaturating a print in
the manner at issue is neither common, easy or traditional in the
color darkroom.


Most people did it in the camera rather than in the darkroom, by using
this special film called "black-and-white", which desatured the color
rather thoroughly. However, if you *did* have a color negative and
wanted a desaturated print, Kodak makes a paper (Panalure) that lets
you do that (I've printed quite a few newspaper prints of engagement
photos on it in my time).

Finally, I've also desaturated a color picture by rephotographing a
print or slide onto B&W film.

You seem to have a very limited view of what is possible and
traditional in darkroom work.

I certainly don't know every trick of the trade and nor do I care
to, however the techniques you refer to were practiced by what
percentage of the very small percentage of people who did their
own color darkroom work? Would someone with Mr. Baird's, er,
dimension in photography likely do this if even if he did do
darkroom work? ... in color? ... I hardly put the chances higher
than an ice cube on Venus.



--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

McLeod wrote:



On the other hand, doing what he did with a B&W print and Marshall's
pencils or oils would take about 10 minutes and look almost exactly
the same.

Just shoot me.

--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--